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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 27, 2021 17:50:51 GMT -6
yeah, Chessex makes eight-sided d4s but I find the 12-siders nicer to roll. You can get twelve-sided d4s with spots or Roman numerals to make them obviously different to your regular d12s (saves a few seconds of distraction checking you have the right die every time you pick one up).
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Post by atlantean on Feb 27, 2021 19:21:28 GMT -6
My method: Roll 3d6 seven times , throw out he lowest and keep the rest in order. The usual complaint: "We are heroes and our stats should reflect that. My response: Your stats do reflect that. In my campaign, most npcs have an 8 in everything.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 27, 2021 20:43:45 GMT -6
The usual complaint: "We are heroes and our stats should reflect that. My response: Your stats do reflect that. In my campaign, most npcs have an 8 in everything. You're flunkies. It's up to you to prove you're heroes.
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Post by doublejig2 on Feb 27, 2021 20:46:43 GMT -6
I agree. Complaining won't get you there. Just hard work and on task adventuring.
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Post by talysman on Feb 27, 2021 21:12:19 GMT -6
yeah, Chessex makes eight-sided d4s but I find the 12-siders nicer to roll. You can get twelve-sided d4s with spots or Roman numerals to make them obviously different to your regular d12s (saves a few seconds of distraction checking you have the right die every time you pick one up). I have the Roman d12s. Not sure if they started making those dice because someone made a Roman-themed FRPG that used twelve-sided d4 dice pools as their core mechanic, or whether that game was written because the designer saw the Roman d12s.
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Post by blackwyvern on Feb 27, 2021 23:47:25 GMT -6
I Usually do 3d6 arrange to taste. In some ways I would just prefer to not use attributes. They seem to always be a whine point.
It would be pretty easy to just limit Attribute scores to Low, Average and High as that is the breakdown in the book and is usually how I determine what effect attributes have on the game, though in a less formal way than listed below.
Let them choose one attribute to be High. If it is their PR give them 10% xp bonus in addition to the appropriate modifier.
Str: High +1 open door, low -1 same; Int: High +3 bonus languages; Low: Your character is thick headed and will probably miss a lot of what is going on. Wis: High +1 find secret doors, Low -1 same; Dex: High +1 missile attacks, Low -1 same; Chr: High 6 Henchmen +2 loyalty, Medium 4 henchmen, Low 2 henchmen -1 loyalty; Con: High +1 hp/hd, Low -1 same.
Beyond the first High attribute players can choose to make up to two other attributes High but must move one to Low for each one moved to High.
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 28, 2021 9:17:43 GMT -6
Roll a six sider for each stat
1: Low. -1 penalty to every dice roll. 2-3: Average. No adjustment. 4-5: Good. Add +1 to every appropriate roll using a d20 (rolls to-hit, saving throws) , +5% XP 6: Very good. Add +2 to every appriopriate dice roll with a d20 and +1 to every roll with a d6 (Hit dice, damage, open doors, listen , etc.). +10% XP
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Post by blackbarn on Mar 20, 2021 11:24:00 GMT -6
One simple way I like is to “re-roll all 1’s”, that is to say, roll 3d6 in order, but any time a die comes up 1, re-roll it, no matter how many times it may come up as 1. I also like to apply this to rolls for starting money and HP (all the rolls in character creation).
