Gnomes vs Hobbits

[Punkrabbitt]

Gnomes and hobbits/halflings both came to my attention as being essentially similar player character races in the 1e AD&D Players Handbook. They were given different stat modifiers and class restrictions, but I always wondered why they weren't simply rolled together. They were both the same size and lived in essentially the same places. I know that in some of the later works they were both taken in many different directions, but still: what's the deal with having both of these guys out there?

I would appreciate it if we could all keep this friendly. Mostly, discussions here at odd74 remain so, but I'd like to make this special request anyways

[DungeonDevil]

Since I grew up with Poortvliet's GNOMES, IMC they are much smaller than Hobbits/halflings.

In my soon-to-be-released RPG both "hobbits" and gnomes are physically and mechanically different to make playing them more satisfying.

I've got nothing against Hobbits, but after the widespread burn-out with the JRRT property (thanks to Peter Jackson), I wanted to shift emphasis back to the under-appreciated Gnomes.

[captainjapan]

I guess I haven't seen a Player's Handbook, in a while. I would have picked dwarves as most similar to gnomes.

[Piper]

Nov 4, 2020 19:29:36 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

I guess I haven't seen a Player's Handbook, in a while. I would have picked dwarves as most similar to gnomes.

I run them as dwarves lite IMC.

[asaki]

Yeah, pretty sure Chainmail and/or OD&D lumps Gnomes in with Dwarves.

[hamurai]

Aye, gnomes are closer to dwarves than halflings. As a general distinction, we usually have gnomes live either underground in mountains, in search for precious stones, or in forests in burrows and hollow trees and such. Halflings are closer to humans, really.

[tombowings]

Without gnomes, how can we have gnolls?

[Finarvyn]

Note the typo above: "Lord Dunsany."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Plunkett,_18th_Baron_of_Dunsany

[jeffb]

Over the years I've become so tired/sick of the standard D&D demi human races that the only one I do include/allow/that exists in my homebrew setting/s is the Gnome. I've always liked Gary's /AD&D's take on them (which is essentially as hamurai described above: Rock Gnomes, and Forest Gnomes)

[captainjapan]

Does anyone recall the movie, Return to Oz, where Nomes were Claymation'ed into earth elementals?.

[flailsnail75]

I like them as two different races. It’s all about role playing and not stat bonuses anyway, just my opinion.

[DungeonDevil]

Nov 5, 2020 8:52:22 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Does anyone recall the movie, Return to Oz, where Nomes were Claymation'ed into earth elementals?.

According to Paracelsus, the gnomes ARE earth elementals!

AIR = sylphs
EARTH = gnomes
WATER = undines
FIRE = salamanders

[geoffrey]

Nov 4, 2020 20:22:57 GMT -6 Piper said:

Nov 4, 2020 19:29:36 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

I guess I haven't seen a Player's Handbook, in a while. I would have picked dwarves as most similar to gnomes.

I run them as dwarves lite IMC.

I think of gnomes as the highest and most noble of dwarves:

From page 16 of Monsters & Treasure (book 2 of the 1974 D&D rules): "GNOMES: Slightly smaller than Dwarves, and with longer beards, these creatures usually inhabit the hills and lowland burrows as opposed to the mountainous homes which Dwarves choose. They are more reclusive than their cousins, but in all other respects resemble Dwarves."

From page 5 of Supplement I: GREYHAWK: "Dwarves are about four feet tall, stocky of build, weigh 150 pounds, shoulders very broad, their skin a ruddy tan, brown or gray, and are of various types (hill, mountain, or burrowers) (such as gnomes)."

There are therefore three types of dwarves:
1. hill dwarves
2. mountain dwarves
3. burrower, or lowland, dwarves (also called gnomes)

Burrower dwarves (gnomes) differ only slightly from hill dwarves and mountain dwarves:
1. Burrower dwarves are slightly smaller.
2. Burrower dwarves have longer beards.
3. Burrower dwarves are more reclusive.
4. Burrower dwarves inhabit lowland burrows.

