How much Investment do you have in today's OSR scene?

[jeffb]

waysoftheearth

Posed an interesting polling question in the member demographics thread re: "investment" in the OSR.

Vote and opine if you care to about where you stand with the 'OSR Scene" in recent times/today.

[jeffb]

Personally- I've got more out of James M casting Raise Dead on Grognardia than I have from the OSR in the last 5-6 years.

[yesmar]

When I hear OSR I think B/X, and that’s just not interesting to me.

[Deleted]

I hope I'm not being toxic talking about this.

The so called "OSR" movement was certainly influential for me to remember when I first played OD&D as a kid.
It was some race as class edition, I don't know which one.

I've bought a good amount of OSR books some years ago, including that loved Old School Essentials one, which was expensive IMO and terrible. Definitely not Essential to me, I never opened it again after reading it once, and I regret the money. From those books the only ones I've liked was S&W and "Astonishment etc" (the long named one).

I don't like a couple of things in the "OSR movement". As yesmar said, it is mostly B/X, which I like the race as class aspect but I don't like all the rest of it, specially the high modifiers. Then, the so called movement is very gatekeeping/toxic in my experience, and nowadays if you don't play or like the so called OSE or some other trend you can't be really one of them, at least until their next trend to show up.

What I understand about all of this is that people really have this need or desired to be part of a group or to have a label upon them. You can't just play RPG, you must be "OSR", "FKR" or something, if you're not part of a group you're not cool.

I'm not a cool kid, I don't want groups or labels. And I don't want to be part of a group.
OD&D (including Chainmail) and Traveller are good games for me, I don't really feel a need for anything else, specially considering that I'm managing to keep my players interested in playing something so simple.

[greentongue]

I like things like "Labyrinth Lord", "Beyond the Wall" and "Through Sunken Lands" but don't care what they are classified as.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2021 11:33:28 GMT -6 greentongue said:

I like things like "Labyrinth Lord", "Beyond the Wall" and "Through Sunken Lands" but don't care what they are classified as.

Labyrinth Lord is a very nice and badass name, and it's a good book as well. I'm not familiar with others, are they adventures?

[greentongue]

Jun 18, 2021 11:50:07 GMT -6 @jacksonbenete said:

Jun 18, 2021 11:33:28 GMT -6 greentongue said:

I like things like "Labyrinth Lord", "Beyond the Wall" and "Through Sunken Lands" but don't care what they are classified as.

Labyrinth Lord is a very nice and badass name, and it's a good book as well. I'm not familiar with others, are they adventures?

They are systems using D20 that include a character creation process that ties the players together and that gives some agency with creating the setting details.
The players establish rumored locations that the DM can then use to build from, knowing the players interests.

A nice method to get the party moving in the same general direction and why they would do so.

[geoffrey]

Jun 18, 2021 12:55:19 GMT -6 plethon said:

...one of the most contradictory and misguided editions from the old school era (B/X)...

I'd be interested in your thoughts as to how B/X is contradictory and misguided.

[Deleted]

No real investment in the OSR, not interested in buying anything right now. That said, of the clones I have looked at Delving Deeper seems to be the truest to what I like. So I would not object to a hard copy for Christmas or a birthday. I don't know if that is an option or not. I have looked at a couple of other clones that I really did not like at all (no I am not going to name them).

[tetramorph]

I'm not really sure how to answer this survey.

OSR has come to mean a lot of things, and it seems to have meant something different, say, 10 or 15 years ago than it does today.

If by OSR we mean: emphasis on DIY, emphasis on older styles of play over newer styles of play, emphasis on older, pre-SRD rule sets and an emphasis on older fantasy (S&S) settings over newer (more heroic) ones, then, yes, I am all about the OSR!

But, if by OSR we mean the way in which this moniker has been used to sell story gaming aids wrapped in "rules lite" packaging, then, in that case, silly rabbit, OSR is for kids.

So, jeffb, what do you think would best represent my POV in the poll you provided?

[Deleted]

I consider myself somewhat aligned with it, or what first drew me to it via Swords & Wizardry: Whitebox. I suppose it depends on how you define "Old School" and what you believe "Renaissance" entails in this context. To me it does feel like a Renaissance of sorts, because I'm part of a new(er) generation peering back to Antiquity for inspiration and ideas. When I was a kid growing up in rural Tennessee, I never knew there was a such thing as "OD&D". In hindsight, I'm pretty sure nobody really called it that until relatively recently. I just knew I played a game of make believe called D&D with friends and siblings, and that when I re-discovered it later, it had become something more complex and codified than what I remembered. I remember giving up on it for a few more years and then yearning for an experience closer to what I felt as a kid, and I remember winding up somewhere on a blog or a forum where someone mentioned the OSR, which eventually led me here after a few more years.

