Klytus, I'm bored.

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2017 18:15:07 GMT -6 murquhart72 said:

One last reiterated question, because I'm a glutton for punishment:
Does the Referee roll all the dice in the game (ability rolls, hit dice, saving throws, combat & damage rolls, etc.)? If not, what types of dice (or situations), if any, are PLAYERS expected to roll? I'm wondering how much control over dice-rolling I should have in my games as opposed to when the players get to roll some bones.

It varies.

I roll for all monster to-hit and damage rolls and saving throws. Players roll for PCs and their henchmen, but that is not a rule, it is a custom.

Frequently when the players are attempting a dangerous maneuver I let THEM roll. "Roll 2d6 and high is good for you."

But part of the reason is I LIKE being surprised too. "Play the dice as they fall" can have some very interesting effects.

[scottyg]

Mike, how many levels deep is your dungeon? Have many players made it to the bottom?

[Deleted]

16 with various sub levels, and I don't think any.

[geoffrey]

Michael, does the inclusion of wooden and silver crosses in the equipment list imply that clerics in the old days were crypto-Christians, or were the crosses meant as nothing more than defenses against vampires?

"Vampires cannot abide the smell of garlic, the face of a mirror, or the sight of a cross. They will fall back from these if strongly presented."

[Scott Anderson]

Not very Crypto in my opinion! They were Christian. Look at the spell list. Pretty much every spell is something either Moses or Jesus did as a miracle.

Let me piggyback Geoffrey on this though: there was mechanical difference between a sword and a mace, for instance, for wargamers. You didn't need it written down. You didn't need a rule for it, per se. What about crosses of wood versus crosses of silver?

[Deleted]

There was no difference between sword and mace in game.

Silver crosses were more sturdy, wooden crosses were cheaper.

And vampires are straight out of Hammer films.

[AborTheMighty]

Sept 26, 2017 16:05:41 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

There was no difference between sword and mace in game.

Silver crosses were more sturdy, wooden crosses were cheaper.

And vampires are straight out of Hammer films.

This would explain why upon reading the description I immediately thought of Christopher Lee.

[raisin]

Was there any situation (E.g. 4HD FM vs 1-1HD Goblins) in which Fighting-Men get multiple attacks against lesser foes? What about high level Clerics and Magic-Users?

I'm trying to figure out where these came from in Delving Deeper.

[waysoftheearth]

probably the wrong thread for Delving Deeper questions. But check out top of M&T p5.

[raisin]

I forgot this bit, but it makes sense. I was mainly curious about whether that applied to PCs in the campaigns of olde.

[verhaden]

annarchive.com/files/Strv102.pdf

Round 2: Initiative goes to the Hero.

Score required to hit Orcs -- 11 (4th level fighter vs. AC 6).

Assume the following dice score by the Hero: 19; 01; 16; 09. Two out of four blows struck...

Note that he is allowed one attack for each of his combat levels as the ratio of one Orc vs. the Hero is 1:4, so this is treated as normal (non-fantastic) melee, as is any combat where the score of one side is a base 1 hit die or less.

odd74.proboards.com/thread/10757/monsters-get-multiple-attacks-normal

Feb 28, 2015 20:53:01 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Hey, ya wanna know how Gary REALLY did it?

A 4th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d4 to see how many orcs got killed.
A 6th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d6 to see how manh orcs got killed.

Et cetera.

And a monster versus ordinary men... he used the monster's hit dice for levels, rolled a die of that number, and that's how many ordinary men got killed.

"Ordinary" was anything with 1 HD or less.

That's also, by the way, why it was suicidal/useless to bring ordinary men at arms into the dungeon past level 1 or maybe 2 at most.

And

Jan 2, 2015 22:46:30 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

1) CHAINMAIL. Hero fights as 4 men.

2) Don't know, but fighters over first level definitely got one attack per level on 1 HD monsters.

[Deleted]

Yep.

[EdOWar]

Feb 28, 2015 20:53:01 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Hey, ya wanna know how Gary REALLY did it?

A 4th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d4 to see how many orcs got killed.
A 6th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d6 to see how manh orcs got killed.

Et cetera.

And a monster versus ordinary men... he used the monster's hit dice for levels, rolled a die of that number, and that's how many ordinary men got killed.

"Ordinary" was anything with 1 HD or less.

That's also, by the way, why it was suicidal/useless to bring ordinary men at arms into the dungeon past level 1 or maybe 2 at most.

