Drain levels

[aldarron]

Aug 9, 2020 3:05:37 GMT -6 retrorob said:

I've never liked experience loss, partially because I hate bookkeeping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the very beginning Life energy levels were probably something different from levels/HD?

Correct, the pioneer of the idea appears to be Richard Snider in the RSV circa late 72 early 73. His method was to have a separate life level/energy stat, reminiscent of the stat in Outdoor Survival. In essence a constitution stat, and fwiw IMC energy drain is a Constitution drain.

Aug 9, 2020 3:05:37 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Last night I run a game session and one of the warriors was hit by a Wraith. "What's now?" the player asked. Well, Vol. II doesn't tell us much about the drain, it's only vol. III that states "fresh experience" is needed to regain "energy levels".

Fighter (F-W 3, HD 3, HP 15) had 6449 XP. During the session she gained another 1276 XP. I hate the idea to reduce her to 3000 XP as per AD&D DMG. So that's what I came up with:

Option #1

- F-W doesn't lose any XP and gains "fresh experience" (6449+1276=7725);
- by the book, she drops to 2nd level, she has HD 2 now;
- her HP are reduced to 12.

She lacks 275 XP to advance. If she gets the points, probably I let her have HD 4 (and re-roll hit points). Maybe I'll require Cure Disease be cast on her?

Option #2

- F-W loses XP, she has 3999;
- she is reduced to 2nd level and 12 HP;
- as she gained 1276 "fresh experience" for this adventure, total is 5275;
- she regain her lost level and can re-roll HP.

What do you think?

<shrug> IIRC Gygax posted a rule for OD&D that had level loss being at the mid point to advance. That might get you where you want to be a bit easier?

[retrorob]

aldarron

Thanks for confirming! That's what I thought, as TFFC quotes RSV (I remember your article as well). It seems that Gary mistook life energy level for HD/HP level.

One of my other players accumulated 415 891 XP (Lord). If he were to be reduced to only 180 000 by some nasty wight... As for the former example. For now I decided that poor F-W 3 won't lose any experience, only level and HD/HP. She will be at -1 until tag #drained is removed (perhaps by means of Dispel Evil rather than Cure Disease). So if she gains a new level, she will be F-W 3 again. After Dispel Evil is cast, she will rise to F-W 4.

[cometaryorbit]

Aug 9, 2020 11:17:29 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Aug 9, 2020 3:05:37 GMT -6 retrorob said:

I've never liked experience loss, partially because I hate bookkeeping. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at the very beginning Life energy levels were probably something different from levels/HD?

Correct, the pioneer of the idea appears to be Richard Snider in the RSV circa late 72 early 73. His method was to have a separate life level/energy stat, reminiscent of the stat in Outdoor Survival. In essence a constitution stat, and fwiw IMC energy drain is a Constitution drain.

I like that idea.

But how would it be recovered? Experience doesn't increase CON. Remove Curse or something?

[Desparil]

Aug 11, 2020 18:49:50 GMT -6 cometaryorbit said:

Aug 9, 2020 11:17:29 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Correct, the pioneer of the idea appears to be Richard Snider in the RSV circa late 72 early 73. His method was to have a separate life level/energy stat, reminiscent of the stat in Outdoor Survival. In essence a constitution stat, and fwiw IMC energy drain is a Constitution drain.

I like that idea.

But how would it be recovered? Experience doesn't increase CON. Remove Curse or something?

Perhaps it can't be. If you're inspired by Lord of the Rings at all, recall that Frodo never fully recovered from his wound at the hands of the Morgul-blade, despite the best efforts of Aragorn, Gandalf, and the elves. But if you do want it to be curable, Dispel Evil would probably be the most logical choice.

[waysoftheearth]

Agree with the above. I don't see why level drain "should" be reversible by anything short of a dispel evil or a wish.

On the other hand, level drain remains one of the most fiddly elements of the game for me. More and more I'm leaning toward a "permanent" (bar dispel evil, wish) constitution drain or ageing instead. It's so much simpler.

Aside from simplicity, I am digging the "slow burn" of a cumulative degeneration effect over the course of a campaign. This kind of thing seems to be a bit of a gap in btb D&D?

[Desparil]

Aug 16, 2020 8:18:55 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Agree with the above. I don't see why level drain "should" be reversible by anything short of a dispel evil or a wish.

On the other hand, level drain remains one of the most fiddly elements of the game for me. More and more I'm leaning toward a "permanent" (bar dispel evil, wish) constitution drain or ageing instead. It's so much simpler.

Aside from simplicity, I am digging the "slow burn" of a cumulative degeneration effect over the course of a campaign. This kind of thing seems to be a bit of a gap in btb D&D?

Making it a CON drain also makes it roughly equivalent to death from a long-term perspective, in that 1 point of CON is the price you pay for being raised from the dead. Less inconvenient in the short-term than poison since you don't die and may continue the current adventure, but more fearsome in a different way - the lack of a saving throw.

[tdenmark]

Level Drain is too much of a pain in the ass on so many aspects. It's not worth it. I don't have it in my campaigns.

