Drain levels

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 7, 2021 8:41:30 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

The party is on the 6th level of the dungeon. The referee rolls a wandering monster using the 5th-level chart in GREYHAWK (p. 55), getting a "5": spectres. Let us suppose 1-4 spectres, with the roll indicating 3 spectres. Now roll for surprise... The party is surprised. The spectres attack, draining TWO levels with each hit. Now initiative. The spectres win. More double level hits. (In all this time, the party has done nothing wrong. All they've done is walk down a corridor.)

FWIW, M&TA has 1-2 spectres occurring on DL6.

Also, there's usually a roll to determine encounter distance which (per U&WA) is 20-80ft or 10-30ft if surprised. Monsters will usually approach from either the front or rear of the player column--but even if spectres came floating right out of the walls into the middle of the party (perhaps indicated by 10ft encounter distance) they might only reach a couple of players within the surprise segment. Two spectres could attack at most two (heroic) players with surprise.

That said, players who've reached the 6th dungeon level must have some kind of survival instinct. Yes, being surprised is bad news. Which is why players should do their utmost to avoid being surprised, and--wherever possible--to instead surprise the monsters. They should send scouts (with the least odds of being surprised) ahead; perhaps an elf, thief, charmed monster, or wizard eye sending. They should listen or use ESP ("things such as ESP'ing ... will negate surprise") or detect evil spells. With undead around, they might have prepared a protection from evil spell, or a protection from undead scroll, or at least carry a Cross and wear a necklace of garlic bulbs...

None of this will save players from unlikely dice, of course, so above all players should always roll high (except when they need to roll low)

[tkdco2]

While I had suggested any CON drain be restored at a rate of one point per day, perhaps changing it to one per week may be better in terms of keeping the threat level more consistent.

[geoffrey]

Apr 6, 2021 12:07:09 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Mar 31, 2021 21:21:37 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch.

It occurs to me that Melan uses 4d6-drop-lowest for ability score generation (whereas I use 3d6). To balance things out, I would need to lower the constitution drain a bit. Perhaps 1-4 points for wights/wraiths, and 1-7 (2d4-1) for spectres/vampires. Or to make things a bit less random (considering that level drain typically isn't random), perhaps:

Monsters that drain 1 level instead drain 2 points of constitution.
Monsters that drain 2 levels instead drain 4 points of constitution.

I crunched the numbers, and to make PCs with abilities generated with 3d6 (rather than Melan's 4d6, drop lowest) equally vulnerable to constitution loss, it would be like this:

Monsters that drain 1 level instead drain 3 points of constitution. (Exactly the same end result as Melan: an average of 3.5 touches to kill a character.)
Monsters that drain 2 levels instead drain 4 points of constitution. (2.625 touches to kill a character vs. 2.45 touches to kill a character in Melan's game.)

In a nutshell:

A wight or a wraith would kill a typical character after 3 or 4 touches.
A spectre or a vampire would kill a typical character after 2 or 3 touches.

[Starbeard]

I don't always use level drain, but I do keep it in reserve. I like to give clerics the ability to detect spaces where Very Nasty Effects occur. I don't gussy it up, I just play straight. "Here's the thing: your cleric tells you that you CAN get level drained down there. Do you still want to enter?"

I don't have a strict policy about when, where or how much, I just use it when it seems like it might add a hard challenge to something that might otherwise be by the numbers. They might drain ability scores, they might level drain only temporarily (restoring a level per day, week or month of rest), they might drain permanently. It might even have multiple effects, say level drain and a Curse that keeps you from gaining XP, or makes you always use your worst saving throw category. But I don't want to play Gotcha with the players so I always warn them about what sort of bad mojo they will be facing, so that they have the chance to prepare or change course.

[tkdco2]

Warning the players about the threat of level drain is a good idea. Most of the folks I've played with are familiar with D&D, so they already know about these types of undead, but we take it for granted that it's general knowledge. Reminding the players will help them make their decision, and they can't blame you if they risk it and lose.

[bobjester0e]

I'd go btb level drain, but to simplify bookkeeping during combat & to keep the session flowing, only impose -1 to hits, damage and saves per level drained until end of session, when the player can make the necessary level changes (like hit points, # spells/day, etc.) permanent.

I like the idea of a level drain hit do 1d6x1000 xp, and if I incorporated this into the above, the player would have to track the XP loss as it occurred but still have -1 to hits, damage & saves per level lost until the end of the session.

