Valandil
Level 2 Seer
Master Of Dungeons
Posts: 44
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Post by Valandil on Jul 16, 2013 22:54:07 GMT -6
I moved to the outskirts of my town a year ago now, and thus I have been quite disconected from the internet. Every now and then I got online and checked out a thing or two (mostly 4chan traditional gaming board), but I didn't really get into my beloved old school sites (such as this amazing board) for fear of discovering that the community is dead/dying (not literally, you know). The James Mal incident last year added quite a lot to this sentiment, I must say. Tonight I dared to get into the boards and scout the blogs I used to read, and I was wondering... how are we right now? How is the OSR these days? Are we less than in the first days? Are we dissapearing? Am I the only one who misses reading the Grognardia blog everyday?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2013 23:17:11 GMT -6
If anything, I think we're somewhat more mainstream - although I'm a newcomer to the movement, and this is a fairly impressionistic opinion.
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Post by zarathustra on Jul 17, 2013 6:59:16 GMT -6
I think the blog scene is definately quieter, due to three factors. Jmal & Grognardia and the ensuing cluster**** left a bad taste in many mouths and I'm guessing his blog was one of the most widely read previously.
Jeff Rients blog was another major one that is pretty quiet now due to his studies.
The third factor is the rise of google+. When that caught on I noticed a few of the smaller boards quiet down and less blogging. I guess people have moved over to google+ but I'm not on it so I don't know. I do see that the online gaming FLAILSNAILS thing has got some traction.
From what I can see there is as much or more OSR type product coming out tha ever, I've given up trying to keep abreast of it. The success of the WOTC reprints suggests the OSR has been noticed as a market at least.
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Post by coffee on Jul 17, 2013 7:27:42 GMT -6
Yes, the blogs have been quieter since the advent of Google+.
But also, the thing about the OSR is that most of the movers and shakers are people who aren't satisfied with the stuff "the industry" is giving them. They want to do their own thing, strike off in their own direction.
In a way, it's like the hobby's response to D&D in the first place. There was a game, and suddenly there were all these other games. And it was not just imitation; each new game sought to resolve an issue (real or imagined) with D&D. Each one had it's proponents and opponents, and many people thought they had discovered the 'one true way(tm)'.
But in the final analysis, it's just a bunch of people playing games and having fun.
And that's all it really needs to be.
That's my two coppers, anyway.
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Post by thorswulf on Jul 17, 2013 7:52:45 GMT -6
Well one thing is certain indie games are on the rise. With Kickstarters backing so many different genres it's a gamers paradise in that respect. It's also a headache when you het tempted by all those nifty toys! *Sigh* I'm still flummoxed at this idea of RPGs needing to be 400+ pages and hardbound in full color. I don't buy into that BS, and I don't buy the games either. For the money you spend on one of those monstrosities, you can buy two or three OSR products and still have a good time. I think the RPG industry studied Games Workshop's business model a little too closely. They are not selling games, they are selling mood, theme, and settings with a rules system that is passable to overdone. Mind you this is my opinion. Feel free to disagree or agree as you see fit.
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Post by makofan on Jul 17, 2013 7:53:11 GMT -6
Post less, play more. I GM eight games right now - too busy playing, robbing, plundering, borrowing from the OSR to post about the OSR!
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 17, 2013 8:06:24 GMT -6
Well, this is tricky since no one really seems to agree on what the OSR is anymore. To me, it's all about getting folks to play and enjoy "old school" style gaming, and I think this is becoming a success. Note that "Free RPG Day" had a freebie for SWORDS & WIZARDRY as well as a freebie for TUNNELS & TROLLS. This helps get folks playing old school style.
In addition, groups like Goodman Games have switched their marketing from the 3E/4E style to their own DCC RPG, which to me is very old school in feel.
As others have mentioned above, there are many other indie groups putting out product so it's not just a couple of big-boy companies putting out product.
WotC has recognized an interest in "old school" with the re-release of 1E and 2E products, as well as the forthcoming OD&D re-release. And books like the Rules Cyclopedia have hit PDF.
Does everyone play old school? No. Should they? No. Has the OSR made an impact in the world of RPGs? Yes.
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Post by Ghul on Jul 17, 2013 8:52:05 GMT -6
I think James Mal. is a good egg who ran into some personal and professional stumbling blocks. I'm confident he'll bounce back eventually, and when he does, I hope he resumes Grognardia.
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Post by Melan on Jul 17, 2013 10:23:14 GMT -6
Dead.
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Post by scottenkainen on Jul 17, 2013 10:58:47 GMT -6
I think it's too limiting to weigh the OSR movement solely by its presence on blogs. Fin and others here have it right, the Old School movement has spread out much more -- had always been spread out much more -- than just some "big-name" blogs.