For my part, I personally adhere to the stricter mindset that OSR ought to refer to old-school D&D and its clones, the idea being that D&D was the first published RPG, and it inspired all the generations after, but most importantly - of all the early rules sets that are still active brands, it's changed the most. You don't have as strong a case to make for, say, a Traveller or Call of Cthulhu renaissance, do you? Those games have certainly grown and evolved but they retain most of their core elements. D&D as the youngest generation of players understand it has an identity that's become divorced or diluted from the original game. This I believe there is a very strong argument to be made for. Show me the step-by-step procedure for dungeon crawling in the 5e core books. I'll wait. (You can save your time, trust me.) So, my argument is - something's fundamentally changed or shifted. Not necessarily to make a judgment, but it just has, and I happen to like what I've learned by studying the old ways. I prefer it, and there's still a place for it, so to that extent I do consider myself an OSR participant.

[DungeonDevil]

None. I wasn't aware that it was still a thing in A.D. 2021.

EDIT (6/20/21):
If I had to categorise myself (something which many of us are reluctant -- or even loathe -- to do), I'd say I am CHAINMAIL SCHOOL (CMS), going all the way back to the minute, densely-packed Singularity of the hobby and its representative text, peeling back all the layers to look frankly and plainly upon the ultimate Core, fully appreciating and embracing its wargaming roots without reservation, and building upon that, as if OD&D (1974) had not yet come into being.

That, plus the charming book The View over Atlantis, and the earlier ruminations of Alfred Watkins, were the inspirations for Meadows & Megaliths.

[plethon]

Jun 18, 2021 13:45:38 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jun 18, 2021 12:55:19 GMT -6 plethon said:

...one of the most contradictory and misguided editions from the old school era (B/X)...

I'd be interested in your thoughts as to how B/X is contradictory and misguided.

I think I came off way harsher than I intended to, it's really just my own personal tastes. Things like who is allowed to look for traps, how multiple attacks per round are supposed to work, the combat sequence in general seems like it is trying to straddle both the abstract Chainmail style and the individual attack per roll style; I also don't like how they removed Fighting Capability from the class tables completely.

I love Mystara thought and I am currently running a BECMI game weekly so I don't mean to sound like I hate Basic d&d. But I'm noticing a lot of aspects of it that I don't really enjoy personally, but my players are having fun which is what matters.

[geoffrey]

I see where you're coming from. I wish there was a D&D set that I thought perfect, but there's not. What I personally regard as "true" D&D consists of those versions of which Gary gave his approval:

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

The space defined by those six is D&D for me. (Clones that reside in that space I also count as real D&D.)

[Finarvyn]

So far I'm the only one to have picked "I'm all about the OSR" so I guess I should comment.

As for myself, I feel like I never really left OD&D so a "return" is misleading. To me, the OSR is all about the old school style of play that I experienced in the 70's. While I don't spend much money on OSR products, that style of play is critical to my gaming enjoyment. I run my 5E games a lot like I ran OD&D back in the day. I teach a "rules but still freeform" style to my gaming group. I think that a return to that play style is very important.

I know that the OSR means different things to different folks, as we all got started in different places. I see AD&D and B/X as "new school" compared to OD&D, but those rules are clearly "old school" when compared to 3E-4E era gaming. OSRIC and S&W and C&C and WotRP are clearly modern games, but they are still "old school" and their intent is to cause a return to earlier editions. Those products are important to me and exposing gamers to those kinds of rules sets is nearly as high a goal to me as the main goal of OD&D discussion.

So I didn't choose "no real investment" because to me this board is a high investment in the OSR. Just not a financial one.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2021 16:10:07 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I see where you're coming from. I wish there was a D&D set that I thought perfect, but there's not. What I personally regard as "true" D&D consists of those versions of which Gary gave his approval:

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

The space defined by those six is D&D for me. (Clones that reside in that space I also count as real D&D.)

What is C&C? Google only brings up Command & Conquer and I am sure that is not what you are referencing.

[jeffb]

Jun 18, 2021 14:37:14 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

I'm not really sure how to answer this survey.

OSR has come to mean a lot of things, and it seems to have meant something different, say, 10 or 15 years ago than it does today.

If by OSR we mean: emphasis on DIY, emphasis on older styles of play over newer styles of play, emphasis on older, pre-SRD rule sets and an emphasis on older fantasy (S&S) settings over newer (more heroic) ones, then, yes, I am all about the OSR!