I wouldn't force players to lose hit points or spells due to level loss during combat. Save those losses for record keeping at the end of the encounter or session.

Of course, this danger is mitigated by having a cleric successfully turn undead. However, if the party doesn't have a cleric, or the cleric's turn fails, the party better put on those running shoes...

[Starbeard]

I agree about hit points and spells. Keep total hit points unchanged during the fight, and figure that stuff out when there's downtime, maybe even during the next rest. Let them continue adventuring throughout the rest of the day with their spells and hit points intact, and they wake up the next day with the delayed effects of the drain.

[tkdco2]

So, is level drain absent in 5e? I was just watching a video where a 5e player was shocked to learn about level drain in older editions. When did this start?

[cometaryorbit]

Apr 17, 2021 0:34:31 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

So, is level drain absent in 5e? I was just watching a video where a 5e player was shocked to learn about level drain in older editions. When did this start?

Yes, equivalent effects in 5e (such as a wight or specter's attack) temporarily reduce maximum hit points.

I think it started in 4e, though I never did very much with it. 3e had sort of a halfway situation with "negative levels" which could later become real level loss.

[Desparil]

Apr 17, 2021 1:27:58 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

Apr 17, 2021 0:34:31 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

So, is level drain absent in 5e? I was just watching a video where a 5e player was shocked to learn about level drain in older editions. When did this start?

Yes, equivalent effects in 5e (such as a wight or specter's attack) temporarily reduce maximum hit points.

I think it started in 4e, though I never did very much with it. 3e had sort of a halfway situation with "negative levels" which could later become real level loss.

In 4E they typically would drain healing surges. If you're not familiar with the rules, basically each day you had a certain number of healing surges, a wizard might have 6 or 7 whereas a fighter or paladin might have 10 or more. The majority of healing spells and abilities required the recipient to spend one or more healing surges in order to operate; so-called "surgeless healing" was either very small numbers of hit points or limited to once a day. So effectively, being drained by undead crippled your ability to regain hit points for the rest of the day, but had no lingering effects beyond that. If you were drained again after you had already run out of healing surges, you suffered massive damage instead; one-fourth of your maximum hit points for every surge that would have been drained, in addition to whatever damage the attack did.

[Starbeard]

It was an interesting effect but definitely limited to the particulars of 4th edition. It's just given me the idea of a monster that does no damage but cancels prepared spells if you have any, like a rust monster but for magic. Maybe 1-6 random spells are forgotten with each hit, very very nasty.

[yesmar]

I have a subterranean mold in my game that ‘eats’ spell levels from Magic-Users who pass by too close. I love it.

[badger2305]

This puts me in mind of the "Typo" - a monster that lurks unseen, but when in proximity to magic-users, causes their spells to go awry in interesting ways:

• "Sleep" might be changed into "Sweep" - causing monsters to vigorously attempt to clean the floor with their weapons
• "Cone of Cold" might result in a vast quantity of fish to appear, aimed at the enemy - a "Cone of Cod"
• "Fire Ball" produces a large, jangling sphere of metal - a "Wire Ball"
• "Find Traps" reveals the existence of luxurious warm capes nearby - "Find Wraps"

Or the Glitch, from White Dwarf #4: a tiny ball of fur with some unusual properties: "What it doesn't realise is that it has unique magical properties; while it is within 30' of a melee. All those taking part (including monsters) must save against magic each melee round or their blows will miss whatever the die roll, spells will fail to function, magic devices and weapons become useless etc. This goes on until either the melee moves away or the Glitch gets fed up and wanders off."

[cometaryorbit]

Apr 17, 2021 2:01:15 GMT -6 Desparil said:

 So effectively, being drained by undead crippled your ability to regain hit points for the rest of the day, but had no lingering effects beyond that.

OK, that's pretty much the same as the 5E effect that reduces your maximum hit points until a "long rest" (ie - for the rest of the day).

Although, IME what really makes the 5E effect scary at low levels - especially from specters* - is the instant death (rather than the usual unconsciousness/death saves at 0 hp) if maximum hit points go to 0.

*For some odd reason, incomprehensible to me, 5E specters (challenge rating 1) are lower-level monsters than wights (3), rather than stronger versions of wraiths (challenge rating 5 in 5E).

