Ways to Roll Abilities

[tdenmark]

In general I'm an advocate for 3d6 in order straight down the line. You get what you get and you don't get upset.

But I also like playing with alternatives. 4d6 drop lowest, assign results as you like is the best alternative.

I'd like to brainstorm even more. Here are a few:

6 + 2d6 for each ability in order.

Instead of results of 3-18 how about getting right to the modifier: start at -3 add 1d6 to each.

There are some point buy systems that are really good, but I'd like to avoid those for this thread -- unless it is a really clever take on rolling abilities.

What are some of your favorites? Do you have any unique or interesting new ones?

[Deleted]

Back when I was still buying lots of retro-clones I bought the first edition of James Spahn's "Hero's Journey", which was kind of like a modified Swords & Wizardry: Whitebox. He's come out with a 2e now that uses a different system, but this one's very rooted in 3lbb procedures except you have a race in mind before you roll, and roll differently for each race.

For example, Dwarves roll 2d6 + 6 for Strength and Constitution, 2d6 + 1 for Dexterity and Charisma, and 3d6 for everything else. By contrast, Elves roll 2d6 + 6 for Dexterity, Intelligence and Appearance (this has two additional stats than 3lbb, being Appearance and Luck), 2d6+ 1 for Constitution, Charisma and Luck, and 3d6 for everything else.

There's a game called Rad Hack that lets you play as Humans, Androids, Mutants or Psionics and each one rolls stats differently. Humans roll in a traditional 4d6, drop the lowest way. Robots use Point Buy. Mutants roll 1d20, discarding all results of 1 and 20, and Psionics roll like Humans but roll lower for physical stats (2d6+2 for STR, DEX and CON).

I'm sure there's lots of different alternative methods out in the OSR for games that use Ability Scores and 3lbb-like mechanics but these are two I'm personally familiar with and like the concept of.

[derv]

As I mentioned elsewhere, Gygax forwarded the 4d4+2 method in a Dragon article. This gives a range of 6-18 that curbs truly low scores.

I’m not a huge fan of the d4, but kind of like this method.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2021 13:10:12 GMT -6 derv said:

As I mentioned elsewhere, Gygax forwarded the 4d4+2 method in a Dragon article. This gives a range of 6-18 that curbs truly low scores.

I’m not a huge fan of the d4, but kind of like this method.

The d4 is a classic die, man! It goes all the way back to ancient times. 

What year is the Dragon article from, by the way? It seems like this would matter more in 1e or BECMI, with the wider range of Ability Modifiers, than in OD&D.  

[geoffrey]

I think the simplest, fastest way to roll ability scores is to first choose race and class, then roll percentile dice on the appropriate chart in the Rogues Gallery to find your ability scores.

A single roll of the percentile dice, and you're done determining your ability scores.

[tdenmark]

Feb 25, 2021 13:55:48 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I think the simplest, fastest way to roll ability scores is to first choose race and class, then roll percentile dice on the appropriate chart in the Rogues' Gallery to find your ability scores.

A single roll of the percentile dice, and you're done determining your ability scores.

Do you have a sample of this chart?

[retrorob]

... or you can use B1 character list.

For me it's 3d6 in order. Always.

[Zenopus]

Methods

Rules As Written: Roll 3d6 for each ability in order, choose class & adjust scores if possible (see below)

The Bullpen:  Repeat RAW several times, with the extras saved for replacement characters

Arnesonian:  Roll 2d6+6 for each ability in order, no adjustments

Gygaxian:  Roll 4d6-drop-lowest six times, assign results as desired, no adjustments

Holmesian:  Choose class, roll 3d6 for Prime Req. until 15+ is rolled, then 3d6 in order, may adjust

Ivesian:          Best 4 of 6 rolls (3d6) for Str/Int/Wis/Dex, best of two rolls for each of Con & Chr, no adj.