I think of the above three types of dwarves as being as similar to one another as high elves, gray elves, and wood elves are to each other.

I do not find it odd that a type of dwarf is commonly referred to by a different name (gnome). This is also true of those gray elves who have pale golden hair and violet eyes, who are referred to not as elves but as faeries. Interestingly, Elrond in the first printing of The Hobbit referred to what the Monster Manual calls high elves as gnomes: "They [Orcrist and Glamdring] are old swords, very old swords of the elves that are now called Gnomes." (This sentence was later revised to read, "They are old swords, very old swords of the High Elves of the West, my kin.")

In both cases, the word gnome can be derived from the word gnomic, relating to wise sayings. The elves called gnomes were the most skilled in craft, and their chief crafted the wondrous jewels known as the Silmarils. Similarly, the DMG (on p. 16) notes that gnomes "love all sorts of precious stones, and they are masters of gem polishing and cutting". It is also perhaps significant on this score that burrower dwarves live centuries longer than hill or mountain dwarves.

It is also interesting that the AD&D Monster Manual notes: "It is rumored that there exist gnomes with magical abilities up to 4th level, but this has not been proved." Like hill and mountain dwarves, they cannot be magic-users or illusionists. This reference I am convinced refers to svirfnebli (first detailed in D2: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa).

My AD&D Middle-earth campaign is set in the lands in the map in The Hobbit. In light of burrower dwarves having longer beards, perhaps the following statement from Thorin in chapter III ("A Short Rest") could indicate that Thorin was in fact what D&D calls a gnome:

"[Durin] was the father of the fathers of one of the two races of dwarves, the Longbeards, and my grandfather's ancestor."

Of course, Thorin misspoke when he mentioned two races of dwarves, since Gygax reveals that there are three. Later printings of The Hobbit revise that sentence as follows: "[Durin] was the father of the fathers of the eldest race of Dwarves, the Longbeards, and my first ancestor: I am his heir." This revision allows for three (rather than only two) races of dwarves.

So far from being contemptible little runts, gnomes can be recognized as the eldest and wisest race of dwarves, as high and as noble as one can conceive. Durin himself was possibly a gnome.

[Punkrabbitt]

d**n I love you guys.

[tombowings]

All in favor of passing the motion that Geoffrey reads too much say, "Aye."

[Vile Traveller]

Aye.

But going back to the original question, I think hobbits and gnomes as described in the original books are quite distinct, and should remain so. Personal preferences can dictate whether you use one or both in your games, but there is no real conflict or overlap between the two. I personally don't like halflings, but they are an integral part of Holmes D&D and thus BLUEHOLME™ (in large part thanks to Chris Holmes and Boinger), as are gnomes. I don't think they really follow the same ecological niche at all, in spite of mechanical similarities.

[waysoftheearth]

So... is a gnome PC limited to 4th or 6th level F-M?

[tombowings]

According the Encyclopedia Britannica, "Gnome, in European folklore, dwarfish, subterranean goblin or earth spirit who guards mines of precious treasures hidden in the earth. He is represented in medieval mythologies as a small, physically deformed (usually hunchbacked) creature resembling a dry, gnarled old man. Gob, the king of the gnome race, ruled with a magic sword and is said to have influenced the melancholic temperament of man."

Likewise, Chainmail says, "DWARVES (and Gnomes): Because their natural habitat is deep under the ground, these stout folk operate equally well day or night. Although they are no threat to the larger creatures. Trolls, Ogres, and Giants find them hard to catch because of their small size, so count only one-half normal kills when Dwarves and Gnomes fight with them, for either attacks upon the Dwarves and Gnomes or returns should the Dwarves be the attacker. Goblins and Kobolds are their natural (and most hated) enemies, and Dwarves (Gnomes) will attack Goblins (Kobolds) before any other enemies in sight, regardless of orders to the contrary.

