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Post by geoffrey on Jul 18, 2013 11:22:04 GMT -6
But something is not there anymore. I would say that some one (actually, plural) is not there anymore. Gary's death put a never-to-be-filled void amongst us. He wasn't merely a creator of D&D, but an active participant on various boards. Bob Bledsaw's death ended his participation on the Necromancer boards, where he talked about the Wilderlands (not to mention the Wilderlands going out of print). Also, insightful people such as Merth and Melan (yes, Melan, you are at fault!  ) do not post as much at dragonsfoot, etc. We are missing several creative voices on the boards, and that (IMO) is the something that is not there anymore. I wish the Troll Lords would get permission to publish a no-holds-barred C&C conversion of the Necromancer Wilderlands boxed set, with full-color Erol Otus illustrations. I think that would inject a welcome note of swords & sorcery enthusiasm into the OSR. I regret the internet drama that dilutes the OSR. Think about the waste of energy over the years put into anti-C&C diatribes, anti-OSRIC diatribes, anti-Carcosa hysteria, anti-Zak nonsense, fury at LotFP's rated R products, anti-retro-clone anger, and all the rest. I mention this only in passing since I take my own advice of putting one's energies into creative endeavours rather than into anger. In spite of all of the above, I think the OSR is doing fine, but could do better.  |
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 11:43:27 GMT -6
I regret the internet drama that dilutes the OSR. Think about the waste of energy over the years put into anti-C&C diatribes, anti-OSRIC diatribes, anti-Carcosa hysteria, anti-Zak nonsense, fury at LotFP's rated R products, anti-retro-clone anger, and all the rest. The majority of this mockery is directed both at people who vastly over-rate their creativity whether they are egotists or deluded, and at noisy cheerleaders who celebrate anything so long as it is bland and recycled. In spite of all of the above, I think the OSR is doing fine, but could do better. Personally, I think inane comments like that are less likely to improve things than declarations of contempt but each to his own. |
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Post by Melan on Jul 18, 2013 13:20:32 GMT -6
I'm writing a picaresque fantasy RPG that's 1/3 Dee-and-Dee, 1/3 Brothers Grimm and 1/3 Simplicissimus. Why do you feel the need to integrate an rpg into a setting, your interpretation of Grimm, rather than write a setting independent of game rules? Because it makes sense to me, and also, because I and my friends enjoy it. |
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 13:44:20 GMT -6
Because it makes sense to me, and also, because I and my friends enjoy it. That doesn't help me much. Im curious because Im tempted to design rules for my own setting from ground level rather than continue whimsically and ruthlessly houseruling AD&D. Without having tried it I imagine it would occupy 50% of game thinking and it seems like it may involve reinventing the wheel. Your Fomalhaut campaign on DF feels like houseruled AD&D. Can you describe how your own rpg mechanics feel different enough to houseruled D&D to make it worth diverting effort that could go on developing setting? |
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Post by Melan on Jul 18, 2013 14:16:59 GMT -6
This is really not the thread for it, but... with our Fomalhaut campaign, we decided on the system first and the basic style of the campaign second. That set the boundaries from the start. Helvéczia, our current campaign, developed differently, emerging very slowly from a message board post without any immediate need to run it. It is still adventure fantasy with roots in DnD, but the classes have been extensively modified, the magic system has more severe restrictions and is more strategically focused (with less imediate effects), the alignment system is dynamic with a basis in the seven sins and virtues, and of course the monsters and magic items are also different. It is a game with a similar logic but everything in it has been modified to fit its purpose. It also does away with some common DnDisms such as strong niche protection or a steep zero-to-hero power curve (advancement is capped at 6th level). And it also assimilates new ideas developed in the old school community: this ranges from the E6 level concept to a variant of The Table of Despair.
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 17:27:13 GMT -6
ok, Im not any clearer on where you draw the line between heavy houseruling and designing a new game but it would be a waste discussing that here.
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Post by strangebrew on Jul 18, 2013 17:52:53 GMT -6
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 18:19:32 GMT -6
I never noticed you before "strangebrew" but having glanced over your recent posts I can see you are a very enthusiastic fellow, are you on drugs? You haven't yet said 'Golly!' or 'Gee whiz!' so I recommend them for you predicting you will get good use from them. |
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Post by strangebrew on Jul 18, 2013 19:04:02 GMT -6
Gosh, "kent", don't be sore at me! I bet you're a real swell guy!