I generally treat it as a temporary Strength or Constitution drain. Recover a point a day with solid rest. That is enough of a penalty and not as hard to calculate and track.

[geoffrey]

I myself do not use level-draining undead (which is, what? four of them? spectres, vampires, wights, and wraiths). I instead use all of the other sorts of undead. (And do not forget the cool undead monsters in the Fiend Folio!)

[derv]

I was looking at sieg 's recent post for Mike & Jim's Excellent Adventure which turned out to be them hosting Kask's YT channel. This led me to look at a couple of Kask's earliest videos. In one of them he talks about level drain. Essentially he says these monsters were intended to be used sparingly. They were primarily intended to send a message to high level characters that they weren't invincible. And if you're not high level, you should otherwise learn to run away.

So, basically a teaching tool

[retrorob]

Aug 16, 2020 14:46:23 GMT -6 Desparil said:

There is no constitution penalty for being raised in OD&D (unless you talk about your campaign?). But CON is very important. I understand that "survival" or "withstand" chance (based on CON) is some sort of a system schock, so I have my players roll for it. PC with CON 6 and less don't have a chance at all on the other hand, those with 13+ will always come back. So maybe such drain is a good idea.

[magremore]

Aug 17, 2020 1:19:09 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Aug 16, 2020 14:46:23 GMT -6 Desparil said:

There is no constitution penalty for being raised in OD&D (unless you talk about your campaign?). 

I think it’s an interpretation of the rule in Greyhawk that “your constitution score is also the number of times you may be resurrected.” 

[gemini476]

Aug 17, 2020 5:49:45 GMT -6 magremore said:

Aug 17, 2020 1:19:09 GMT -6 retrorob said:

There is no constitution penalty for being raised in OD&D (unless you talk about your campaign?). 

I think it’s an interpretation of the rule in Greyhawk that “your constitution score is also the number of times you may be resurrected.” 

Which in turn is kinda-sorta referenced in Men & Magic with "If the character's Constitution was weak, the spell will not bring him back to life". The Greyhawk rule seems to be a clarification of that very ambiguous sentence.

[magremore]

Aug 18, 2020 5:10:12 GMT -6 gemini476 said:

Aug 17, 2020 5:49:45 GMT -6 magremore said:

I think it’s an interpretation of the rule in Greyhawk that “your constitution score is also the number of times you may be resurrected.” 

Which in turn is kinda-sorta referenced in Men & Magic with "If the character's Constitution was weak, the spell will not bring him back to life". The Greyhawk rule seems to be a clarification of that very ambiguous sentence.

Sure could be, but I take the M&M line to be more about the % chance of survival and clarifying the info in the table, i.e., that CON 3 has 0% chance to be raised, sort of an obscure way to fill in the bottom end of the pattern of 10% chance per point above 3.

[dicebro]

The insertion of the wight or spectre must be handled delicately. Just learning, perhaps from a grizzled old npc, that there is a monster In the game with the power to drain levels is enough to Invoke terror in the hearts of many players. Level drainers are doomsday machines. See “Dr. Strangelove”. The point is that the players need to be sufficiently warned ahead of time. If they ignore the warning, it’s on them.

[waysoftheearth]

FWIW, I don't agree the players "need to be sufficiently warned ahead of time". If the game calls for terrible monsters, so be it. Monsters are not always "meant" to be beatable. The players should learn from their experience with nasty monsters but if they don't, well, I agree that one is on them.

Occasionally, it can happen that a player ends up facing an undead former character. Scary stuff

[cometaryorbit]

Aug 16, 2020 8:18:55 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Agree with the above. I don't see why level drain "should" be reversible by anything short of a dispel evil or a wish.

Yeah, I didn't even think of Dispel Evil.

[dicebro]

Ya know, a successful quest for a magic _______ (insert item here) that restores drained levels can easily solve this “level drain” issue once and for all. 😃

[dicebro]

Aug 19, 2020 5:35:05 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

FWIW, I don't agree the players "need to be sufficiently warned ahead of time". If the game calls for terrible monsters, so be it. Monsters are not always "meant" to be beatable. The players should learn from their experience with nasty monsters but if they don't, well, I agree that one is on them.

Occasionally, it can happen that a player ends up facing an undead former character. Scary stuff

Oh I let players know up front that vampires, spectres, wraiths and wights can drain levels.  They can’t Accuse me of bushwhacking them unfairly.  Also, many players don’t take notes and tend to forget the caveat anyway.  The smart players will try to figure out a way to defeat these creatures with minimal exposure. It’s been more fun to warn them, and let them react, than it is to just drain levels. Of course, I’m not against so called “meta-gaming” because, after all it is a game. But that’s another topic.

[hamurai]

Sometimes we house-ruled that level drain only affected hit dice, representing a permanent decline in health. Loss of attack and defense capabilities in addition to HD/HP loss was often too much of a death spiral for our group.

[barna10]

I prefer ability drain. It can be interpreted as permanent scars on the soul...touch of death...etc.

I allow restoration or other powerful magics to restore the drain.