But, if by OSR we mean the way in which this moniker has been used to sell story gaming aids wrapped in "rules lite" packaging, then, in that case, silly rabbit, OSR is for kids.

So, jeffb, what do you think would best represent my POV in the poll you provided?

I'm speaking of the recent/current OSR. Not 10 or 15 years ago.

As for your question- I can't help you there.


As an example, I can tell you I was very invested in the OSR in the early days. These days, I'm not at all. I don't buy new product or rulesets. I don't support OSR type KS projects (I did just back a DCC RPG adventure, but I don't consider DCC RPG as OSR) Other than Grognardia, I'm not following anyone who still happens to BLOG, I don't listen to Podcasts or watch/sub much in the way of Youtoobz videos that focus on OSR games or product (e.g. Questing Beast, or Tenkar). I don't watch any liveplays for C&C or S&W or whatever. I watch Prof DM on yootoob, but he is not what I would consider an OSR channel, though he sometimes has OSR content.

In recent years, I also mainly use my old books, and not clones- the exception being Fin's Whitebox.

I do watch/listen when a video or podcast is speaking directly to original products, or interviewing old TSR authors, etc like last week's interview with Jim Ward and RPG Pundit. I

I'm not talking about picking a specific niche of the OSR and which parts you like or dislike. I'm asking about the high level view- You are either involved in some way (whether great, small or in between) or not at all.

[jeffb]

Jun 18, 2021 19:15:08 GMT -6 @sonofbear said:

Jun 18, 2021 16:10:07 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

I see where you're coming from. I wish there was a D&D set that I thought perfect, but there's not. What I personally regard as "true" D&D consists of those versions of which Gary gave his approval:

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

The space defined by those six is D&D for me. (Clones that reside in that space I also count as real D&D.)

What is C&C? Google only brings up Command & Conquer and I am sure that is not what you are referencing.

Castles & Crusades by Troll Lord Games.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2021 19:22:47 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Jun 18, 2021 19:15:08 GMT -6 @sonofbear said:

What is C&C? Google only brings up Command & Conquer and I am sure that is not what you are referencing.

Castles & Crusades by Troll Lord Games.

Thank you jeffb , never heard of it, I will have to look it up. 

geoffrey of this list'

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

Which one is C&C the closest to?

[geoffrey]

Jun 18, 2021 19:32:34 GMT -6 @sonofbear said:

Jun 18, 2021 19:22:47 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Castles & Crusades by Troll Lord Games.

Thank you jeffb , never heard of it, I will have to look it up. 

geoffrey of this list'

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

Which one is C&C the closest to?

I would say AD&D (1st edition).

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2021 19:43:35 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Jun 18, 2021 19:32:34 GMT -6 @sonofbear said:

Thank you jeffb , never heard of it, I will have to look it up. 

geoffrey of this list'

OD&D
Holmes
AD&D (1st edition)
B/X
BECMI
C&C

Which one is C&C the closest to?

I would say AD&D (1st edition).

Thank you!

[waysoftheearth]

LOL! thanks jeffb

I voted "No real investment".

I'm aware that there is a nebulous concept out there referred to as "OSR". Occasionally, we see topics on these boards where folks opine about what OSR means to them, which are kinda interesting to read about.

There probably should be some kind of loose connection between "OSR" and my personal interest in trying out wacky, literal interpretations of dusty old rules that nobody believes in anymore in my own ridiculous games. But it's hard to identify specifically what that connection is. My sense is that because old school gamers are necessarily creative with their gaming framework every ref's game differs enough that it's tricky to wrap a single, satisfactory definition/codification around how we old school gamers actually play.

The larger trend is probably that OSR has become a marketing label for a few clever publishers who are (generally speaking) selling "product" moreso than genuinely reviving old school rules. I'm not negative about that; I simply have no investment in it.

[bobjester0e]

Jun 19, 2021 2:56:16 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

LOL! thanks jeffb

I voted "No real investment".

I'm aware that there is a nebulous concept out there referred to as "OSR". Occasionally, we see topics on these boards where folks opine about what OSR means to them, which are kinda interesting to read about.

There probably should be some kind of loose connection between "OSR" and my personal interest in trying out wacky, literal interpretations of dusty old rules that nobody believes in anymore in my own ridiculous games. But it's hard to identify specifically what that connection is. My sense is that because old school gamers are necessarily creative with their gaming framework every ref's game differs enough that it's tricky to wrap a single, satisfactory definition/codification around how we old school gamers actually play.

The larger trend is probably that OSR has become a marketing label for a few clever publishers who are (generally speaking) selling "product" moreso than genuinely reviving old school rules. I'm not negative about that; I simply have no investment in it.