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 18, 2013 19:47:01 GMT -6
I think Kent, or Travis, or Bloom, or Captain Dipstick or whatever he is calling himself this year takes either the Dungeons & Dragons game too seriously, or takes himself too seriously. Or both.
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Post by kent on Jul 18, 2013 22:01:32 GMT -6
Oh, look who's piping up now that his zine has made him a bigshot. lol
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 18, 2013 22:16:10 GMT -6
Oh, look who's piping up now that his zine has made him a bigshot. lol Oh c'mon Paul. I would expect a more fiery comeback than that. To get back on point, the OSR is doing Ok. People are still playing the old versions of the game and enjoying themselves (myself included). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2013 2:10:16 GMT -6
C'mon Marv, how about putting a stop to Kent spoiling yet another thread with his pointless name-calling and insults. It's tiring and probably one of the main reasons why people aren't as active on this board as they used to be.
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Post by coffee on Jul 19, 2013 7:37:25 GMT -6
C'mon Marv, how about putting a stop to Kent spoiling yet another thread with his pointless name-calling and insults. It's tiring and probably one of the main reasons why people aren't as active on this board as they used to be. Seconded. I come here for the civil discourse, not the name calling. |
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Post by inkmeister on Jul 19, 2013 7:53:46 GMT -6
I like Kent and his blog. I think he is a good roleplayer that likes to roleplay on the forums. I like to picture him as Frasier Krane from Cheers/Frasier.
As to the OSR, I'd LOVE to be wrong, and I'm happy that a number of people disagree with me about it declining. My own stance is not based on any study, just personal impression.
As to these boards, my comment about consolidating is based on my perception that conversation has declined (maybe it hasn't, maybe it's just accumulated slowly over a number of years and now that I'm participating actively it just seems slow). It's also personal preference; I visit this forum daily and I still am surprised at sections that I didn't realize existed before. A lot of it seems pointlessly redundant; why is there an "OD&D study" forum in addition to "Men and Magic," "Monsters and Treasure," and "Underworld and Wilderness ADventures?" I would much rather have all those sections under one general "OD&D" section, with a new system of tagging individual posts with "U&WA" or "M&M" if necessary. I think you could have one other section for non OD&D RPG's, where people can discuss non OD&D D&D editions, Gamma World, whatever. I don't think the level of specialization we have here is needed considering how small it is. Simplicity is good.
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Post by kent on Jul 19, 2013 11:11:52 GMT -6
I like to picture him as Frasier Krane from Cheers/Frasier. My Travis Bickle has gone a bit pear shaped with age then. |
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 19, 2013 11:26:10 GMT -6
I like to picture him as Frasier Krane from Cheers/Frasier. My Travis Bickle has gone a bit pear shaped with age then. I have no idea what Kent looks like physically, but I see him more as the Kanye West of old school D and D message boards |
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Post by jeffb on Jul 19, 2013 12:10:23 GMT -6
I know for myself..my OSR gaming has picked up big time. Over the past 2 years have been playing mostly S&W/OD&D mashups with some forays into 3E/4E, C&C and a couple NEXT playtest sessions... but right now doing White Box. As for the OSR, how I follow it and participation....., that is pretty much dead. I lurk here most days...and am fairly active on EnWorld. I do not understand or like Google+. Layout confuses the hell out of me, so I avoid it despite the fact that I belong to several of the OD&D/OSR type communities. I prefer message board systems, but they are mostly dead. I do not read much in the way of Blogs ( I miss Grognardia & Beyond the Black Gate for sure..those I read daily), and as far as products, there is practically no interest either. I would like the revised hardcover of S&W complete and a hardcover of DD, and that is about it. I have grown really tired of all the "my houseruled retro D&D variant" rule sets people are pumping out. That seems to be where the bulk of effort & talk is, and I do not have any need or use for, though I am sure many have merit. I am "system'ed out". I am no longer seeing any adventures/modules/idea books that float my boat and have been delving into actual old product, instead of spending money on OSR products. I also do a fair amount of converting newer products from Paizo and the like. IOW Old school gaming? YAY! OSR? yawn....I'm sorry, what?  |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 19, 2013 14:48:16 GMT -6
