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Post by makofan on Mar 24, 2008 7:49:00 GMT -6
I was thinking of those dreaded monsters like wights and wraiths that drain levels. In my world without clerics, how would you handle these terrors? Well how about, when they hit, instead of draining a level, they drain 1000-6000 experience points (1d6x1000)? They'd still be nasty, but at least you could take your chances. Tougher undead could roll 2d6 for experience drain.
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Post by brumbar on Mar 24, 2008 10:14:10 GMT -6
One way to handle it would be to make the level drain temporary and the recovery would be 1-2 weeks of bed rest per level lost.
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Post by makofan on Mar 24, 2008 10:15:28 GMT -6
pah - temporary schmemporary
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Post by foster1941 on Mar 24, 2008 10:23:01 GMT -6
In a world without clerics you wouldn't handle them and they'd be that much more terrifying!
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Post by coffee on Mar 24, 2008 12:39:43 GMT -6
You'd really want to use these sparingly, or else you'd get a reputation as a 'killer DM.'
Of course, if the players just didn't learn, it'd be their own fault...
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Post by makofan on Mar 24, 2008 13:03:14 GMT -6
At higher levels, it would be more fair. Nothing sucks more than your 11th level fighter getting drained to level 9 - there goes 250,000 experience!
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on Mar 27, 2008 4:47:42 GMT -6
book keeping is my only complaint with level drain. It is darned frightening as a player to face level draining undead and I just love mixing up the undead now and again. Toss a wight or two in with a pack of ghouls and watch the fun that follows.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2013 5:05:47 GMT -6
Hello.
I have a question, which may be a little obvious for you, but as I'm beginner I have a problem with this. Do characters have any saving throw against Drain Level or is it automatic and the only thing needed to drain away energy level is hitting the character? My players want to prove that this skill is some king of a spell/magic and use saving throw against spells. In my opinion as there is nothing about casting any spell or nothing about using any magic in description of monster, then it is automatic and there is no saving throw. Which solution is correct? i would really appreciate if somebody will help me with that.
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Apr 27, 2013 7:03:32 GMT -6
Draining some number of XP seems like it might be likely to slow down the game while people crunch the appropriate numbers.
It seems that the point of a level drain mechanic is to frighten the players (as opposed to the characters, who are probably frightened a good deal of the time given the crazy stuff they witness on the daily) by raising the stakes of a combat encounter to include some of the effort and time they've already invested in the game. If nobody at your table is bothered by that, why water it down because there aren't any clerics at hand? If people at your table are bothered by that, why hang on to wights and wraiths (or at least to their level-draining ability) in the first place? To my mind, it depends on how much patience your players have for an occasional chute in what's otherwise a straightforward set of ladders.
(For what it's worth, I've never played with anyone who had any patience for that, but maybe I've just been unlucky.)
Edited because I realized I was responding to a post from 5 years ago: miodek, my suggestion is that you decide on a ruling that best suits the social situation of your game table. If the players are going to accept a no-saving-throw ruling with equanimity, I'd go for it; if not, the lasting mechanical impact of capitulation will be minimal, so no harm done.
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Post by inkmeister on Apr 27, 2013 7:34:05 GMT -6
Zeraser's got it, I think. The spirit of OD&D (and hell, maybe all games), is that you make your own game/campaign work for you and your players. The 3LBB's and every other edition that has come out are just examples of what other people have done. The 3LBB's themselves say to make the game your own, and to change things to suit your own tastes. So strict adherence to such an unpopular rule is just masochistic, unless you actually like it. If you like the undead as written, keep them with or without clerics. If not, then drop them or change them.
I have played them as written, but I am sympathetic to the idea of making the damage temporary.
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Post by talysman on Apr 27, 2013 10:36:44 GMT -6
As written, the rules don't mention a save vs. undead level drain. But I think some of the other things that drain a level do have a saving throw. So, it's up to you.
I actually don't get the view that losing a level is worse than other things like death or petrification. I do, however, loathe bookkeeping, so I never reduce experience points when a level is drained. A drained character can restore 1 level per adventure, as long as they earn at least 1 xp on that adventure. So, it may take a little while to recover, but level drain the way I run it does have a recovery process.
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Post by aldarron on Apr 27, 2013 19:22:58 GMT -6
Hello. I have a question, which may be a little obvious for you, but as I'm beginner I have a problem with this. Do characters have any saving throw against Drain Level or is it automatic and the only thing needed to drain away energy level is hitting the character? My players want to prove that this skill is some king of a spell/magic and use saving throw against spells. In my opinion as there is nothing about casting any spell or nothing about using any magic in description of monster, then it is automatic and there is no saving throw. Which solution is correct? i would really appreciate if somebody will help me with that. "By the Book" there is no saving throw involved. A hit causes a level drain as a type of damage. But of course, play by whatever rules you find fun.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2013 19:28:12 GMT -6
Hello. I have a question, which may be a little obvious for you, but as I'm beginner I have a problem with this. Do characters have any saving throw against Drain Level or is it automatic and the only thing needed to drain away energy level is hitting the character? My players want to prove that this skill is some king of a spell/magic and use saving throw against spells. In my opinion as there is nothing about casting any spell or nothing about using any magic in description of monster, then it is automatic and there is no saving throw. Which solution is correct? i would really appreciate if somebody will help me with that. As Gary and Dave both played it, there was no save and a hit drained. Hell, Dave didn't even want saving throws for anything.