If that seems too generous, or you don’t like how it eliminates all chance for 3d6 totals below 6, you can just limit it to one re-roll per die, and if it comes up a 1 again you keep it.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 20, 2021 17:01:51 GMT -6
Roll two green dice and one red die. 1=str, 2=int, 3=wis, 4=con, 5=dex, 6=cha. The two green dice show "high" stats, the red die a "low" stat. The rest are average. If the red and a green dice are the same, they cancel out. If the two green dice are the same (and the red die is not) it's an exceptional score.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 20, 2021 17:29:20 GMT -6
I Usually do 3d6 arrange to taste. That's the rule in Castles & Crusades, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I thoroughly HATE inflated ability scores, and this method totally avoids that: 3d6 six times, period. But then you get to arrange them to best fit the character you'd like to play.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2021 17:33:17 GMT -6
I Usually do 3d6 arrange to taste. That's the rule in Castles & Crusades, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I thoroughly HATE inflated ability scores, and this method totally avoids that: 3d6 six times, period. But then you get to arrange them to best fit the character you'd like to play. That's good for a a campaign where you have a character concept in mind going in. I have no preference lately and delight in seeing what the dice tell me. You better believe if I'm playing in a game that allows Paladins or something with a ridiculously high Ability requirement and I actually roll that naturally, I'm gonna pick that, though.
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 20, 2021 17:55:42 GMT -6
That's the rule in Castles & Crusades, and I think it makes a lot of sense. I thoroughly HATE inflated ability scores, and this method totally avoids that: 3d6 six times, period. But then you get to arrange them to best fit the character you'd like to play. That's good for a a campaign where you have a character concept in mind going in. I have no preference lately and delight in seeing what the dice tell me. You better believe if I'm playing in a game that allows Paladins or something with a ridiculously high Ability requirement and I actually roll that naturally, I'm gonna pick that, though. I feel that way most of the time, too. But only most of the time. Occasionally I'd like to re-arrange the scores. The beauty of the C&C method is that, when you want to let the dice decide everything for you, you can elect to arrange them in the order rolled (in other words, 3d6 in order). Best of both worlds.
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Post by Falconer on Mar 25, 2021 10:34:17 GMT -6
4d6-drop-lowest in order.
Depending on the scope of the campaign, I often have a player roll 12 characters’ ability scores at the beginning, and that’s your stable.
Real dice rolls, please.
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 3, 2021 10:22:25 GMT -6
There is a deeper issue here, though: the original concept of "rolling up a character" meant "I am going to make some random rolls, with a predetermined order, and then use my creativity to devise what this character might be". That's different from "I am going to make some random rolls, then assign them to characteristics, to create a character I may already have in mind". Not that one is better than the other, but they are different from each other. The "roll dice, then assign them" moves closer to a stat array, or point buy, or make it all up. Conceptually, I like the challenge of rolling dice in order, and then seeing what I can make of that character - but I also like the Classic Traveller character generation system, in which you can die (go figure). My preferred system now? Roll 3d6 in order, then take a 7th roll, which may be assigned, at the player's discretion, to replace one of the original six rolls (doesn't have to be the lowest). If the total of all characteristics is 54 or less, start over. By the way, if you haven't used anydice.com, I very much recommend doing so. It's quite useful for understanding and visualizing the practical statistics of all of this.
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 3, 2021 11:12:57 GMT -6
My preferred system now? Roll 3d6 in order, then take a 7th roll, which may be assigned, at the player's discretion, to replace one of the original six rolls (doesn't have to be the lowest). If the total of all characteristics is 54 or less, start over. I like this one, when the 7th roll is the roll for Gold. The swap then forces a hard choice on the player at the beginning; e.g., my fighter can swap out his 7 Dexterity for 16, but at the expense (pun intended) of affording Plate Mail.
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Post by badger2305 on Apr 3, 2021 13:23:22 GMT -6
My preferred system now? Roll 3d6 in order, then take a 7th roll, which may be assigned, at the player's discretion, to replace one of the original six rolls (doesn't have to be the lowest). If the total of all characteristics is 54 or less, start over. I like this one, when the 7th roll is the roll for Gold. The swap then forces a hard choice on the player at the beginning; e.g., my fighter can swap out his 7 Dexterity for 16, but at the expense (pun intended) of affording Plate Mail. Ohh, that's evil. I might use that!
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giauz
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 51
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Post by giauz on Jun 29, 2021 8:21:21 GMT -6
Write an up or down arrow next to an ability score.This is where you begin assigning scores and in what direction you proceed.