[cometaryorbit]

Apr 17, 2021 13:15:08 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

This puts me in mind of the "Typo" - a monster that lurks unseen, but when in proximity to magic-users, causes their spells to go awry in interesting ways:

• "Sleep" might be changed into "Sweep" - causing monsters to vigorously attempt to clean the floor with their weapons

That's pretty hilarious. Maybe one of those hanging around a Wizard crafting items is what led to the magic sword with the power "Detect Meal and What Kind"

I'm not having luck quoting multiple posts, but, re: spell-eating monsters: Oh, that's cool. Kind of reminiscent of some AD&D monsters that (IIRC) ate psionic points, but without the complexities of the psionics system.

[dicebro]

Mar 24, 2008 7:49:00 GMT -6 makofan said:

I was thinking of those dreaded monsters like wights and wraiths that drain levels. In my world without clerics, how would you handle these terrors? Well how about, when they hit, instead of draining a level, they drain 1000-6000 experience points (1d6x1000)? They'd still be nasty, but at least you could take your chances. Tougher undead could roll 2d6 for experience drain.

I’d keep it as it is. Level zero just means the character has to retire as a while-haired sickly old fart like Jonathan Harper in Dracula, if he can get away.  House rule: level drain never kills, it just weakens you for the kill. 

I’m considering the idea of players not knowing the character’s Xp.  It detracts from the point of the game.  

[tetramorph]

Like some have said, it is life energy drain, not level drain per se.

I do NOT do experience point drain.

I interpret life energy drain to mean that the character functions at level(s) lower than earned XP.

So this would reduce HD, HP, saves, attacks, spells, etc.

The character regain level(s) each time more experience points are earned, however few. So if a character has been drained two levels, it will take two occasions of earning XP to get back up, in capacity, to where the character was before the incident.

I learned this approach from talysman.

[Mordorandor]

Has anyone play tested having XP remain unchanged and just consider the character operating at x levels lower? With dispel evil or some such spell required to get rid of the “negative levels.”

[Starbeard]

Sept 22, 2021 16:29:12 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Has anyone play tested having XP remain unchanged and just consider the character operating at x levels lower? With dispel evil or some such spell requires to get rid of the “negative levels.”

In my experience this is pretty standard, probably even the most common ruling on the subject (and by that I mean it's the only one I've encountered across multiple tables more than say, once).

I think it works perfectly well. Easy peasy bookkeeping and it gives those remove curse spells something to be good at. Each casting could either restore one level, or else all levels are restored but only by a caster level of +1 above the spell minimum per experience level lost: so a -1 level drain can be restored with a remove curse spell, but if you've been drained 2 levels then you need it cast by a lama; take a 3-level hit and you need a Patriarch, etc.

[dicebro]

Sept 21, 2021 16:39:32 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Like some have said, it is life energy drain, not level drain per se.

I do NOT do experience point drain.

I interpret life energy drain to mean that the character functions at level(s) lower than earned XP.

So this would reduce HD, HP, saves, attacks, spells, etc.

The character regain level(s) each time more experience points are earned, however few. So if a character has been drained two levels, it will take two occasions of earning XP to get back up, in capacity, to where the character was before the incident.

I learned this approach from talysman .

Giant Leeches drain life energy levels too, with no mention of Xp. Interesting.

[Mordorandor]

Sept 28, 2021 10:44:34 GMT -6 dicebro said:

That's a good point. I can't find direct mention of XP loss in any of the areas that mention "life energy drain."

I suppose we gamer-types tend to make an implicit presumption that XP = Fighting Capability Level and decreased XP accordingly.

Keeping XP the same and just having the character operate at a level or two lower seems a lot easier.

[Starbeard]

The complication comes from the assumption that drained levels must be regained through XP acquisition. In AD&D I believe this is exactly the case, that dropping a level means having to reacquire the XP to reach that level. Without deducting XP that becomes a maths headache, hence all of the shenanigans people perform to determine XP loss—that in the end remain just as much a headache.

Actually, in that case… unless you are using OD&D's upkeep rule of 1% XP in GP, presumably monthly, up until you establish a stronghold, then is there even any reason to track total XP at all? It seems much easier just to track how much XP is needed for the next level: for example, Lvl. 8 Fighter (XP 30,000 / 120,000). If you got drained, then you either reset to 0 XP (so the beginning of the level), or prorate your progress (in this example 25% completed).

