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Post by geoffrey on Apr 2, 2021 11:28:01 GMT -6
I've been playing A/D&D since I was 10 years old in 1980, and I've simply never liked level drain (either as a DM or as a player). As a DM, I do not use the handful of monsters that drain levels. In OD&D, isn't that limited to spectres, vampires, wights, and wraiths? If for some reason I simply had to use those monsters, I would replace their level draining ability with Melan's constitution drain.  Why do you not like it? Any particular reason? I’m interested in this topic. It's the only part of the game that feels like going backwards. I don't mind going forwards into a bad thing, such as: "Now your character is petrified!" "Now your character is dead!" "Now your character has lost his favorite magic items!" "Now your character is cursed." Etc. In all those cases, it's something new. I find it interesting and fun to deal with that sort of thing. But level drain? It feels like: "Now you are back to 5th level!" It feels like an encore, or a retread, or stopping on chapter 7 and going back and re-reading chapters 5 and 6 before reading chapter 7, or having a movie pause in the middle and rewound to a point 20 minutes earlier. "Didn't I just read/watch this? Can't I just go on to the next part? Even if the next part isn't particularly good, I would prefer to move forward rather than re-read/re-watch what I just read/watched." All of the above might not be logical, but that's how it has always struck me at the gut level. Level drain is the only thing that's backwards. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Apr 2, 2021 15:08:00 GMT -6
My dilemma with level drain is whether to revert back to the hit points or just randomly roll how many hit points are lost and later regained. The former involves keeping track of hit points per level, which I doubt anyone does. The latter risks ending up with fewer hit points when the character originally had. While you can explain that as a harrowing experience that stayed with the character, the players I've gamed with will not enjoy it at all.
Maybe I'm overthinking that bit, but in my experience, players HATE losing levels, especially since it takes a lot longer to regain them in old-school D&D. It feels like all your hard work was for nothing, and you've got to start all over again. It sucks in real life, and it sucks in gaming.
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 2, 2021 15:35:40 GMT -6
...you've got to start all over again... Right. It's going backwards. |
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Post by blackwyvern on Apr 3, 2021 12:29:47 GMT -6
If a DM allows Dispel Evil to repair the effects that would go a long way towards making it palatable. A town of any size should have a Bishop. Although I do like the idea of each "level" drained having the soul effect of permanently removing 1d6 hit points, combined with Dispel Evil being able to fix the lost hit points. That is a combination that retains the scary effect and still PC to continue. Constitution drain seems like it would take a lot for any effects to really be noticeable.
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Post by barna10 on Apr 3, 2021 14:13:13 GMT -6
Level drain makes no sense to me. It's like the monster drained knowledge away from you. It's like "Well, there goes college!" Levels do not equate to life force, at least not IMO
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Post by tkdco2 on Apr 3, 2021 14:18:28 GMT -6
Of course, the effect of the CON drain depends on the edition you're playing. OD&D doesn't give as many bonuses or penalties as B/X or AD&D, so a character may not feel the effects immediately unless his CON was 15+ or 7. But a B/X character with a CON score of 13 will feel the effects even just by losing a single point. CON = 12, lose those extra hit points you got because of a high score!
Another thing you can do is roll for which ability to be drained. Suddenly, your character suddenly loses understanding of a language he once knew, or his experience bonus is gone, or his henchmen aren't as loyal as they used to be.
That happened in a game where the DM implemented that rule. One hapless character kept losing CHA points. He didn't have any henchmen, but he sure was ugly! IIRC unlike my method, his ability drains were permanent.