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
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Post by kent on Jul 17, 2013 13:28:32 GMT -6
The OSR for me comprises two categories.
One is a tiny group of creative types grounded in a sound Gygaxian D&D aesthetic who know which authors are worthwhile reading in the fantasy literature.
The other is made of a large group of mutts who will eat anything going and who are very friendly and happy in themselves.
In my experience it takes about a year for the first group to absorb interesting material and ideas from each other and then they are back on their own again. However, this first group would never meet each other if it wasn't for the little communities created by the everpresent friendly mutts who love nothing better than hanging out and gabbing about D&D all day long. Im not referring to this forum.
So to answer the question, "How are we (the OSR) doing", I would say rather than Melan's 'Dead' that immersing oneself in the OSR has a sensible lifetime of about one year.
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Post by inkmeister on Jul 17, 2013 14:44:15 GMT -6
From my perspective, it's slowed down a lot. I don't see nearly as much excitement or analysis of things like megadungeons, hexcrawls, etc. Maybe it is sort of like Kent says; you get in there, learn a bunch of stuff, get ideas, and then move on (using what you've learned or not).
I think it has had a good impact on the D&D community overall, though. A lot of people seem to have an overall idea of what old-school ideas are about, and it has influenced a lot of products. People like Luke Crane, designer of Burning Wheel, have jumped on board, as well as a lot of indie gamers.
This board is virtually dead in my opinion, which sucks because it's always been one of my favorites. I think it should consolidate most of it's sections to encourage conversation in general. I feel largely the same about Dragonsfoot, which is another favorite.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 17, 2013 15:28:29 GMT -6
My main hangouts have been ODD74 (since 2007) and K&KA (since 2006). I mostly missed the blogs wave (I still don’t really get how they work), and now I guess there’s a Google Plus wave? But I guess I’m missing that, too, because I have no interest in joining a social media site that no-one in real life uses. That said, the level of activity at ODD74 and K&KA has always been, and still is, more than enough for me.
OSRIC and S&W seem as popular as ever. Gary Con and North Texas RPG Con seem to be growing. WotC has come crawling back to us with their reprints. So as far as I can tell we’re doing fine.
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 17, 2013 18:09:53 GMT -6
I think Zarathustra and coffee hit it on the head.
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Valandil
Level 2 Seer
Master Of Dungeons
Posts: 44
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Post by Valandil on Jul 17, 2013 18:18:27 GMT -6
Well, all this is kind of sad. I made a Google+ account a few months ago, and registered in the S&W and the X-plorers communities, but I haven't really looked at them. How is the Google+ thing compared to the now seemingly defunct blogosphere? Finarvyn, if I may ask, how is this board, traffic wise, these days? From my perspective, it's slowed down a lot. I don't see nearly as much excitement or analysis of things like megadungeons, hexcrawls, etc. Maybe it is sort of like Kent says; you get in there, learn a bunch of stuff, get ideas, and then move on (using what you've learned or not). This is the saddest part for me. Being a child of the 90's, I was kinda late to this OS thing (I guess I am what some would call a "grognardling", I discovered old school gaming thanks to you guys) and I kinda feel like I missed most of the basic discussions, which I find to be the most interesting (I used to, and still do, spend a lot of time checking really old blog entries, like from 2008 in the blogs), and it sucks. shirt, maybe I'm just feeling nostalgic for the OSR thing and just need to vent.
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Post by cadriel on Jul 17, 2013 18:47:43 GMT -6
The OSR blogosphere isn't dead, my blog has never been as active or as popular. We don't have a Grognardia and Jeff's not posting as much, but they were never more than a piece of the whole picture. The blogs have changed but there's still regular fresh blog content.
G+ is thriving, join the OSR group if nothing else. It's probably a better way to stay on top of the blogs and the other things going on than almost anything else.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 17, 2013 20:27:59 GMT -6
This board is virtually dead in my opinion I'm not sure what is meant by "virtually dead", but it says at the bottom of the page that there have been 971 unique visitors to this tiny board in the last 24 hours. I also notice now and then when I go to update my online game here that there are frequently quite a few people reading my game. Just now it says 17. A couple of weeks back I saw it was 20 something. I realise that's barely a drop in the ocean, but hey, this is a pretty obscure hobby we have, so I count it as encouraging.
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Post by dizzysaxophone on Jul 18, 2013 1:05:10 GMT -6
I would say it has been growing for the last few years. By no means can I say it has slowed. Lots of new products being constantly released. I only joined odd74 earlier this year, and it has constantly been becoming more and more active since I've been here. I'm the head mod at osrgaming, and I find that to be growing constantly as well. I read dragonsfoot, but I don't read nearly as much, so I'm not sure if that has been growing or not, but I would assume growing. G+ has exploded and there is always a ton of conversations there, and hell, if you don't have a face-to-face group, G+ hangouts is the next best thing.