"However. Dwarves and Gnomes will not have to roll an "obedience die" (as do Knights) to follow orders, i.e.. they will not automatically attack, but if ordered to attack, and Goblins (Kobolds) are within charging distance, they will attack the Goblin (Kobold) formation to the exclusion of orders to the contrary."

[tombowings]

I also stumbled on this tidbit about goblins:

The word goblin derives from the Greek kobalos (“rogue”).

Kobalos sounds an awful lot like Kobold.

[Piper]

Nov 6, 2020 6:30:53 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

So... is a gnome PC limited to 4th or 6th level F-M?

When I used level caps, I capped them at six. I don’t use them anymore and, to be frank, it doesn’t seem to have made much difference.

[hamurai]

To add to the origin of the word, I found on etymonline.com:

goblin (n.)

early 14c., "a devil, incubus, mischievous and ugly fairy," from Norman French gobelin (12c., as Medieval Latin Gobelinus, the name of a spirit haunting the region of Evreux, in chronicle of Ordericus Vitalis), of uncertain origin; said to be unrelated to German kobold (see cobalt), or from Medieval Latin cabalus, from Greek kobalos "impudent rogue, knave," kobaloi "wicked spirits invoked by rogues," of unknown origin. Another suggestion is that it is a diminutive of the proper name Gobel.



Though French gobelin was not recorded until almost 250 years after appearance of the English term, it is mentioned in the Medieval Latin text of the 1100's, and few people who believed in folk magic used Medieval Latin. [Barnhart]


Thou schalt not drede of an arowe fliynge in the dai, of a gobelyn goynge in derknessis [Psalms xci.5 in the later Wycliffe Bible, late 14c.]

and related:

hobgoblin (n.)

1520s, from hob "elf," from Hobbe, a variant of Rob (see Hob), short for Robin Goodfellow, elf character in German folklore, + goblin. Mischievous sprite, hence "something that causes fear or disquiet" (1709).

Very good site if you're interested in etymology llike me. I found it quite useful in my university days when I wrote about etymology of English words.

[jeffb]

Nov 6, 2020 6:52:39 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I also stumbled on this tidbit about goblins:

The word goblin derives from the Greek kobalos (“rogue”).

Kobalos sounds an awful lot like Kobold.

And as per the conversation I had with Gary many moons ago @ ENWORLD (you can do a search in the ask gary/col. pladoh thread/s), The DCS AD&D Kobold illos were never meant to be- they slipped past him and got approved by Tim or someone else. A/D&D Kobolds were meant to look like evil twisted Gnomes.

[Falconer]

I sometimes use the Narnia concept of Black Dwarves and Red Dwarves, but I add White Dwarves which = AD&D Gnomes. I have them as the oldest/wisest/goodest dwarves.

The Hobbit definitely postulates two types of dwarves. These are the houses of Durin and another, unnamed father — but if you look in the Old Icelandic list that Durin comes from, you find the other is Motsognir. The two types of dwarves are mentioned in Rivendell and again when Tolkien relates regarding the dwarves who quarreled with the Elvenking of Mirkwood in the past, which are stated to be not Thorin’s folk but the other folk.

The Hobbit 1E also mentions Gnomes, again in the Elvenking section, where it states that Gnomes are another name for Deep-elves. For some this is difficult to accept, but if you read enough of Tolkien’s early writings, it feels completely right.

[Deleted]

Nov 5, 2020 8:52:22 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Does anyone recall the movie, Return to Oz, where Nomes were Claymation'ed into earth elementals?.

This has a firm basis in Frank Baum's depiction of them in the many Oz books.

[Zenopus]

Nov 4, 2020 17:04:15 GMT -6 Punkrabbitt said:

Gnomes and hobbits/halflings both came to my attention as being essentially similar player character races in the 1e AD&D Players Handbook. They were given different stat modifiers and class restrictions, but I always wondered why they weren't simply rolled together.