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on Apr 3, 2021 14:32:23 GMT -6
Of course, the effect of the CON drain depends on the edition you're playing. OD&D doesn't give as many bonuses or penalties as B/X or AD&D, so a character may not feel the effects immediately unless his CON was 15+ or 7. The chance of withstanding adversity decreases with nearly every point lost. I don’t know about your game, but this is a characteristic that frequently factors into mine. |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 3, 2021 15:15:50 GMT -6
Constitution drain seems like it would take a lot for any effects to really be noticeable. Using Melan's constitution drain rules, on average: You'll be dead after being touched three times by a wight or a wraith. You'll be dead after being touched twice by a spectre or a vampire.  |
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Post by dicebro on Apr 3, 2021 19:28:18 GMT -6
Level drain = Anathema
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on Apr 3, 2021 19:37:56 GMT -6
Level drain has its place. What does Kask say? Pucker factor. Yeah, that’s it. My players hate level drain, petrification, unnatural aging, and demi-human level limits — as they should! Yet, my game has them all — as it should. Sometimes you just gotta know when to turn tail and run away.
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 3, 2021 20:34:32 GMT -6
Level Drain is part of D&D in Hard Mode.
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Post by dicebro on Apr 3, 2021 21:35:23 GMT -6
It’s important for the players to know what can happen before they encounter a level draining monster. They should at least be able to choose to avoid the risk. That’s my opinion.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 4, 2021 0:48:11 GMT -6
There are few monster-driven effects players will fear more.
If they just wade into melee expecting an easy win... they might learn something. On the other hand, I've seen players get sore about level loss, despite poor tactics. Some feel it's unfair and complain, which can detract from play. So you need to balance it against player maturity as well.
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Post by Porphyre on Apr 4, 2021 15:23:24 GMT -6
My dilemma with level drain is whether to revert back to the hit points or just randomly roll how many hit points are lost and later regained. The former involves keeping track of hit points per level, which I doubt anyone does. The latter risks ending up with fewer hit points when the character originally had. I use OD&D Hit Dice and re-roll hit-points at every level, keep the best score. If character loses a level I re-roll hit points, keep the worse score. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2021 16:05:39 GMT -6
Using Melan's constitution drain rules, on average: You'll be dead after being touched three times by a wight or a wraith. You'll be dead after being touched twice by a spectre or a vampire. I was thinking on using the constitution drain like this: once touched, your max hp = constitution, and it will being reduced each time. Con 0 = death. (Characters don't have much HP in our current game, we're testing 1d6+HD for HP instead of 1d6 per HD, so this reduction would not be so drastic in our game, but in a normal game it might work as something like Con*2) But now that you're talking about average turns to die, I'm thinking about not messing with ability scores (and HP) reduction at all, but adopt literally a "x touches to die" approach. On the first touch roll all Saves with a -1 until dispelled, on the second touch roll all Saves with -2 until dispelled, on the third touch you're dead and probably will rise as a wraith/spectre/etc as well. This reductions on Saves might help to give a "curse of Morgul blade" effect so characters will not forget this encounter so soon. By "until dispelled" I'm thinking that killing the creature is enough, but maybe some old Sorcerers or Clerics might know a Dispel ritual, or might have some rare herb that can help the players, then we have a plot hook. |
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Post by doublejig2 on Apr 4, 2021 16:47:31 GMT -6
Yep; real buggers.  |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 6, 2021 12:07:09 GMT -6
I've been considering draining constitution instead of levels. Perhaps wights and wraiths drain 1 point per touch, while spectres and vampires drain 2 points. Anyone whose CON drops to zero dies and comes back as an undead creature. The lost CON would return at a rate of 1 point per day. That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch. It occurs to me that Melan uses 4d6-drop-lowest for ability score generation (whereas I use 3d6). To balance things out, I would need to lower the constitution drain a bit. Perhaps 1-4 points for wights/wraiths, and 1-7 (2d4-1) for spectres/vampires. Or to make things a bit less random (considering that level drain typically isn't random), perhaps: Monsters that drain 1 level instead drain 2 points of constitution. Monsters that drain 2 levels instead drain 4 points of constitution. |
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 6, 2021 14:32:44 GMT -6