Just my $0.02
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Post by Ynas Midgard on Jul 18, 2013 5:21:25 GMT -6
Everyone else is saying "thriving" or at least "obscure but alive"; I myself noticed a bit more rulebooks than needed but modules and even settings are being released, the blogs are active, G+ is active - obviously, you and the others in this thread are not referring to the same thing. Could you explain your opinion in a bit more detail?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 18, 2013 6:33:56 GMT -6
Someone is going to have to explain G+ to me, as I'm clearly out of the loop on this stuff.
I no longer track posts on the boards like I used to so I don't have hard data, but I know that we have a lot of activity in the online games section and in general there seems to be a decent amount of chatter in the discussion areas. We also have more "community" forum spaces than ever before, and this is the "home" of several OS RPGs like AS&SH and D@D.
Inkmeiser -- why would you consolidate boards?
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Post by coffee on Jul 18, 2013 6:49:38 GMT -6
Google + is sort of like a blog, in that you can post and people can comment. But where it really takes off for gamers is in the Hangouts.
If you have a webcam, you can hang out with friends of yours (by invitation). Google came up with this to let people far apart get together, but Zak came up with the idea of playing D&D over it. (That was that ConstantCon thing a while back.)
I have a game tonight, as a matter of fact, that I'm quite looking forward to. I'll get to hang out with four friends who were previously just faceless internet names.
I've also gotten to play a few sessions with people in the U.S., Britain, and Australia all at the same time.
(You might have guessed I'm kind of a fan.)
I don't really post much, ever. I'll read a few other people's posts. But the Hangouts are where it's at for me. Definitely worth the investment in a webcam and headset.
Edit: Oh, and like Google Search and Gmail, it's free.
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zeraser
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 184
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Post by zeraser on Jul 18, 2013 6:55:05 GMT -6
Can someone direct me to an explanation of "Jmal & Grognardia and the ensuing cluster****"? I heard he had to withdraw from blogging due to some very unfortunate family business, but that hardly seems to merit "cluster****".
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 18, 2013 6:57:17 GMT -6
Can someone direct me to an explanation of "Jmal & Grognardia and the ensuing cluster****"? I heard he had to withdraw from blogging due to some very unfortunate family business, but that hardly seems to merit "cluster****". I guess I missed that whole thing, too. All I can say is that when things blow up on the internet they seem to do so in a grand manner, so I assume that this happened to James. I miss Grognardia.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 7:18:32 GMT -6
Briefly, James had a big Kickstarter project that was nearing time for fulfillment when a death in the family occurred. He dropped off the grid and has only in contact with a few personal friends who assure us he is doing well. Another publisher had to take over the Kickstarter but the whole affair left a lot of fans unhappy.
On a personal note: I like James a lot and feel he was a great asset to the hobby. I miss him and hope he is well, when the time is right for him I hope he returns.
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Post by coffee on Jul 18, 2013 7:23:42 GMT -6
(Took too long to write this and Cameron got there ahead of me. Oh, well.)
Here's the short form of what happened with James: His father died. This hit him quite hard, and took all of his time to deal with. He dropped off the radar, without explanation (and can you blame him?). Somebody (I think it was Victor) contacted him and found out the situation, so he posted about what James was going through.
However, obligations like the Kickstarter publication of his mega-dungeon Dwimmermount fell by the wayside.
This ticked a lot of people off, and they started with calling him names and went on from there.
Now, I lost my father recently, and my mother a few years before. So I'm completely on James's side here.
Like we've always said in gaming groups I've been involved in: "Real Life Trumps."
Sadly, when commercial ventures (like Kickstarters) get involved, people are less understanding of such things. I can understand the disappointment of funding a thing and then not seeing it (apparently this isn't the first such incident in Kickstarter land), but you can be disappointed without being a awful to a person who is going through something.
Anyway, that's my understanding of the situation.
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Post by Melan on Jul 18, 2013 8:31:45 GMT -6
Everyone else is saying "thriving" or at least "obscure but alive"; I myself noticed a bit more rulebooks than needed but modules and even settings are being released, the blogs are active, G+ is active - obviously, you and the others in this thread are not referring to the same thing. Could you explain your opinion in a bit more detail? Okay. It's still around, I guess, but is it saying anything new someone should be listening to? Since you know the D&D community on LFG.HU, it's largely the same: it has run out of things worth saying. Things are still happening, and make no mistake, people are still playing and writing. Me, I'm writing a picaresque fantasy RPG that's 1/3 Dee-and-Dee, 1/3 Brothers Grimm and 1/3 Simplicissimus. But something is not there anymore. This is an inevitable cycle in creative communities. Maybe one day someone new will be along and they will have something new and exciting to say about old school gaming, just like how it all developed in the first place. But not now. edit: This forum software interprets 'ampersand' as 'post'. d**nit!