ok, Im not any clearer on where you draw the line between heavy houseruling and designing a new game but it would be a waste discussing that here. I think that a "new game" ought to have some sort of new and different mechanic, differnent attributes, or some such changes that make it different from the original. I think that LL, DD, S&W, B/X, AD&D, OD&D, etc, are in my mind not a "new game" at all but merely a variant of the base OD&D rules system. Just taking an existing rules set and tweaking or house ruling it doesn't make it a new game, which is why I can take a C&C module and run it using OD&D with just a few "on the fly" adjustments. Runequest and other BRP-based games are skill-based instead of level based. That certainly makes it a different game from D&D. Traveller was based on 2d6 instead of d20, which helps make it a game different from D&D. When I see a shelf full of d20 variants (d20 future, d20 CoC, d20 Thieves World, etc) I don't see those as being a different game but instead a different setting. When Melan said he was blending D&D with Brothers Grimm and Simplicissimus, I read that to say that he has some sort of D&D variant in mind (some tweaks in the rules somewhere) that he is mixing with a setting of his own creation. Doesn't sound like a "new RPG" per se, but if could be a different experience. That's not a knock on Melan's creativity or his setting, but a reflection of the fact that he's starting with an established rules set and building onto it to customize it so it fits the setting he has in mind. Anyway, that's how I read it. |
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on Jul 19, 2013 16:18:01 GMT -6
Google + is sort of like a blog, in that you can post and people can comment. But where it really takes off for gamers is in the Hangouts. If you have a webcam, you can hang out with friends of yours (by invitation). Google came up with this to let people far apart get together, but Zak came up with the idea of playing D&D over it. (That was that ConstantCon thing a while back.) I have a game tonight, as a matter of fact, that I'm quite looking forward to. I'll get to hang out with four friends who were previously just faceless internet names. I've also gotten to play a few sessions with people in the U.S., Britain, and Australia all at the same time. (You might have guessed I'm kind of a fan.) I don't really post much, ever. I'll read a few other people's posts. But the Hangouts are where it's at for me. Definitely worth the investment in a webcam and headset. Edit: Oh, and like Google Search and Gmail, it's free. I have been dragged into G+ kicking and screaming. I have used teamspeak, Skype, and VASSAL for years to get my geographically dispersed group together to game since oh about 2006. But, hangouts are admittedly easy to get going and free. It's the single best service offering from google hands down. Their mail and other services are half-assed, but hey, they are "free" (as long as you don't care about privacy). What I can't stand is the unintuitive G+ site and all the warts it carries. shirt, how do you private message someone? It took me a while to just figure out something that simple and I work on these infernal machines all day every day. It has served as a decent way to check out the blogs (a phenomenon I just never really latched onto) and to stay in the loop with some of the more obscure OSR thinkers. But, it really must be the hangouts bringing folks out of their caves and into the social networking blob. *shrug* The OSR is new to me over the past couple years. I had been on about a 5 year RPG hiatus and focusing on war/board games and minis. Then one night playing in the Oakland Blood Bowl league I saw a hard copy of Dark Dungeons at Endgame and picked it up and I have been interested in the resurgence since. DD wasn't the game for me as that particular version wasn't my favorite the first time around and shortly after DCC RPG was released and that has been my game of choice since. Is the OSR the same as it was a few years back? Probably not, but what hobby is with the changes in technology and social etiquette? What I would like to see is more of the fanzines like Crawl! and Fight On, they are the genuine lifeblood of our niche hobby IMO- creative minds sharing ideas and house rulings. It doesn't get much better and the format is as venerable and timeless as the lil OD&D booklets...in print. |
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skars
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Post by skars on Jul 19, 2013 16:34:58 GMT -6
As for the question of what makes a different RPG vs a different setting, I think Marv hit it on the head. But, I would add that what really makes an rpg different from the others are its event resolution mechanisms. That is the meat of the game and generally the answer to, "How do I play?" Roll a d20 against a target, roll percentile under your skill, roll a bucket of d6's and count up the successes, roll funky custom FFG dice instead of the usual fudge dice *blech*...you get the gist.
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18 Spears
BANNED
Yeah ... Spear This Ya' Freak!