There are few monster-driven effects players will fear more. If they just wade into melee expecting an easy win... they might learn something. On the other hand, I've seen players get sore about level loss, despite poor tactics. Some feel it's unfair and complain, which can detract from play. So you need to balance it against player maturity as well. That's part of the difference between modern and old school play styles, isn't it? Not the only explanation for hard feelings, but if players don't understand what "risk" actually means in an old school context, it can be very jarring to them. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Apr 6, 2021 17:51:24 GMT -6
That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch. It occurs to me that Melan uses 4d6-drop-lowest for ability score generation (whereas I use 3d6). To balance things out, I would need to lower the constitution drain a bit. Perhaps 1-4 points for wights/wraiths, and 1-7 (2d4-1) for spectres/vampires. Or to make things a bit less random (considering that level drain typically isn't random), perhaps: Monsters that drain 1 level instead drain 2 points of constitution. Monsters that drain 2 levels instead drain 4 points of constitution. I use 4d6, drop lowest as well, but I may do the CON drain your way. I am still considering random ability drain instead. |
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premmy
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by premmy on Apr 6, 2021 18:34:23 GMT -6
Sometimes you just gotta know when to turn tail and run away. I think that principle often holds water, but not always.Over the past year I've played a lot of OD&D-ish and by-the-book AD&D 1st ed. games with Melan and the crew (online due to the pandemic). My experience is that very often "the players should be smart enough to recognise when to run away" is just a dismissive platitude by the DM rather than the reality of the game. (Not saying Melan is dismissive like that, I'm commenting on the general notion here.) In these old school systems, you often don't get to run away. You open an undistinguished door (or run into a random encounter), OOPS it's a level-draining / paralysing / disproportionately hard-hitting thing. You roll for initiative, OOPS, the thing wins initiative. It rolls attack, OOPS, the damage is done. And then comes the first time during the encounter when players actually get to make any decisions (such as running away). You run away, fine, but you've already lost your level literally before you could do anything. And even then, if you decide to run away, OOPS, the monster chases after you and gets a chance to attack some more while you can't strike back since you're running, it really would have been better to just stay and fight. And if it wasn't a wraith but a ghoul, running away means you leave the paralysed party member behind and he's dead. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining that D&D has danger, even great danger in; nor that bad things happen to PCs. What peeves me off is when grognardier-than-thou DMs smirkingly declare that the level drain (or whatever) happened because the players failed to be smart enough to run away - when in fact it happened because the rules never gave the players a chance to act on their smarts. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2021 19:45:25 GMT -6
I think that principle often holds water, but not always.I agree. But I would argue that's a problem of maybe a poorly designed encounter. I'm not against rolling random encounters, but I don't think it's the best solution specially if you're using a pre-made monster table and not a customized one. I guess this is the type of danger to be telegraphed, I often telegraph way less dangerous situations, because why not, you know? Why do the PC's just encounter a Bear instead of some Bear tracks and trails? Not every encounter have to be a combat and you can have very good encounters telegraphing dangers. I've saw more than once my players going insane because of a scream or noise, some animal tracks, or something that would not even represent an actual encounter. Another thing I don't think makes sense every time is this situation of chasing. My creatures will not chase most of time, because why should them? I think that all those doom creatures that can Drain, Paralyze, etc, are very good encounters, if you design the encounter to be special and not just throw some of them out there randomly. I would not put some Wraiths to chase the pcs unless I'm doing that kinda of artificially - the Wraiths will probably never reach them no matter what - specially if some of the character already have been drained. They have already suffered a fright and learned their lesson, there is no need to kill them in the process. |
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 6, 2021 21:37:27 GMT -6
Sometimes you just gotta know when to turn tail and run away. I think that principle often holds water, but not always.Over the past year I've played a lot of OD&D-ish and by-the-book AD&D 1st ed. games with Melan and the crew (online due to the pandemic). My experience is that very often "the players should be smart enough to recognise when to run away" is just a dismissive platitude by the DM rather than the reality of the game. (Not saying Melan is dismissive like that, I'm commenting on the general notion here.) In these old school systems, you often don't get to run away. You open an undistinguished door (or run into a random encounter), OOPS it's a level-draining / paralysing / disproportionately hard-hitting thing. You roll for initiative, OOPS, the thing wins initiative. It rolls attack, OOPS, the damage is done. And then comes the first time during the encounter when players actually get to make any decisions (such as running away). You run away, fine, but you've already lost your level literally before you could do anything. And even then, if you decide to run away, OOPS, the monster chases after you and gets a chance to attack some more while you can't strike back since you're running, it really would have been better to just stay and fight. And if it wasn't a wraith but a ghoul, running away means you leave the paralysed party member behind and he's dead. Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining that D&D has danger, even great danger in; nor that bad things happen to PCs. What peeves me off is when grognardier-than-thou DMs smirkingly declare that the level drain (or whatever) happened because the players failed to be smart enough to run away - when in fact it happened because the rules never gave the players a chance to act on their smarts. Excellent set of observations. Seems to me that it would be good to leave some clues around to indicate there might be a dangerous creature nearby, e.g. a gnawed femur or pelvis, or signs that there's a tomb nearby, or a barrow - as in "barrow-wight", yes? I suppose you could build a dungeon where things just randomly happen, but that seems almost too chaotic, especially given what you've noted here. |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 7, 2021 8:41:30 GMT -6
You open an undistinguished door (or run into a random encounter), OOPS it's a level-draining / paralysing / disproportionately hard-hitting thing. You roll for initiative, OOPS, the thing wins initiative. It rolls attack, OOPS, the damage is done. And then comes the first time during the encounter when players actually get to make any decisions (such as running away). You run away, fine, but you've already lost your level literally before you could do anything. And even then, if you decide to run away, OOPS, the monster chases after you and gets a chance to attack some more while you can't strike back since you're running, it really would have been better to just stay and fight. Yep. The party is on the 6th level of the dungeon. The referee rolls a wandering monster using the 5th-level chart in GREYHAWK (p. 55), getting a "5": spectres. Let us suppose 1-4 spectres, with the roll indicating 3 spectres. Now roll for surprise... The party is surprised. The spectres attack, draining TWO levels with each hit. Now initiative. The spectres win. More double level hits. (In all this time, the party has done nothing wrong. All they've done is walk down a corridor.) "RUN!" The party runs. The referee looks at spectres' movement rate: 15" on land, and they can fly with a speed of 30"! How can the party escape? Even on foot, the spectres are faster, and if you take flying speed into account, the party gets lapped. Spells can't be cast while running or fighting, so no teleporting to safety. It seems to me that, absent some very unusual circumstances (or a wish), the entirety of the party will simply get level-drained down to zero, turning into spectres themselves. None of the above is particularly unlikely: 1. Wandering around a dungeon for days on end will result in a good many wandering monster encounters. Sooner or later, it will be spectres. 2. Sometimes the party gets surprised and the monster doesn't. 3. Sometimes the party loses initiative. Just those considerations result in an immensely probable transformation of the entire party into spectres. To me, that's not old-school. To me, that's about as much fun as dropping your ice cream cone on the sidewalk: no cause for tears, but sure would have been better not to have happened. ymmv EDIT: Let's try to calculate probabilities of the above encounter: 1. Checking every 3 turns with a 1 in 6 chance of an encounter, with a 1 in 20 chance of it being spectres: An encounter on average every 9 turns. Suppose that the spectres are the 10th wandering monster encountered, so it will be spectres after 90 turns (or 15 hours). Probably happen near the end of the second day of exploration. Nearly inevitable, eventually. 2. Party gets surprised, but not the spectres: 2 in 9 chance (or 22%). So this will happen, on average, every fifth encounter. Happens all the time! 3. Spectres win initiative: 50%. Flip a coin: Heads you win, tails you lose. |
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Post by delta on Apr 7, 2021 23:56:21 GMT -6
My dilemma with level drain is whether to revert back to the hit points or just randomly roll how many hit points are lost and later regained. The former involves keeping track of hit points per level, which I doubt anyone does. The latter risks ending up with fewer hit points when the character originally had. While you can explain that as a harrowing experience that stayed with the character, the players I've gamed with will not enjoy it at all. This is an important point. What I'd do now is pro-rate the existing hit points, take away exactly 1/Nth for the drain, and record that. Get that many back if they regain the level. Last time this happened, I took away the 1/Nth, then they regained a level, the (new) player asked what happens then, and I wavered. I gave them the option of getting that number back or re-rolling (half-joking and mentally hoping they'd take the former). They were convinced by another player to re-roll, which came up "1" and we all felt shirtty. Lesson learned. |
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Post by geoffrey on Apr 8, 2021 7:50:23 GMT -6
Castles & Crusades retains level drain but ameliorates it:
1. Easier to avoid: You get a saving throw to avoid the loss of levels.
2. Easier to fix: The cleric spell, restoration, is a 4th-level spell, so clerics as low as 7th-level can cast it.
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Post by dicebro on Apr 8, 2021 9:44:00 GMT -6
What if you didn’t eliminate XP or levels. Instead the character is treated as if he were lower level. Lower HP, fights and saves like a lower level character. Also his advancement stops until he can be blessed by a High Priest?
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 8, 2021 14:08:34 GMT -6
I think Magical Research of new spells offers an underappreciated RAW way for clever players to mitigate the effects of level-draining undead. A 5th level Magic-User should be able to research a 3rd level Protection from Undead, 10' Radius that is equivalent to Protection from Evil, 10' Radius - which lasts for 12 turns per casting. Not that a precedent for such a magical effect in the game is needed for a new spell, but in this case there is one in the form of the Protection from Undead scroll.
Other spells are possible, too, such as a Resist Level Drain, or a Minor Restoration (restores only if cast in a short time duration after draining). Clerics are also capable of researching spells per Men & Magic. This is a good usage of all that gold that characters need to level up.
And of course, 11th level and higher M-Us could make magic items with such powers.
As an alternative, a more lenient DM might interpret the undefined "Enchanted" monsters protected by Protection from Evil as including undead, which after all have some sort of undefined "enchantment" providing them with a motivating force.
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Post by Desparil on Apr 8, 2021 15:40:58 GMT -6
What if you didn’t eliminate XP or levels. Instead the character is treated as if he were lower level. Lower HP, fights and saves like a lower level character. Also his advancement stops until he can be blessed by a High Priest? This is similar to the 3rd Edition idea of "negative levels" that cause generic/simplified penalties of -1 to attack rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks, -5 maximum hit points, and losing one spell slot of the highest level that you can cast. Main difference being that 3E calls for a saving throw after 24 hours, removing the penalties on a success but resulting in permanent level loss on a failure. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Apr 8, 2021 21:29:02 GMT -6
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Post by howandwhy99 on Apr 8, 2021 21:37:21 GMT -6
Level Drain is like Save-versus-death poison in early level D&D monsters. Early players should be very afraid of stupid beetles and giant ants, not just giant spiders. (better to attack from range)
These deadly powers are not necessarily obvious, but continuous play through each class level while encountering many monster types is what allows effective and good play. Much of the point of the game is to determine better ways to beat different monsters.
If you know [-]you are going to[/-] may face high-powered undead level-draining types, then you need to figure out how to deal with this power before you encounter it. It's not just taking a wiser strategy and running away from deadly meaningless combats. But also determining safer tactics to use against such foes. This path should begin when first dealing with similar foes. Not simply ghouls for the first time, but these poisonous creatures as well.
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