[mgtremaine]

Apr 8, 2021 14:08:34 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

I think Magical Research of new spells offers an underappreciated RAW way for clever players to mitigate the effects of level-draining undead. A 5th level Magic-User should be able to research a 3rd level Protection from Undead, 10' Radius that is equivalent to Protection from Evil, 10' Radius - which lasts for 12 turns per casting. Not that a precedent for such a magical effect in the game is needed for a new spell, but in this case there is one in the form of the Protection from Undead scroll.

Seems like in OD&D at least that Pro Evil should just prevent it. That best part of OD&D is the simple flexibility because things are not overly defined.

This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters. It also serves as an “armor” from various evil attacks,

Sounds close enough to me, then at least there is something in the party's bag of tricks, both for Magic-User and Cleric, that will help. Earlier is was also suggested that Dispel Evil allow the removal of a Negative Levels. This might be ok also, obviously Limited Wish and Wish can certainly do it.

-Mike

[Mordorandor]

Sept 30, 2021 6:41:45 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

Apr 8, 2021 14:08:34 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

I think Magical Research of new spells offers an underappreciated RAW way for clever players to mitigate the effects of level-draining undead. A 5th level Magic-User should be able to research a 3rd level Protection from Undead, 10' Radius that is equivalent to Protection from Evil, 10' Radius - which lasts for 12 turns per casting. Not that a precedent for such a magical effect in the game is needed for a new spell, but in this case there is one in the form of the Protection from Undead scroll.

Seems like in OD&D at least that Pro Evil should just prevent it. That best part of OD&D is the simple flexibility because things are not overly defined.

This spell hedges the conjurer round with a magic circle to keep out attacks from enchanted monsters. It also serves as an “armor” from various evil attacks,

Sounds close enough to me, then at least there is something in the party's bag of tricks, both for Magic-User and Cleric, that will help. Earlier is was also suggested that Dispel Evil allow the removal of a Negative Levels. This might be ok also, obviously Limited Wish and Wish can certainly do it.

-Mike

I'd forgotten Zenopus' response. Am I over-relying on Moldvay/Cook when I say my reading of Protection from Evil (and it's 10-foot radius sibling) already hedges out Undead, under the interpretation they're "enchanted" monsters?
I haven't seen that interpretation explicitly called out in Chainmail or the LBBs.

[retrorob]

Sept 29, 2021 8:33:07 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Sept 28, 2021 10:44:34 GMT -6 dicebro said:

That's a good point. I can't find direct mention of XP loss in any of the areas that mention "life energy drain."

I suppose we gamer-types tend to make an implicit presumption that XP = Fighting Capability Level and decreased XP accordingly.

Keeping XP the same and just having the character operate at a level or two lower seems a lot easier.

I guess the only mention comes from Vol. III: "As noted previously, energy levels can only be regained by fresh experience".

[Mordorandor]

Oct 10, 2021 10:28:54 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Sept 29, 2021 8:33:07 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

That's a good point. I can't find direct mention of XP loss in any of the areas that mention "life energy drain."

I suppose we gamer-types tend to make an implicit presumption that XP = Fighting Capability Level and decreased XP accordingly.

Keeping XP the same and just having the character operate at a level or two lower seems a lot easier.

I guess the only mention comes from Vol. III: "As noted previously, energy levels can only be regained by fresh experience".

Another good point. XP loss comes to my mind immediately, though some of the other approaches -- any future adventure wherein XP is earned -- seem to live into the spirit of that statement too.

I suppose it would confound many to have ambiguous guidelines. I rather like it. 

[dicebro]

Oct 11, 2021 17:20:03 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Oct 10, 2021 10:28:54 GMT -6 retrorob said:

I guess the only mention comes from Vol. III: "As noted previously, energy levels can only be regained by fresh experience".

Another good point. XP loss comes to my mind immediately, though some of the other approaches -- any future adventure wherein XP is earned -- seem to live into the spirit of that statement too.

I suppose it would confound many to have ambiguous guidelines. I rather like it. 

That’s what we get when two guys with different ideas put together a fantasy adventure game: Conflicting rules! I’m fine with it.  Best edition ever. My personal view is not to reduce xp, but to roll play it out…you feel cold, you got the sweats and the shakes, you can’t eat very much, it hurts to pick up your weapon, you can’t remember who your parents are, your hair’s falling out…the soothsayer says you will remain at x percent combat effectiveness until you get this undead curse thing resolved! Might want to talk to that vampire hunter in the next town.

mechanically speaking: a 9th level fighter who is drained by a vampire can operate only as a 7th level fighter unless he is cured by a patriarch, or maybe a lama.