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Post by Malcadon on Apr 28, 2013 5:50:06 GMT -6
I never liked the level drain rule, as it always felt like a cheap way to stunt the character, and more over, it grinds down the game to have to redo the character sheets in the middle of battle. Combat is used to spice up the adventure, but my players are not big on wargaming, so have have to keep the action going as smoothly as possible.
So in my games, level-drain is called "ability-drain", and it drains one or more of the characters' ability scores instead. This is still a big deal, as characters can still die outright if the scores reach 0, and this type of damage takes longer to heal then with normal HP damage. I like to keep the adventure moving without all that annoying downtime, so hit points can recuperate after a day of rest, but lost ability scores can take a days to heal each point! Although it still requires the players to readjust the stats, but it is a whole lot easier to sink an ability score, than to sink a character level.
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Post by scottenkainen on Apr 28, 2013 7:06:13 GMT -6
I used to run energy draining as-is, but about 15 years ago I relented and allowed a saving throw. Sometimes, I have also reduced energy draining to as low as 500 xp from a wight, 1000 xp from a wraith,* and so on, with the save only halving the xp loss.
*Bear in mind that most of my campaigns have been for levels 1-5, so this is still dangerous.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by talysman on Apr 28, 2013 15:06:14 GMT -6
I never liked the level drain rule, as it always felt like a cheap way to stunt the character, and more over, it grinds down the game to have to redo the character sheets in the middle of battle. Combat is used to spice up the adventure, but my players are not big on wargaming, so have have to keep the action going as smoothly as possible. Why would you redo the entire character sheet in the middle of battle? Just lower the character's level. Or write "levels drained" on scratch paper and keep track of it there. There's no difference between lowering the number labeled "level" and lowering the number labeled "Con".
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Post by Malcadon on Apr 30, 2013 10:51:17 GMT -6
Why would you redo the entire character sheet in the middle of battle? Just lower the character's level. Or write "levels drained" on scratch paper and keep track of it there. When one's level lowers, things like hit points, to-hit, saving throws, spells, special skills/abilities and the like would also lowers with it - the whole point of why this attack is so dreaded! It may not be as taxing as a 3e Level Drain, but even a game effect that adjust most of the stats in a fairly 0e-styled game is still tedious to my players.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2013 11:28:16 GMT -6
Why would you redo the entire character sheet in the middle of battle? Just lower the character's level. Or write "levels drained" on scratch paper and keep track of it there. When one's level lowers, things like hit points, to-hit, saving throws, spells, special skills/abilities and the like would also lowers with it - the whole point of why this attack is so dreaded! It may not be as taxing as a 3e Level Drain, but even a game effect that adjust most of the stats in a fairly 0e-styled game is still tedious to my players. .... it takes about thirty seconds to adjust the spells and hit points. To hit and defense is done by looking it up on a table anyway. And what stats does it modify in OD&D? None. You're making a mountain out of a single grain of sand.
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Apr 30, 2013 13:56:23 GMT -6
When one's level lowers, things like hit points, to-hit, saving throws, spells, special skills/abilities and the like would also lowers with it - the whole point of why this attack is so dreaded! It may not be as taxing as a 3e Level Drain, but even a game effect that adjust most of the stats in a fairly 0e-styled game is still tedious to my players. .... it takes about thirty seconds to adjust the spells and hit points. To hit and defense is done by looking it up on a table anyway. And what stats does it modify in OD&D? None. You're making a mountain out of a single grain of sand. Thirty seconds is enough to interrupt the flow of the game, though, isn't it? (I'd also point out that not everybody uses the chart when determining whether an attack is successful; some prefer to use a simple extrapolated equation.)