Roll 6d20 and 1d6. Asign scores as quickly as you can put the 6d20 back in the dice bag. 1's are 11's, 2's are 12's, 19's are 9's, and 20's are 10's. Just remember: below 3= +10, and above 18= -10.
The 1d6 gives you your "bonus score" (as well as beginning HP). Start at your arrow again. If any score is 3, 9-12, or 18, add zero and decrease bonus score by 1 each. If 4-8, minus 1 from score and bonus score each. If 13-17, add one to the score and minus one from the bonus score each. When the bonus score is depleted, your final ability scores are determined.
This reduces rolling ability scores and HP to 1 roll, favors middling ability scores generally, and makes some fringe scores gain negative or positive modifiers for more interesting characters.
What do you guys think?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 10:31:43 GMT -6
MethodsRules As Written: Roll 3d6 for each ability in order, choose class & adjust scores if possible (see below) The Bullpen: Repeat RAW several times, with the extras saved for replacement characters Arnesonian: Roll 2d6+6 for each ability in order, no adjustments Gygaxian: Roll 4d6-drop-lowest six times, assign results as desired, no adjustments Holmesian: Choose class, roll 3d6 for Prime Req. until 15+ is rolled, then 3d6 in order, may adjust Ivesian: Best 4 of 6 rolls (3d6) for Str/Int/Wis/Dex, best of two rolls for each of Con & Chr, no adj. Swansonian: As RAW, but also roll for a Swanson Ability on the table on the next page (humans only) From the Holmes Ref "Rolling Up An Adventurer" sheet. Sources explained in more detail here: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2020/04/holmes-ref-rolling-up-adventurer.htmlThat was an interesting blog post. I've never heard of Ives or Swanson or seen the A&E zine. I can tell I am going to be spending some time at your blog.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 29, 2021 10:51:10 GMT -6
MethodsRules As Written: Roll 3d6 for each ability in order, choose class & adjust scores if possible (see below) The Bullpen: Repeat RAW several times, with the extras saved for replacement characters Arnesonian: Roll 2d6+6 for each ability in order, no adjustments Gygaxian: Roll 4d6-drop-lowest six times, assign results as desired, no adjustments Holmesian: Choose class, roll 3d6 for Prime Req. until 15+ is rolled, then 3d6 in order, may adjust Ivesian: Best 4 of 6 rolls (3d6) for Str/Int/Wis/Dex, best of two rolls for each of Con & Chr, no adj. Swansonian: As RAW, but also roll for a Swanson Ability on the table on the next page (humans only) From the Holmes Ref "Rolling Up An Adventurer" sheet. Sources explained in more detail here: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2020/04/holmes-ref-rolling-up-adventurer.htmlThat was an interesting blog post. I've never heard of Ives or Swanson or seen the A&E zine. I can tell I am going to be spending some time at your blog. More information on Alarums & Excursions here: odd74.proboards.com/thread/11726/alarums-excursions-back-issues-discussion
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Post by jeffb on Jun 29, 2021 18:59:48 GMT -6
I mostly use an "array" and let the players assign as desired. Whatever edition/game MCM,OD&D,C&C,WB, 5E, 4E, 13th Age, DW etc. Having one or two low scores and one or two good scores is fine, but I don't feel that if someone has a few bad dice rolls it makes the game more fun for them with a subpar character. I know someone will say "oh, I had a Fighter with a STR of 6 and 1 HP who was awesome" but those kinds of good experiences with poor characters are the exception, not the rule, IME. The vast majority of players want to have a competent character.
I think if I was going to do a 3d6 in order, I'd use "Ruins of Arduin"- 3d6 in order, any one score may be swapped with a 15.
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Post by tdenmark on Jun 29, 2021 20:41:26 GMT -6
Randomly rolling attribute scores is one of those sacred cows of OD&D that is really hard to let go of, but it is arguable the most imbalanced mechanic in the game. Point buy systems are cumbersome, not overly so, but a bit more than I want in character creation. Ultimately an array is the best system.