Swansonian:   As RAW, but also roll for a Swanson Ability on the table on the next page (humans only)

From the Holmes Ref "Rolling Up An Adventurer" sheet. Sources explained in more detail here:
zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2020/04/holmes-ref-rolling-up-adventurer.html

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2021 14:26:21 GMT -6 retrorob said:

... or you can use B1 character list.

Or basically pre-gens from any published module, yeah. Or an online character randomizer, which I enjoy. (To be honest, I see no practical or philosophical difference from a single die roll character generation or clicking a button on a personal computer. The dice can be physical objects or a computer algorithm. The end result is identical.)

[retrorob]

Same here. And when I play online, we use Discord, Roll20 etc.
As for the 3d6, I really like the bell curve. Most of the characters will be average. Since 2016 my group have generated 146 PC for Original and Basic D&D, using the 3d6-in-order method. Noble Septimus Aurelius was the strongest: STR 17, INT 13, WIS 17, CON 13, DEX 12, CHA 17 (sum of rolls: 89). He was killed by a Spectre in some desolate forest.

[geoffrey]

Feb 25, 2021 14:24:27 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Feb 25, 2021 13:55:48 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I think the simplest, fastest way to roll ability scores is to first choose race and class, then roll percentile dice on the appropriate chart in the Rogues Gallery to find your ability scores.

A single roll of the percentile dice, and you're done determining your ability scores.

Do you have a sample of this chart?

I have a PDF of the Rogues Gallery. For each of the eleven character classes of AD&D, there are a whole bunch (in the range of 20 to 100) characters listed. Each has the six ability scores noted. Let us take an example: I decide to play a human illusionist, so I roll the percentile dice (getting a 64) and consult page 13 of the Rogues Gallery and jot down the listed ability scores:

S: 10
I: 15
W: 10
D: 16
C: 14
Ch: 9

Done!

[derv]

Feb 25, 2021 13:26:33 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

The d4 is a classic die, man! It goes all the way back to ancient times. 

What year is the Dragon article from, by the way? It seems like this would matter more in 1e or BECMI, with the wider range of Ability Modifiers, than in OD&D.  

My problem with d4's is that they don't really roll. They just kind of go kerplunk on the table.

Dragon #26 (1979) is the issue with Gygax's article- it was about putting together a quick party.


As you say, low scores don't truly matter that much in OD&D- except for prime attributes, where a 6 or less earns a penalty of 20% from earned experience.


Comparatively:

3d6 gives an average of 10.5 with a 12.5% probability of rolling a 10 or 11.

4d6 drop the lowest av. 12.24 with 13.3% of 13 (12.9% of 12).

4d6 drop the highest av. 8.76 with 13.3% of 8 (12.9% of 9).

2d6+6 av. 13 with 16.7% of 13.

4d4+2 av. 12 with 17.2% of 12 (15.6% 11 or 13).

Edit- @ampleframework , I went back and looked and must have misremembered the Dragon article. It actually says 4d4, drop the lowest and assign to suit. This makes me think it’s a typo and should read “4d6”.

4d4 gives a range of 4-16 with an average of 10 and a probability of 17.2% of rolling 10.

4d4, drop lowest gives a range of 3-12. av. 8.62 and 19.9% of rolling 9.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2021 15:56:44 GMT -6 derv said:

As you say, low scores don't truly matter that much in OD&D- except for prime attributes, where a 6 or less earns a penalty of 20% from earned experience.

Yep. There's that. I guess if the referee demands you roll only once and you don't get a set of stats that ideally suits the xp progression of the class you had in mind, then you're in trouble, or have to deal with it. In that specific case, the 4d4+2 method would be safest. I personally don't have any strong preferences as a player, besides acknowledging the objective superiority of Elves and Clerics.  

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2021 15:11:34 GMT -6 retrorob said:

Same here. And when I play online, we use Discord, Roll20 etc.
As for the 3d6, I really like the bell curve. Most of the characters will be average. Since 2016 my group have generated 146 PC for Original and Basic D&D, using the 3d6-in-order method. Noble Septimus Aurelius was the strongest: STR 17, INT 13, WIS 17, CON 13, DEX 12, CHA 17 (sum of rolls: 89). He was killed by a Spectre in some desolate forest.