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 30, 2013 17:05:52 GMT -6
.... it takes about thirty seconds to adjust the spells and hit points. To hit and defense is done by looking it up on a table anyway. And what stats does it modify in OD&D? None. You're making a mountain out of a single grain of sand. The HD progression is not always straight forward, so the level drained player has to firstly look up the number of HD at his old level and the number of HD at his new level to determine the difference. Presumably then, he should lose the difference. But how that should be done is the question... roll one die? But what if you're going to/from a fractional number of dice? Roll them all? And if you were already damaged... do you losses carry over one for one, or as a proportion of your total hit points? Do you decide all this, or does the referee? Saving throws may or may not need adjusting, depending on which class you're playing and what level you're being drained to. A drained cleric or magic-user has to compare how many spells he was allowed with how many he is now allowed. He may find himself with more memorised spells than he is now allowed, in which case he has to choose which spells he suddenly "forgets". Or does the referee choose? Or should he roll for it? If you're playing a GH-style thief you'll have to go and recalculate all those fiddly percentages for your new level, with racial adjustments and dexterity adjustments. What are there... eight individual skills to figure? If you're playing a non-standard class (assassin, druid, bard, ranger, paladin, etc.) you may also have to deal with some/all of the above. You might do all that in under 30 seconds if you're very familiar with the books and you have DM-style fiat to make your own decisions. But a regular player will take longer, and will probably need the referee to make some calls too.
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Post by talysman on Apr 30, 2013 17:26:30 GMT -6
When one's level lowers, things like hit points, to-hit, saving throws, spells, special skills/abilities and the like would also lowers with it - the whole point of why this attack is so dreaded! It may not be as taxing as a 3e Level Drain, but even a game effect that adjust most of the stats in a fairly 0e-styled game is still tedious to my players. .... it takes about thirty seconds to adjust the spells and hit points. To hit and defense is done by looking it up on a table anyway. And what stats does it modify in OD&D? None. You're making a mountain out of a single grain of sand. It's even less of a grain of sand, if you just let them keep whatever hit points and spells they have currently until they return to town to heal or otherwise restore spells. EXAMPLE: 5th level M-U has a total of 7 spells memorized and has 3 HD, 11 hit points. He gets drained two levels. If you feel like docking him his 3rd level spell, go ahead, but you can always just let him keep it until the current session is finished. At the beginning of the next session, when he tries to pick spells to prepare, look up how many of each spell level he's allowed, and his new hit dice (2 HD). Reroll hit points, if that's what you do, or just lower hit points to the maximum allowed for 2 HD (12 points,) if current hp is higher than allowed. If you aren't the sort of person who uses the combat tables, just subtract 1 for every level lost. No need to change anything on the sheet, other than recording how many levels you lost.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 1, 2013 0:22:12 GMT -6
It's even less of a grain of sand, if you just let them keep whatever hit points and spells they have currently until they return to town to heal or otherwise restore spells. If I'm reading it correctly Talysman, it seems that you're suggesting that a level drain could have no effect until next time the PC rests up in town? Is that what you meant, or did you intend something more like a simplification of the SRD's method of handling "energy drain"? An alternate method that I've thought about, but never tried, is representing each level drained as the loss of 1-6 points of strength. It's no fuss and super simple. And Shadows already function this way -- although these are specifically stated as not being undead in early iterations of the rules.
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Post by talysman on May 1, 2013 17:11:57 GMT -6
It's even less of a grain of sand, if you just let them keep whatever hit points and spells they have currently until they return to town to heal or otherwise restore spells. If I'm reading it correctly Talysman, it seems that you're suggesting that a level drain could have no effect until next time the PC rests up in town? Is that what you meant, or did you intend something more like a simplification of the SRD's method of handling "energy drain"? Well, they would still lose levels immediately, which would affect saves and attacks. If you look up stuff on the attack matrix or save matrix, just use their current level; if you use Target 20, use their current level. Optionally, subtract from the roll based on levels lost. Any of those can be done during combat. But to avoid making major changes in the middle of combat, just assume that any hit points or spells they currently have that are higher than those allowed by their new level are temporary hit points and spells. Once lost, you can't get them back. You might want to take away access to high-level spells on the fly, if you have the max spell level memorized (half M-U level round up = max spell level.)
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Supersonic Underwear!
Posts: 259
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Post by machpants on May 1, 2013 17:42:00 GMT -6
Because I like the description often included in literature (D&D literature, I guess) of such level draining attacks draining life force I am going to use aging in my game. It is a percentage of your natural life span so elves don;t get it easy! I can describe the effect to my players and it shouldn't be too hard to track. It is only going to become relevant if they get hit alot. As to being able to reverse the effect, Limited Wish will do it as will Raise Dead if you die from it (those are as powerful as PC spells get in my game). I have never like losing levels and I think S&W is deadly enough for my boys without it!
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Post by cooper on May 1, 2013 20:28:14 GMT -6
There's no need to reroll hit points. Each hit drains a HD, to put another way, each hit does 1d6 permanent damage until the XP is gained back.
Example: hero with 14 HP and a wight hits him doing 2 damage. He now is 3rd level and has 12 HP.
Since players love good hit point totals as much as class levels, you don't even have to drain a level, you can just say undead attacks are permanent damage that cannot be healed other than by a restoration or wish....in some ways it's actually kinder to drop the levels as well, as it gives them a chance to regain the HP. I pitty the 9th level fighter with 8 hit points that needs 250,000xp in order to get a new 1d6 added to his total!