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giauz
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 51
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Post by giauz on Jun 29, 2021 21:31:41 GMT -6
Randomly rolling attribute scores is one of those sacred cows of OD&D that is really hard to let go of, but it is arguable the most imbalanced mechanic in the game. Point buy systems are cumbersome, not overly so, but a bit more than I want in character creation. Ultimately an array is the best system. An array does probably take less time than my 7d single-roll system and gives greater control of ability scores including two good, three middling, and one low, so the spread is always a little flavorful. Maybe to add a little randomness, roll 1d6 to see what ability the highest number in the array goes to and then the next 5 go in numerical order starting from that number. So, the array is 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and you roll a 3, so Str is 10, Int 8, Wis 15, Con 14, Dex 13, and Cha 12. For funzies reduce the 15 ability score to an 8 and make one of the other abilities an 8 (including the one that is already an 8) to make any other ability an 18.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 29, 2021 21:40:44 GMT -6
Randomly rolling attribute scores is one of those sacred cows of OD&D that is really hard to let go of, but it is arguable the most imbalanced mechanic in the game. Point buy systems are cumbersome, not overly so, but a bit more than I want in character creation. Ultimately an array is the best system. And so you might think, but here we must part company. I find arrays and point-buy systems discourage imagination, in that they make it possible for the player to play the same character again and again, which is invidious to the creativity required by a random roll. This isn't to say that randomly rolled characters are pure virtue; I have seen the luck of dice turn out uniformly badly. But excusing those wretches and allowing the player another opportunity is better than making a counting-house of character generation. (I've clearly been reading too much Patrick O'Brian earlier this evening.) A wee bit more seriously - what you find to be lamentable is an advantage in my mind; it is perfectly acceptable that we see things differently. I do not hold to my opinion so strongly that I could not bear the thought of an array or point-buy, but I do indeed prefer the challenge of the dice roll (and I've laid my method out earlier, so that's there).
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Post by Desparil on Jun 29, 2021 22:10:07 GMT -6
Randomly rolling attribute scores is one of those sacred cows of OD&D that is really hard to let go of, but it is arguable the most imbalanced mechanic in the game. Point buy systems are cumbersome, not overly so, but a bit more than I want in character creation. Ultimately an array is the best system. And so you might think, but here we must part company. I find arrays and point-buy systems discourage imagination, in that they make it possible for the player to play the same character again and again, which is invidious to the creativity required by a random roll. This isn't to say that randomly rolled characters are pure virtue; I have seen the luck of dice turn out uniformly badly. But excusing those wretches and allowing the player another opportunity is better than making a counting-house of character generation. (I've clearly been reading too much Patrick O'Brian earlier this evening.) A wee bit more seriously - what you find to be lamentable is an advantage in my mind; it is perfectly acceptable that we see things differently. I do not hold to my opinion so strongly that I could not bear the thought of an array or point-buy, but I do indeed prefer the challenge of the dice roll (and I've laid my method out earlier, so that's there). Have you actually experienced that, or is that just a hypothetical fear of yours? I've never played with totally random ability scores - it's always been roll and assign as you see fit, point buy, or an array - and not once in all those years have I seen anyone remake the same character over and over again. Not even for characters that died within a couple sessions of being created.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 29, 2021 22:59:05 GMT -6
]Have you actually experienced that, or is that just a hypothetical fear of yours? I've never played with totally random ability scores - it's always been roll and assign as you see fit, point buy, or an array - and not once in all those years have I seen anyone remake the same character over and over again. Not even for characters that died within a couple sessions of being created. Actually, I've seen it happen quite a bit. Having played with a lot of different people and a lot of different groups, there's often that one guy who just has to play the same sort of character over and over again. Sometimes I've been lucky, and someone will have two different characters they alternate between - but those two characters. In several cases, the characters ended up having nicknames, since they were pretty clearly clones. I have to admit that I find it a little weird that some people here are so into exactly how OD&D "ought" to be played in some respects, but then balk at random rolling. But we're back to what you like and how OD&D is set up to accommodate that - I'm actually quite happy that there are so many different ways to generate characters. But which one of these methods is "best"? Answer: the one that works for you. Here's a challenge: pick your character's class before randomly rolling your stats. Might not be your immediate cuppa, but it can provide an interesting challenge. (Don't knock it unless you've given it a fair chance.)