That's very interesting. Are there any other "shortcuts" Gary used when DMing?

[Scott Anderson]

Did you ever try out the weapon vs. armor tables? How did that work out?

Asking because I'm designing a human-only campaign with lots of various kinds of soldiers. It's during an historical period where it might be interesting, plus a large number of figures will wear some armor.

[Zenopus]

Feb 28, 2015 20:53:01 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Hey, ya wanna know how Gary REALLY did it?

A 4th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d4 to see how many orcs got killed.
A 6th level fighter versus orcs... he rolled a d6 to see how manh orcs got killed.

Et cetera.

And a monster versus ordinary men... he used the monster's hit dice for levels, rolled a die of that number, and that's how many ordinary men got killed.

"Ordinary" was anything with 1 HD or less.

That's also, by the way, why it was suicidal/useless to bring ordinary men at arms into the dungeon past level 1 or maybe 2 at most.

Gronan, one clarification on this - did the Hero (or monster) versus normal men need to make an attack roll first and hit, and then roll a d4, or did the Hero just roll a d4 each round to see how many were hit and killed?

[Deleted]

At first Gary used the "roll to hit, roll for damage." Later he switched to "you're sixth level, you kill 1d6 worth." No to hit roll.

[Zenopus]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[robertsconley]

Oct 28, 2017 10:29:27 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

At first Gary used the "roll to hit, roll for damage." Later he switched to "you're sixth level, you kill 1d6 worth." No to hit roll.

What prompted the change? I can imagine why I would make such a change (the party got into a conflicts with dozens of orcs and I don't want to use Battlesystem my normal go-to system for mass combat).

[Stormcrow]

Because it's a lot quicker to say "You slaughtered... [clatter] four mooks" than it is to say "Swing number one.. [clatter, check] hit. You did... [clatter] two points. It's still up. Swing number two... [clatter, check] miss. Swing number three..." Etc.

[robertsconley]

Oct 29, 2017 6:57:50 GMT -6 Stormcrow said:

Because it's a lot quicker to say "You slaughtered... [clatter] four mooks" than it is to say "Swing number one.. [clatter, check] hit. You did... [clatter] two points. It's still up. Swing number two... [clatter, check] miss. Swing number three..." Etc.

That the obvious answer. I am interested in the specifics if it could be remembered. If can't be recalled oh well and it is still a good mechanic to use.

Based on my work trying to recreate the math behind the Battlesystem resolution table the actual probabilities are a bell curve. So instead of a single die I would look for a 2 dice combo to replicate the odds. For example for a 6th level fighter I would roll 2d3 instead of 1d6. For the odd levels I would add +1.

For those interested in the math, the odds of having X successes in Y attempt at Z odds is a binomial distribution. What the Battlesystem designers did was to take that and combine it with armor class, THACO, and damage dice to produce a chart that with one roll told you how many hit dice of damage a group of X guys inflicted on another troop. Quite elegant and while designed for AD&D works with any edition of D&D.

[Deleted]

No, I can't remember. But by the time we were all 5th or 6th level, rolling that many attacks would be a pain in the ass.

[krusader74]

Oct 29, 2017 10:40:28 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Based on my work trying to recreate the math behind the Battlesystem resolution table the actual probabilities are a bell curve. So instead of a single die I would look for a 2 dice combo to replicate the odds. For example for a 6th level fighter I would roll 2d3 instead of 1d6. For the odd levels I would add +1.

For those interested in the math, the odds of having X successes in Y attempt at Z odds is a binomial distribution. What the Battlesystem designers did was to take that and combine it with armor class, THACO, and damage dice to produce a chart that with one roll told you how many hit dice of damage a group of X guys inflicted on another troop. Quite elegant and while designed for AD&D works with any edition of D&D.

You could get a binomial distribution using d6 (or d10) dice pools. For example, a 6th level fighting man faces off against 6 orcs. The orcs are AC 6. so the FM hits an orc on a roll of 11 or better on a d20. Probability( d20 >= 11 ) = 50%. So instead of rolling a d20 six times, one at a time, and looking for scores in the range 11-20, you could instead roll six d6s all at once, and count up how many score in the range 4-6. (Skip damage rolls, of course. A "hit" automatically kills.) Or you could roll six d10s and count how many hit in the range 6-10. It's still six rolls any way, whether you use the ACS with a d20 or this proposed dice pool method, but I find it easier to roll a fistful of d6s or d10s at once rather than d20s one-at-a-time. This is more like the CHAINMAIL mass combat system than Battlesystem. You'd need to translate the ACS table into a table of hit-ranges, after settling on using a d6 or a d10.