This is about as close as I got to the OSR, then I backed away slowly and carefully. 

If I didn't play D&D because there was no OSR to draw my interest to it, then I'd have voted differently.
But I've never stopped playing, doodling, fiddling, or writing my own D&D stuff since 1980.
Its nice that others have found a way to make money and form 3pps and such, but that was never an option for me, so I don't fit into anything the OSR did, or does currently, even though I like some of what they sell.

I am completely comfortable creating my own campaign specific stuff most of the time, but I like picking up the occasional product to fill a creative void.
It doesn't have to be from any particular system, but it does have to pique my interest. 

I am really not interested in buying anyone's clone, or heartbreaker version since I have my own. lol

[dicebro]

Kind of a vague survey. Please define investment. Number of hours played per week? Number of dollars spent? Number of hours creating OSR products? How do you define OSR? What do you mean by OSR scene? What does “a fair amount” mean? “A bit?” Thanks.

[jeffb]

Jun 19, 2021 8:21:15 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Kind of a vague survey. Please define investment. Number of hours played per week? Number of dollars spent? Number of hours creating OSR products? How do you define OSR? What do you mean by OSR scene? What does “a fair amount” mean? “A bit?” Thanks.

Sorry, I'm not doing the WOTC 3.5 version of the poll where all options are strictly codified and clarified

Check out my answer to tetramorph and see if that helps by giving an idea of "non investment". If it doesn't then no worries or need to vote. It was just a quick poll based on some comments in the other thread, and not really important in the grand scheme of things.

[tetramorph]

Jun 18, 2021 19:18:57 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I'm speaking of the recent/current OSR. Not 10 or 15 years ago.

As for your question- I can't help you there.

As an example, I can tell you I was very invested in the OSR in the early days. These days, I'm not at all. I don't buy new product or rulesets. I don't support OSR type KS projects (I did just back a DCC RPG adventure, but I don't consider DCC RPG as OSR) Other than Grognardia, I'm not following anyone who still happens to BLOG, I don't listen to Podcasts or watch/sub much in the way of Youtoobz videos that focus on OSR games or product (e.g. Questing Beast, or Tenkar). I don't watch any liveplays for C&C or S&W or whatever. I watch Prof DM on yootoob, but he is not what I would consider an OSR channel, though he sometimes has OSR content.

In recent years, I also mainly use my old books, and not clones- the exception being Fin's Whitebox.

I do watch/listen when a video or podcast is speaking directly to original products, or interviewing old TSR authors, etc like last week's interview with Jim Ward and RPG Pundit. I

I'm not talking about picking a specific niche of the OSR and which parts you like or dislike. I'm asking about the high level view- You are either involved in some way (whether great, small or in between) or not at all.

Okay, thanks for telling me this is contemporary.

I have backed a Kickstarter for a module by Chainsaw. I continue to buy products that are compatible with Gygax era rules (and their clones). Is that support for or investment in the OSR?

I only really run at my table my own house-ruled variant of the original rules.

I do follow blogs -- especially of folks on these boards and at the K&KA.

I don't watch much youtube about my hobby, as I usually find videos of people talking about D&D pretty boring.

Let me ask it this way: if you voted your own poll, how did you vote? Based upon your example, that may help me to discern how I might best vote.

[cadriel]

I'm in a few OSR Facebook groups but compared to how things were in the Google+ days - I am just not invested in today's OSR. It's a great way to put the question. Five years ago I was keeping abreast of all of the ideas in the scene, running games online, and having a good old time. Now it feels stranger and more distant. I still love OD&D and older D&D generally, but I don't think OSR materials contribute much to that any more. Old School Essentials Advanced Fantasy was the most recent OSR Kickstarter I backed, and I got the books and they've just sat on my shelf. Obviously well-made and lovingly produced, but if I go back to the old ways I want OD&D my way.

My main group, which will hopefully be in person again before long, plays 5e. I'm happy with that. I'm also putting together a discord for OD&D games, just online since two in-person things would be far too much. Those are the ways my interests fall these days. I don't really feel connected to the current OSR, and I'm okay with that as well. I'm not interested in the new variants to come down the pike and I've never gotten over how ugly the OSR scene got toward the end of the G+ days, so I'd rather just stay with where I am.

[jeffb]

Jun 19, 2021 9:11:46 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Jun 18, 2021 19:18:57 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I'm speaking of the recent/current OSR. Not 10 or 15 years ago.

As for your question- I can't help you there.