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Post by Desparil on Jun 29, 2021 23:33:04 GMT -6
]Have you actually experienced that, or is that just a hypothetical fear of yours? I've never played with totally random ability scores - it's always been roll and assign as you see fit, point buy, or an array - and not once in all those years have I seen anyone remake the same character over and over again. Not even for characters that died within a couple sessions of being created. Here's a challenge: pick your character's class before randomly rolling your stats. Might not be your immediate cuppa, but it can provide an interesting challenge. (Don't knock it unless you've given it a fair chance.) As mentioned, I've often played randomly rolled stats - I prefer it, personally - but always assigned as the player wishes. Unless it was an AD&D situation where it was a rare set of rolls that qualified for ranger or paladin or something, it's pretty much standard practice to pick your class before rolling, and then assign the rolls accordingly. So I've already fulfilled the letter of your challenge, though I suspect you're actually advocating for "roll stats in order, no modifications or swaps." In any case, I'm not telling you which way is best, just questioning the objection that non-random methods allow the creation of "clone" characters. I too have played with many different people and never once have I run into that behavior, I had only ever seen it as a joke in Knights of the Dinner Table comics where you'd have PCs like Knuckles VII or El Ravager III. My experience has been the exact opposite, that players will already be thinking about possible future characters, like "If this character dies I want to make a cleric next" or whatever. But honestly, I can't see any reason to begrudge someone wanting to play the same class again and again if that's what they enjoy; it really makes very little difference to me, whether as a fellow player or as the DM.
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 30, 2021 0:21:00 GMT -6
As mentioned, I've often played randomly rolled stats - I prefer it, personally - but always assigned as the player wishes. Unless it was an AD&D situation where it was a rare set of rolls that qualified for ranger or paladin or something, it's pretty much standard practice to pick your class before rolling, and then assign the rolls accordingly. So I've already fulfilled the letter of your challenge, though I suspect you're actually advocating for "roll stats in order, no modifications or swaps." In any case, I'm not telling you which way is best, just questioning the objection that non-random methods allow the creation of "clone" characters. I too have played with many different people and never once have I run into that behavior, I had only ever seen it as a joke in Knights of the Dinner Table comics where you'd have PCs like Knuckles VII or El Ravager III. My experience has been the exact opposite, that players will already be thinking about possible future characters, like "If this character dies I want to make a cleric next" or whatever. But honestly, I can't see any reason to begrudge someone wanting to play the same class again and again if that's what they enjoy; it really makes very little difference to me, whether as a fellow player or as the DM. In my experience, it's not just the same class, but I have encountered players (more than once) who have wanted to play essentially the same exact character. Usually, in their group, it's something of an in-joke. Truth be told, I've tended to shake my head a little and just let it go - not my character, usually not my game. But it's left me with a distinct preference for rolling up characters randomly, in order. I get it that that method isn't your preference - and as I said, that's totally cool. But it's not cool to assert - as some people have already - that arrays or point-buy is somehow the "best" method. That falls into the same category as saying "Ham and mustard sandwiches are demonstrably the best kind of sandwich" - don't be surprised if someone says, "um, well, I prefer something else." I can tell that you're skeptical about my experience, but I would hope that you would just credit it, because it is something I have seen, often enough. I can certainly credit that you haven't seen it, which probably has influenced your preferred method. But even if I hadn't seen it, I'd still hope you could acknowledge that people can have different things they like, without having to rank them. I've played several different ways, and I'm happy to go with whatever system a referee wants for their own game. (Dropped out some material that was a repeat of things I've already said.)