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Post by Vanquishing Leviathan on Jul 18, 2013 9:15:58 GMT -6
The OSR isn't dead or dying, it is merely changing, getting older, maturing. It used to be limited to forums, then forums and blogs, now forums and blogs and social media.
We now have non-OSR products being marketed as if they were OSR. Think about that.
Regarding the Grognardia fiasco, here is the part you are missing (all of this is to the best of my recollection).
There was some "misunderstanding" regarding the initial kickstarter itself. JMal was far behind even before the issue with his dad came up. When the stuff with JMal's dad came up, if JMal had merely announced on his blog that his dad was having real health problems and he was going through a lot of emotional turmoil, and he was going to refund the money, or suspend work for X time to see if he can get back in the saddle, then all would have been well. For whatever reason, this is not what JMal did.
Instead, JMal just dropped off the grid. What I am about to say, understand that I have lost one parent, and my other parent is in very poor health, so I assure you I understand the agonizing trauma of losing a parent, how it can be staggeringly debilitating. But where I come from, you don't just take $40,000 (or whatever the amount was), get way behind on a deadline, and then just stop talking to the people you are indebted to. You just don't do it.
When my dad died (it was both expected/unexpected, long story), I was employed (duties included a lot of creative writing). I got a week off to fly down for the funeral and spend a few days with my mom before flying back and going right back to work. I still had to go to work, I still had to write, I still had to change dirty diapers, I still had to walk the dog, etc. Neither the world nor my responsibilities stopped just because I was emotionally dead for a long time. This is why it grates on me when I see people making excuses for JMal. With all due sympathy for JMal's loss, he is an adult, and he was grossly irresponsible.
Combine JMal's mishandling of the situation with the irrational hatred that many people already had for JMal (I suspect much of that stems from jealousy), and this is how the excessive drama came about.
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 9:33:37 GMT -6
I'm writing a picaresque fantasy RPG that's 1/3 Dee-and-Dee, 1/3 Brothers Grimm and 1/3 Simplicissimus. Why do you feel the need to integrate an rpg into a setting, your interpretation of Grimm, rather than write a setting independent of game rules?
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Post by Ynas Midgard on Jul 18, 2013 9:33:39 GMT -6
Maybe one day someone new will be along and they will have something new and exciting to say about old school gaming, just like how it all developed in the first place. But not now. Ah, I get what you mean.
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Post by zarathustra on Jul 18, 2013 9:41:51 GMT -6
The OSR isn't dead or dying, it is merely changing, getting older, maturing. It used to be limited to forums, then forums and blogs, now forums and blogs and social media.
We now have non-OSR products being marketed as if they were OSR. Think about that.
Regarding the Grognardia fiasco, here is the part you are missing (all of this is to the best of my recollection).
There was some "misunderstanding" regarding the initial kickstarter itself. JMal was far behind even before the issue with his dad came up. When the stuff with JMal's dad came up, if JMal had merely announced on his blog that his dad was having real health problems and he was going through a lot of emotional turmoil, and he was going to refund the money, or suspend work for X time to see if he can get back in the saddle, then all would have been well. For whatever reason, this is not what JMal did.
Instead, JMal just dropped off the grid. What I am about to say, understand that I have lost one parent, and my other parent is in very poor health, so I assure you I understand the agonizing trauma of losing a parent, how it can be staggeringly debilitating. But where I come from, you don't just take $40,000 (or whatever the amount was), get way behind on a deadline, and then just stop talking to the people you are indebted to. You just don't do it.
When my dad died (it was both expected/unexpected, long story), I was employed (duties included a lot of creative writing). I got a week off to fly down for the funeral and spend a few days with my mom before flying back and going right back to work. I still had to go to work, I still had to write, I still had to change dirty diapers, I still had to walk the dog, etc. Neither the world nor my responsibilities stopped just because I was emotionally dead for a long time. This is why it grates on me when I see people making excuses for JMal. With all due sympathy for JMal's loss, he is an adult, and he was grossly irresponsible.
Combine JMal's mishandling of the situation with the irrational hatred that many people already had for JMal (I suspect much of that stems from jealousy), and this is how the excessive drama came about.
I'd say the above is a fair summary. Some people were peeved that a megadungeon they had been sold as almost finished and played in for years turned out not to be so finished at all (or nowhere near completed enough to publish). That added fuel to the fire. Suffice to say it is over a year behind schedule and at one point there was talk of legal options.
I think the OSR is going fine, I live in a small city by world standards, don't look too hard for new players and my group has no trouble finding players. I think the 4e/Next thing has opened new players minds to being open to trying older editions too (in that there has been a lot of discussion about NExt catering or not to older playing styles which generated curiosity about them).
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