As an example, I can tell you I was very invested in the OSR in the early days. These days, I'm not at all. I don't buy new product or rulesets. I don't support OSR type KS projects (I did just back a DCC RPG adventure, but I don't consider DCC RPG as OSR) Other than Grognardia, I'm not following anyone who still happens to BLOG, I don't listen to Podcasts or watch/sub much in the way of Youtoobz videos that focus on OSR games or product (e.g. Questing Beast, or Tenkar). I don't watch any liveplays for C&C or S&W or whatever. I watch Prof DM on yootoob, but he is not what I would consider an OSR channel, though he sometimes has OSR content.

In recent years, I also mainly use my old books, and not clones- the exception being Fin's Whitebox.

I do watch/listen when a video or podcast is speaking directly to original products, or interviewing old TSR authors, etc like last week's interview with Jim Ward and RPG Pundit. I

I'm not talking about picking a specific niche of the OSR and which parts you like or dislike. I'm asking about the high level view- You are either involved in some way (whether great, small or in between) or not at all.

Okay, thanks for telling me this is contemporary.

I have backed a Kickstarter for a module by Chainsaw. I continue to buy products that are compatible with Gygax era rules (and their clones). Is that support for or investment in the OSR?

I only really run at my table my own house-ruled variant of the original rules.

I do follow blogs -- especially of folks on these boards and at the K&KA.

I don't watch much youtube about my hobby, as I usually find videos of people talking about D&D pretty boring.

Let me ask it this way: if you voted your own poll, how did you vote? Based upon your example, that may help me to discern how I might best vote.

I voted "no real investment:

[talysman]

I had to struggle a few days with an answer. The big problem was the word "investment".

I follow a few OSR blogs and maintain my own, although recently I've been focusing on non-RPG projects and haven't had much time for blogs. And I support in the abstract people working to make supplements for old school class-and-level exploration fantasy games.

But:

- I'm pretty narrow in my interests. A lot of the so-called "OSR" these days is people who aren't interested in old school games, especially D&D-alikes. 90% of all blogs are about the latest hotness that's only loosely connected to D&D; for a while, it was all GLOG, not sure if that's still the trend... might be all Mothership at this point.
- I am not interested in commercial projects. I'm more interested in hobbyists who distribute their stuff at-cost, or for donations, or free.
- I really, REALLY am not interested in commercial projects. It has to be repeated, because the other trend I see in the blogs is perpetual promotions of this or that kickstarter, or everyone getting on the hype train for some upcoming product. I don't spend much money, because I'm hyper low income, and I've pretty much settled on spending my entertainment budget on RiffTrax these days instead of RPG products.

So yeah, in many ways, I have close to zero investment in the OSR scene, if you mean the weird OSR-adjacent commercial PR factory and its fans. But I still think of myself as being part of the OSR, or at least part of the "old school" Old School Renaissance.

[acodispo]

Yeah, as others have noted I suspect my definition of "OSR scene" is way off from how others would define it. To give it a try, though, I'm going to vote "fairly invested". Why?

• The regular games I'm currently playing in all use rulesets from the 1970s (or reasonably accurate clones thereof). These rulesets predate the first ruleset I played D&D with (AD&D 2nd Edition), and importantly they predate 3rd Edition D&D.
  
• I regularly browse the Old School RPG Planet (a combined newsfeed of blogs that have self-defined as related to OSR).
  
• I regularly browse this forum, which I would certainly consider part of "the scene"!
  

If I were asked without context to define "the OSR scene" I might say:

"All the blogs, forums, social media, and in meatspace where gamers are discussing & experiencing rulesets and playstyles from the 70s, 80s, and early 90s, mostly focused on D&D but also including other games."

I seldom buy entertainment, so I can't measure "investment" in $$ spent, I measure it in time/energy. I don't participate in corporate social media, so anything that's happening on FB, MeWe, Twitter, etc, isn't something I'd be exposed to. And I don't usually enjoy the media of video and podcasts. So my media world consists of blogs, forums, and non-corporate social media occasionally (I'm on Mastodon and read about OSR topics there), and as little of that as I consume, it's almost all related to "old school" rules and playstyles.

Is there a more official "scene" that I'm not aware of?

A possibly-somewhat-related question: How do people here feel about the Wikipedia entry for OSR?

Wikipedia: Old School Revival

Which says among other things:

The Old School Revival, Old School Renaissance, or simply OSR, is a movement among players of tabletop role-playing games (especially Dungeons & Dragons) that draws inspiration from the earliest days of tabletop RPGs in the 1970s.

That's a very workable definition as far as I'm concerned, and would, for example, place this forum squarely within that "scene".