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Post by Desparil on Jun 30, 2021 17:59:54 GMT -6
As mentioned, I've often played randomly rolled stats - I prefer it, personally - but always assigned as the player wishes. Unless it was an AD&D situation where it was a rare set of rolls that qualified for ranger or paladin or something, it's pretty much standard practice to pick your class before rolling, and then assign the rolls accordingly. So I've already fulfilled the letter of your challenge, though I suspect you're actually advocating for "roll stats in order, no modifications or swaps." In any case, I'm not telling you which way is best, just questioning the objection that non-random methods allow the creation of "clone" characters. I too have played with many different people and never once have I run into that behavior, I had only ever seen it as a joke in Knights of the Dinner Table comics where you'd have PCs like Knuckles VII or El Ravager III. My experience has been the exact opposite, that players will already be thinking about possible future characters, like "If this character dies I want to make a cleric next" or whatever. But honestly, I can't see any reason to begrudge someone wanting to play the same class again and again if that's what they enjoy; it really makes very little difference to me, whether as a fellow player or as the DM. In my experience, it's not just the same class, but I have encountered players (more than once) who have wanted to play essentially the same exact character. Usually, in their group, it's something of an in-joke. Truth be told, I've tended to shake my head a little and just let it go - not my character, usually not my game. But it's left me with a distinct preference for rolling up characters randomly, in order. I get it that that method isn't your preference - and as I said, that's totally cool. But it's not cool to assert - as some people have already - that arrays or point-buy is somehow the "best" method. That falls into the same category as saying "Ham and mustard sandwiches are demonstrably the best kind of sandwich" - don't be surprised if someone says, "um, well, I prefer something else." I can tell that you're skeptical about my experience, but I would hope that you would just credit it, because it is something I have seen, often enough. I can certainly credit that you haven't seen it, which probably has influenced your preferred method. But even if I hadn't seen it, I'd still hope you could acknowledge that people can have different things they like, without having to rank them. I've played several different ways, and I'm happy to go with whatever system a referee wants for their own game. (Dropped out some material that was a repeat of things I've already said.) I'm not skeptical that it happened - where would the KODT jokes come from if it never happened? What I'm skeptical of is that it's a problem, which is what was implied when you said "arrays and point-buy systems discourage imagination." So I'm going to have to flip this on you - you said "ham and mustard sandwiches are boring and flavorless," so you shouldn't be surprised when other people hit back with "um, actually that's my favorite kind of sandwich."
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Post by badger2305 on Jun 30, 2021 18:59:24 GMT -6
I'm not skeptical that it happened - where would the KODT jokes come from if it never happened? What I'm skeptical of is that it's a problem, which is what was implied when you said "arrays and point-buy systems discourage imagination." So I'm going to have to flip this on you - you said "ham and mustard sandwiches are boring and flavorless," so you shouldn't be surprised when other people hit back with "um, actually that's my favorite kind of sandwich." As this point, it appears to me that we are in agreement with one another. There is no "best" way to do something; there are different ways of generating characters, and people can choose which one(s) they like for their own games. There's nothing wrong - in fact, a great deal right - about having a variety of methods. Where we fall into difficulty is treating these subjective preferences as if they can be objectively ranked. Perhaps it would be best if we shook hands and moved on - I would appreciate that.
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Post by plethon on Jul 1, 2021 10:07:42 GMT -6
My preferred system now? Roll 3d6 in order, then take a 7th roll, which may be assigned, at the player's discretion, to replace one of the original six rolls (doesn't have to be the lowest). If the total of all characteristics is 54 or less, start over. I like this one, when the 7th roll is the roll for Gold. The swap then forces a hard choice on the player at the beginning; e.g., my fighter can swap out his 7 Dexterity for 16, but at the expense (pun intended) of affording Plate Mail. I love this idea. It could potentially go the other way as well; I sacrifice an ability in order to increase my gold supply.
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