[linebeck]

One of the things about OD&D as written which could counteract level drain without changing any of the rules is to allow characters to acquire magic items early, often, and liberally.

Modern play styles are far too parsimonious with respect to allowing the acquisition of powerful magic items, hence the fact that there is such a emphasis on level and abilities.

Given all the warnings about providing players with magic items that you find in the DMG and the general disdain for “Monty Hall” style games, I get the distinct feeling that the current longstanding attitude of “Don’t allow magic items don’t give the players too much gold” was a reaction to early play styles where everyone had powerful magic items at their disposal.

I don’t mind losing a level if I get to keep my magic sword and boots of flying. However, if the only thing I have to show for weeks of play is that I gained a single level, I agree that allowing a wight to take that level from me in a single encounter would be disillusioning and could be so frustrating that it would erase my enjoyment of the game.

Accordingly I would exhort Referees to keep level drain as is and counter it by being more liberal with providing players with magic items by placing these items in the dungeons.

[geoffrey]

Sept 20, 2020 11:27:19 GMT -6 linebeck said:

One of the things about OD&D as written which could counteract level drain without changing any of the rules is to allow characters to acquire magic items early, often, and liberally.

This is especially true about rings of wishes. A single wish can instantly restore all of a party's lost levels.

[Deleted]

One might respond with a wight tick, which slowly drains experience points? The player wonders why his afflicted adventurer never levels up, but on the negative plane, a bloated undead tick writhes in cadaverous ecstasy.

[tkdco2]

Sept 15, 2020 17:31:58 GMT -6 barna10 said:

I prefer ability drain. It can be interpreted as permanent scars on the soul...touch of death...etc.

I allow restoration or other powerful magics to restore the drain.

I've been considering draining constitution instead of levels. Perhaps wights and wraiths drain 1 point per touch, while spectres and vampires drain 2 points. Anyone whose CON drops to zero dies and comes back as an undead creature. The lost CON would return at a rate of 1 point per day.

Note that if CON scores provide a bonus to hit points, the hit point total drops as well. Hit points lost this way will be restored as the CON points return.

[geoffrey]

Mar 31, 2021 19:38:05 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I've been considering draining constitution instead of levels. Perhaps wights and wraiths drain 1 point per touch, while spectres and vampires drain 2 points. Anyone whose CON drops to zero dies and comes back as an undead creature. The lost CON would return at a rate of 1 point per day.

That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch.

[tkdco2]

Mar 31, 2021 21:21:37 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Mar 31, 2021 19:38:05 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I've been considering draining constitution instead of levels. Perhaps wights and wraiths drain 1 point per touch, while spectres and vampires drain 2 points. Anyone whose CON drops to zero dies and comes back as an undead creature. The lost CON would return at a rate of 1 point per day.

That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch.

I read about that somewhere, but I didn't know who started that. I may just do that instead. I first thought about using the CON drain years ago for a low-fantasy campaign I was creating. Since clerics and magic-users were rare, I decided that a temporary ability drain would work better for the players instead.

[dicebro]

Apr 1, 2021 2:34:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Mar 31, 2021 21:21:37 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

That is what Melan/Gabor Lux does, EXCEPT he has wights and wraiths drain 1-6 points of constitution per touch, and spectres and vampires drain 2-8 points per touch.

I read about that somewhere, but I didn't know who started that. I may just do that instead. I first thought about using the CON drain years ago for a low-fantasy campaign I was creating. Since clerics and magic-users were rare, I decided that a temporary ability drain would work better for the players instead.

Not trying to be abrasive here as I value everyone’s opinion.  But what is the problem about the undead’ s level/Xp drain? One option would be to create a magic item that restores levels and Xp. After all the Referee is god. The referee can create opportunities to restore what the vampires have taken away.  

[tkdco2]

I guess that depends on the needs of the group. If the group hardly plays, and the DM wants to get the PCs back up to speed ASAP, the CON drain may be more convenient. And sometimes it's more appropriate to the type of game you're playing.

I don't have a problem with level drain per se, but I think the CON drain is a better option.

[geoffrey]

Apr 1, 2021 7:22:41 GMT -6 dicebro said:

[W]hat is the problem about the undead’s level/Xp drain?

I've been playing A/D&D since I was 10 years old in 1980, and I've simply never liked level drain (either as a DM or as a player).

As a DM, I do not use the handful of monsters that drain levels. In OD&D, isn't that limited to spectres, vampires, wights, and wraiths? If for some reason I simply had to use those monsters, I would replace their level draining ability with Melan's constitution drain.

[dicebro]

Apr 1, 2021 17:04:06 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Apr 1, 2021 7:22:41 GMT -6 dicebro said:

[W]hat is the problem about the undead’s level/Xp drain?

I've been playing A/D&D since I was 10 years old in 1980, and I've simply never liked level drain (either as a DM or as a player).

As a DM, I do not use the handful of monsters that drain levels. In OD&D, isn't that limited to spectres, vampires, wights, and wraiths? If for some reason I simply had to use those monsters, I would replace their level draining ability with Melan's constitution drain.

Why do you not like it? Any particular reason? I’m interested in this topic.