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Post by 18 Spears on Jul 19, 2013 16:41:10 GMT -6
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skars
Level 6 Magician
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Post by skars on Jul 19, 2013 16:57:15 GMT -6
Haha, should have been done in the format of a nethack top ten scores. "skars the 1st level tourist - killed by a newt while fainting from lack of food" |
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Post by kent on Jul 19, 2013 19:19:43 GMT -6
Runequest and other BRP-based games are skill-based instead of level based. That certainly makes it a different game from D&D. Traveller was based on 2d6 instead of d20, which helps make it a game different from D&D. When I see a shelf full of d20 variants (d20 future, d20 CoC, d20 Thieves World, etc) I don't see those as being a different game but instead a different setting. Sure but I use skills for new classes, and have generalised skills and language skill percentages and a different magic system but I see myself as playing AD&D. Why? First, because what the characters do (not the mechanics they must use to do those things) is the same as if I was running AD&D by the book. Second because my game has evolved from AD&D and those are still the books I like to read. OD&D too. When Melan said he was blending D&D with Brothers Grimm and Simplicissimus, I read that to say that he has some sort of D&D variant in mind (some tweaks in the rules somewhere) that he is mixing with a setting of his own creation. Doesn't sound like a "new RPG" per se, but if could be a different experience. That's not a knock on Melan's creativity or his setting, but a reflection of the fact that he's starting with an established rules set and building onto it to customize it so it fits the setting he has in mind. I asked Melan the question because from my point of view Im wondering what difference it makes if you go the extra mile and divorce yourself from D&D. Melan did this with his Hungarian rpg but, there being no English translation, from the outside it feels closer to D&D than Carcosa. If he says its not D&D we have to believe him. I think if you start with Grimm instead of Tolkien & Howard you should get a different rpg but I wonder what the essential difference in feel a Grimm World based on OD&D would have to a new rpg because I always think of setting, atmosphere, characters, adventures and maps to be more important for that sort of thing. |
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Post by Ynas Midgard on Jul 20, 2013 4:57:26 GMT -6
As for the question of what makes a different RPG vs a different setting, I think Marv hit it on the head. But, I would add that what really makes an rpg different from the others are its event resolution mechanisms. That is the meat of the game and generally the answer to, "How do I play?" Roll a d20 against a target, roll percentile under your skill, roll a bucket of d6's and count up the successes, roll funky custom FFG dice instead of the usual fudge dice *blech*...you get the gist. I would say it is rather what and how the resolution mechanics affect is the meat of an RPG.
[*]D&D-esque games have a task-based mechanic: they tell you whether you succeed at a given task or not; on the other hand
[*]My Life With Master has a scene-resolution mechanic, it is completely irrelevant that is uses d4s instead of a d20, the important thing is that it tells you the outcome of an entire scene
[*]Torchbearer has two types of very different mechanics, depending on whether you are trying to overcome a passive obstacle (like climbing a cliff) or an active one (like convincing some orcs to let your party pass without paying); the former one tells you if you succeeded completely (e.g. you kicked a door open), succeeded with a compromise (e.g. you got exhausted from forcing the door open), or failed and triggered a twist (e.g. you didn't manage to force the door open and some of the guards showed up to investigate the noise you made)
[*]tests in Monsterhearts may not only result in physical consequences but emotional ones, too, like being aroused by looking at someone (as it is a teenage-monster-sex-and-violence-drama game, it is quite important)
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Post by Melan on Jul 21, 2013 15:41:39 GMT -6
My criterion for DnDness is compatibility: if I can use a game to run modules like Keep on the Borderlands on the fly without a problem, the game is DnD to me. Some people are much less strict (and can run Keep on the Borderlands with GURPS, Ars Magica and Nicotine Girls), others think anything but 1977-1983 Gygax is heretical. These are my standards.
In my case, the deeper structures of the games are reasonably similar, but the game built on top of them are often significantly different. To offer a comparison, Italian, French and Spanish are all Neo-Latin languages, and the shared vocabulary/grammar makes them mutually intelligible to some extent, but they are still distinct languages, not just different dialects.
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Post by kent on Jul 21, 2013 16:00:10 GMT -6
My criterion for DnDness is compatibility: if I can use a game to run modules like Keep on the Borderlands on the fly without a problem, the game is DnD to me. Would you have been able to run Keep on the Borderlands with the rpg you used for the Fomalhaut campaign which Premier wrote up on DF, which is the limit of what I know about your game play? |
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Post by Melan on Jul 22, 2013 1:39:52 GMT -6
Of course. I have.
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Post by kent on Jul 22, 2013 3:33:41 GMT -6
Using your definition I would say some new rules do not make a new rpg if you can run KotB on the fly with them. A new rpg for some is a set of houserules to D&D for others.
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Post by talysman on Jul 22, 2013 13:17:20 GMT -6
That's nonsense. I can run KotB on the fly using octaNe and a few name changes. And that definitely isn't D&D.
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) do not post as much at dragonsfoot, etc. We are missing several creative voices on the boards, and that (IMO) is the something that is not there anymore.