Reminds me, oddly and randomly enough, of a book in Morrowind I read. Hope of the Redoran. It was about a very gifted young warrior who died an ignoble death.

[tetramorph]

I use 3d6 straight down the line, stats then starting gp. I allow point buy, decreasing one score by 2 to increase another by 1. I suppose I could include starting gp in this.

When a particular class is called for, I allow 2 scores to be swapped without penalty (no point buy). I suppose I could include the starting gp roll as swappable in this context.

What about, 3d6 8 times, drop the lowest, arrange to taste between stats and starting gp?

Or just 7 rolls, no eight to drop a lowest?

Hmm. Feels like it would need to be for a cerain kind of game.

[Deleted]

Feb 25, 2021 17:18:37 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Hmm. Feels like it would need to be for a cerain kind of game.

I think there's something to that, regardless of what rules or procedures that will be used at the table. What's the tone of the game? Is it a campaign? One-shot? Private game? Convention game? 

Is it a dungeon delve? Hex crawl? West-Marches? Sandbox? Module? 

Seems like there might be a similar but slightly different way of generating characters that's more or less ideal for every variation on a theme imaginable. 

Like maybe for your sandbox campaign you use the AD&D method, and allow them each a minor magical item and max HP for level 1. Maybe your hexploration party all begin with 20,000 xp and a couple of resurrection or town portal scrolls. 

What's the story? What's the tone? You can do it a million different ways, right? 

[waysoftheearth]

Feb 25, 2021 15:56:44 GMT -6 derv said:

My problem with d4's is that they don't really roll. They just kind of go kerplunk on the table.

Use d12s instead, where 1-3=1, 4-6=2, 7-9=3, 10-12=4.

[hamurai]

I've often allowed 2d6+6 for prime attributes when playing campaign-ish games, as the group tends to have certain characters in mind already, and to make sure we can have some variety in class. Other scores 3d6. For one-shots I use 3d6 each.

2e's Dark Sun per default uses 4d4+4. That just comes to mind because last week we started to roll up Dark Sun characters for our group and I rolled 20 for Strength, which means a near-ridiculous +8 to damage. With stats of 20, 18, 13, 15, 13, 19 I feel like the character should be in Deities & Demigods. HP might be a bit low at 3rd level, though.

I'm just mentioning it because I honestly didn't remember that being the default method but I really can't remember which method we had used back in the day for our long-run Dark Sun campaign.

[Porphyre]

Feb 25, 2021 17:18:37 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Or just 7 rolls, no eight to drop a lowest?

3d6 in order, but I allow to re-roll the lowest score of 6, with obligation to stick to the new result (so it's worth the chance when you have rolled a 8-, less if you had 11 or 12).
For starting HP, I also allow 3 rolls, keep the best

[tombowings]

I have used the following, all with good results.

1. 3d6 in order
2. 3d6 in order, then increase any attribute to 15.
3. Write down any numbers you like.

[doublejig2]

I ran T1 where the players used the best ability score for each given class in Rogues Gallery. Super tough, but they still came one die roll away from TPK, fighting the 4th level cleric with the rod of smiting in the dungeon below the moat house.

I have also used 4d6 drop the low with 2 15s or a 16 or higher to make it official.

[linebeck]

Feb 26, 2021 6:53:35 GMT -6 tombowings said:

3. Write down any numbers you like.

This seems like a good choice if you are playing just 3LLB.  Or tell the players to pick one attribute they are good at and one thing you are bad at.  It's the hit points roll that matters for first level characters...  

[Deleted]

Feb 26, 2021 11:51:25 GMT -6 linebeck said:

Feb 26, 2021 6:53:35 GMT -6 tombowings said:

3. Write down any numbers you like.

This seems like a good choice if you are playing just 3LLB.  Or tell the players to pick one attribute they are good at and one thing you are bad at.  It's the hit points roll that matters for first level characters...  