Now there is a man ruined and weakened by his experience with the undead (perhaps the marks on his throat from the unholy beasts black hands are still plainly visible even years after the event). On the other hand, a 4th level fighter who rolled very high hit points (say 22 hit points) might get off with only an ever present chill in his heart when he slew the wight lo' those many years ago that hit him once for 1 point of damage (permanently lowering his total to 21).
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 1, 2013 21:30:57 GMT -6
I see what you're saying Cooper, and it's a neat treatment for fighters. But it means magic-users get off kinda lightly, since hp aren't as critical to them. Unless you also mean to reduce their spell casting ability appropriately. Also... how is this: I pitty the 9th level fighter with 8 hit points that needs 250,000xp in order to get a new 1d6 added to his total! possible? If a 9th level fighter was hit, say, 6 times by undead surely he would be reduced to an 8th, 7th, 6th, 5th, 4th, and finally a 3rd level fighter with 8 hit points? Wouldn't he then require the regular 4,000 XP to regain 4th level and regain 1-6 hit points?
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on May 2, 2013 17:28:21 GMT -6
Because I like the description often included in literature (D&D literature, I guess) of such level draining attacks draining life force I am going to use aging in my game. It is a percentage of your natural life span so elves don;t get it easy! I can describe the effect to my players and it shouldn't be too hard to track. It is only going to become relevant if they get hit a lot. As to being able to reverse the effect, Limited Wish will do it as will Raise Dead if you die from it (those are as powerful as PC spells get in my game). I have never like losing levels and I think S&W is deadly enough for my boys without it! I really like this idea - unnaturally accelerated aging. Ultimately, I don't think it makes the game any less deadly, and it's certainly a more flavorful option than the diminishing of a mechanical abstraction.
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Post by talysman on May 2, 2013 18:08:55 GMT -6
Because I like the description often included in literature (D&D literature, I guess) of such level draining attacks draining life force I am going to use aging in my game. It is a percentage of your natural life span so elves don;t get it easy! I can describe the effect to my players and it shouldn't be too hard to track. It is only going to become relevant if they get hit a lot. As to being able to reverse the effect, Limited Wish will do it as will Raise Dead if you die from it (those are as powerful as PC spells get in my game). I have never like losing levels and I think S&W is deadly enough for my boys without it! I really like this idea - unnaturally accelerated aging. Ultimately, I don't think it makes the game any less deadly, and it's certainly a more flavorful option than the diminishing of a mechanical abstraction. There's precedent: the Ghost in AD&D. I toyed with the idea myself. The downside is you need aging rules. Here you go. Summary, so you don't have to go to my blog: - No age states, other than informally (less than 18 = young, more than 65 = old.)
- No penalties for age, it's just cosmetic until character dies of old age.
- After age 65, roll 1d6 anytime character gets sick. On 5+, character dies. Add +1 to roll for every 15 years.
Optionally, also use step 3 when recovering from injury; on 5+, the character never fully recovers and is left with a crippled arm or leg or addled brain. Dwarves and elves have an effective age, comparable to human ages. Divide magical aging by three for dwarves, 10 for elves. Others use the same rules as humans.
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Supersonic Underwear!
Posts: 259
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Post by machpants on May 2, 2013 23:39:11 GMT -6
Well you can have aging rules but I won't bother, once the PC hits a certain age they'll retire. Chance of it happening is low but it is there. If the players want to keep going then I'll figure the rules then, maybe nothing more than the penalties given in 3.x
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Post by retrorob on Aug 9, 2020 3:05:37 GMT -6
I've never liked experience loss, partially because I hate bookkeeping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the very beginning Life energy levels were probably something different from levels/HD?
Last night I run a game session and one of the warriors was hit by a Wraith. "What's now?" the player asked. Well, Vol. II doesn't tell us much about the drain, it's only vol. III that states "fresh experience" is needed to regain "energy levels".
Fighter (F-W 3, HD 3, HP 15) had 6449 XP. During the session she gained another 1276 XP. I hate the idea to reduce her to 3000 XP as per AD&D DMG. So that's what I came up with:
Option #1
- F-W doesn't lose any XP and gains "fresh experience" (6449+1276=7725); - by the book, she drops to 2nd level, she has HD 2 now; - her HP are reduced to 12.
She lacks 275 XP to advance. If she gets the points, probably I let her have HD 4 (and re-roll hit points). Maybe I'll require Cure Disease be cast on her?
Option #2
- F-W loses XP, she has 3999; - she is reduced to 2nd level and 12 HP; - as she gained 1276 "fresh experience" for this adventure, total is 5275; - she regain her lost level and can re-roll HP.
What do you think?
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