[robertsconley]

Oct 29, 2017 14:54:43 GMT -6 krusader74 said:

[You could get a binomial distribution using d6 (or d10) dice pools.

That not any different than rolling six attacks. You just rolling all six dice at once and counting the successes.

This shows what I mean. For each given odds a 2d6 chart is given. The result tells you how many of the ten mens hit. What I haven't been able to manage is to come up with a pattern that allows me to combine them into a single column chart. Where you roll 2d6 and subtract (or add) AC and do the opposite for to hit bonus. Then you look up the number and that how many hit. From there I can figure out how many hit dice of damage is done based on the damage dage.

[Zenopus]

The rule makes a lot of sense if you look at the monster encounters in OD&D Monster Treasure Assortment. For example, the 4th level tables include encounters with groups of 4-40 Centipedes, 5-50 Giant Rats, 10-60 Goblins and 10-40 Orcs. This would speed up combat greatly with such large groups (e.g. 56 goblins), and would be particularly useful if there a lot of wandering monster combats.

[krusader74]

Oct 29, 2017 16:16:50 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Oct 29, 2017 14:54:43 GMT -6 krusader74 said:

[You could get a binomial distribution using d6 (or d10) dice pools.

That not any different than rolling six attacks. You just rolling all six dice at once and counting the successes.

There are a number of practical and aesthetic differences, though I realize not everyone will appreciate them:

• In a standard set of polyhedral dice, the d6s are 16mm and the d20 is 23mm. So it's easier to fit a bunch of d6s in my fist. (Even more so, because I use 30mm d20s, which are easier on my eyes and have a nicer heft to them than the 23mm). And for really big dice pools, there are tiny 5mm d6s.
  
• It's faster to roll a fistful of dice concurrently than consecutively, so it saves time.
  
• I have tons of d6s, but only a few d20s.
  
• Buying d6s in bulk is usually cheaper than other dice.
  
• It's faster to count successes on a d6 than a d20, because there are fewer faces.
  
• I am not sacrificing as much mathematical consistency with the ACS, like I am if I use a discrete uniform distribution by simply rolling one d6 to count kills.
  
• I do, however, sacrifice some accuracy, since a d6 is grainier than a d20: 16.67% granules versus 5% granules.
• Some of us simply enjoy rolling big giant fistfuls of dice.
  

To approximate ACS probabilities with a d6 dice pool, I wouldn't over think it. A rough approximation for the success range might be [edited nov. 3]:

AC + Level	success range on a d6	P(success)
3 - 4	6+	16.7%
5 - 8	5+	33.3%
9 - 12	4+	50.0%
13 - 17	3+	67.7%
18 - 21	2+ (anything but "1")	83.3%
22+	1+ (automatically hits)	100.00%

The method is...

Pre-conditions: Attacker is a Level 2+ fighting man, and defenders are one-hit-die mooks

1. Determine defenders' AC* and attacker's Level and sum (AC + Level)
2. Use the table to lookup the success range
3. Roll a number of d6s equal to Level
4. Count successes: Each success kills one mook

* If the defenders' ACs vary, you could use a weighted sum, and kill off mooks with the highest AC first. That means re-determining AC+Level each round.

Example 1. A Level 6 fighting man encounters 6 orcs, AC 6. Level + AC = 12. So he rolls 6 d6s and counts each 4+ as a kill.

Example 2. A Level 8 fighting man encounters seven duergar, who fight as 1 HD dwarfs with AC 4. So Level + AC = 12 also. He rolls 8 d6s (even though there are only 7 targets) and counts each 4+ as a kill.

[robertsconley]

I missed the part about using d6s instead of d20. I see where you are going now.

[sixdemonbag]

I love d6s, but I do not love dice pools. It's my eternal struggle. 

[Scott Anderson]

You guys are building a simple wargames system right before our eyes. It's great. So far you've done unit versus unit and unit versus hero - and it's so simple. I love it.

Keep going, this is wonderful

[Deleted]

Why not just use CHAINMAIL?

[robertsconley]

Oct 30, 2017 17:20:06 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Why not just use CHAINMAIL?

Because I like Battlesystem approach better when it comes to D&D campaigns and GURPS Mass Combat when it not D&D.