Heretical Mentzerite that I am, I always just let 'em have max die roll plus CON modifier at level 1 and to re-roll Hit Dice and take the high number upon level up. The game's gonna kill them in a variety of instant ways regardless. 

[talysman]

I'm still a huge advocate of "3d6 in order OR just pick whatever scores you want, any way you want."

Since scores don't mean very much in OD&D, there's really no need to worry about fairness, especially if everyone can just pick what they want. And "pick what you want, any way you want" includes all other conceivable methods of assigning scores: point buy, weighted rolls, reassigned order, or just "I want all 18s".

Since I prefer players to have at least a little bit of randomness during character generation, I roll on some other random tables if the player chooses anything other than 3d6 in order. But I don't worry about the scores themselves.

[geoffrey]

I do NOT like inflated ability scores, so I never advocate for anything other than 3d6. I can see the logic, though, of the Castles & Crusades approach: You roll 3d6 six times, and arrange to taste. That way you can customize your character without inflating any scores one iota.

[flightcommander]

Jan 22, 2014 20:08:24 GMT -6 scalydemon said:

Character creation would be 3d6 in order, and then you get to add 2 to one dice roll of your choosing, and add 1 to another. [Elsewhere in the thread:] Adventurers would start at 5,000exp (3rd level). Max hit points at 1st then roll for the rest. Starting gold will be low, 50gp ...

I just yoinked this from one of the decommissioned PBP threads, it seems as good as anything else. One thing that jumps out is the monies, which is low-ish but not random. That, and the ability/hp tweaks, imply certain things about the context (ie, if people are going to invest time in a PBP game, maybe we can make their characters be a bit more resilient so the game can last longer) but also about the setting (low cash, everyone's poor, but the PCs are exceptional).

This is interesting to me because when we ask "how do we roll ability scores (and hit points, and what level do we start at, and etc)", we may actually be asking, "what kind of game do we want".

BITD the crew I typically played (AD&D) with used the "4d6 per ability, drop lowest, arrange to taste" method because it was easy, let the group design a mix of character classes and races that worked well together, and mostly avoided people (ie, adolescent boys) being grumpy about the character they rolled while still supplying a lot of excitement ("Wow, two 18's in a row!").

[howandwhy99]

For my game the character class is Far and Away the most important decision and the focus of the game for the player. This should probably be picked instead of rolled.

I would suggest to a player to roll 3d6 x7 in order until they rolled the character with appropriate Prime requisite scores for their chosen class. And then to give the remainders to the DM (for NPCs).

But I like to give a large array of pre-rolled sets for the players to pick from too.

[tdenmark]

Feb 25, 2021 17:43:28 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Feb 25, 2021 15:56:44 GMT -6 derv said:

My problem with d4's is that they don't really roll. They just kind of go kerplunk on the table.

Use d12s instead, where 1-3=1, 4-6=2, 7-9=3, 10-12=4.

Wouldn't d8/2 be better?

[flightcommander]

Here's an idea, I wonder if anybody's tried this? Assuming abilities are in SIWCDC order, have players roll 3d6 in order. The numbers must remain in the same sequence, but players can "shift" the the scores such that the highest number aligns with the prime requisite for their desired class. So if somebody rolled 18-15-12-9-6-3 they might naturally be a Fighting-Man, but if they wanted to play a Magic-User their scores could be adjusted to 3-18-15-12-9-6, and if they wanted to play a Cleric their scores could be adjusted to 6-3-18-15-12-9. That way you're not fudging dice, and you still get what you rolled, but you do have the chance to tweak the roll towards the class you want. Just a thought!

[talysman]

Feb 26, 2021 22:14:10 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Feb 25, 2021 17:43:28 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Use d12s instead, where 1-3=1, 4-6=2, 7-9=3, 10-12=4.

Wouldn't d8/2 be better?

The best is to use a renumbered die. d12s numbered 1 to 4 three times aren't that hard to find (I have several.) Haven't seen d8s number 1 to 4 twice, but there's a strong possibility someone makes one.