In the unauthorized French translation of Holmes Basic, the translators did exactly that: they translasted Halfling to Gnome, but left the monster list entry for Gnome unchanged. Halflings don't have an entry, so essentially they are completely replaced by Gnome PCs.

sites.google.com/site/zenopusarchives/home/rulebook-printing-info-and-trivia/holmes-basic---foreign-editions/french-translation-of-the-blue-book

Nov 5, 2020 4:52:06 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Note the typo above: "Lord Dunsany."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Plunkett,_18th_Baron_of_Dunsany

As a bit of trivia, the "Lord Sunsany" typo is not in the 1st printing of Vol 2. It was somehow introduced later during re-setting the font.

Nov 5, 2020 8:52:22 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Does anyone recall the movie, Return to Oz, where Nomes were Claymation'ed into earth elementals?.

I just saw the Return to Oz again for the first time since the '80s, and it holds up really well. Beautiful visuals and fairly dark - the movie begins with Dorothy having PTSD. It was a Disney movie so it's on D+ for anyone who has been subscribing to that, e.g. to see the Mandalorian.

[Zenopus]

Nov 6, 2020 6:30:53 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

So... is a gnome PC limited to 4th or 6th level F-M?

We can find some info on level limits for Gnomes in the Monster Manual because the entries for this still conform to the OD&D + Greyhawk conventions.

Gnomes:
The highest level fighter is mentioned is 6th level.
The highest level cleric is 7th level.
The highest level of "magical abilities" is 4th level (rumored) (later revealed as illusionist in the PHB).

We can then compare this to the entries for Dwarf, Elf, Halfling.

Dwarf (Hill):
Highest level fighter mentioned is 8th. This fits GH, which expanded the original 6th level limit from M&M to 7th for STR 17, 8th for STR 18.

Highest level cleric is 7th. This fits GH: "Among the dwarves themselves, but never as a player, there are clerical types. Dwarf clerics are found as high as 7th level (Lama)..."

Dwarf, Mountain: (this is in a sub-entry at the end)
Can work up to 7th level fighter with STR 16, 8th level fighter with STR 17, 9th level fighter with STR 18. This is essentially the GH limits for dwarf fighters, plus one. This is a new expansion of limits not found in Greyhawk.

Elf:
Highest level fighter/magic-user mentioned is 6th/9th. This fits the highest levels mentioned in Greyhawk; Elves with 18 STR can work up to 6th level fighter, and those with 18 Int can work up to 9th level MU.

Highest level cleric mentioned is 6th (a 6th level fighter/6th level MU/6th level cleric), which also fits their GH limit.


Halfling:
Highest level fighter mentioned is 4th, which fits with Men & Magic. Their limits weren't expanded by GH.

Tallfellows & Stouts: (in sub-entries at the end):
Tallfellows can work to 5 or 6th level with 17 or 18 STR, respectively. Stouts can work to 5th level with 18 STR. This is a new expansion not found in GH.

* * * * *

Extrapolating from above, we could assume that Gnomes can work to 4th level fighter using just M&M, but if using Greyhawk, can work to 5th level with 17 STR and 6th level with 18 STR.

All of this fits Gary's typical pattern of expanding level limits with each iteration of D&D. Some of these levels were further expanded in the PHB, and then again with Unearthed Arcana, which also allowed bonus levels to single-class characters.

[Punkrabbitt]

Circling back to Tolkien, and the Noldor being referred to as as Deep Elves and also as Gnomes, I find it interesting that the animated "The Hobbit" by Rankin-Bass certainly lends a gnomish appearance to Thranduil and his elves. I never particularly agreed with nor enjoyed that depiction, but it makes a bit more sense now.

[waysoftheearth]

Nov 8, 2020 10:56:30 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

We can find some info on level limits for Gnomes in the Monster Manual because the entries for this still conform to the OD&D + Greyhawk conventions.

Gnomes:
The highest level fighter is mentioned is 6th level.
The highest level cleric is 7th level.
The highest level of "magical abilities" is 4th level (rumored) (later revealed as illusionist in the PHB).

...

Extrapolating from above, we could assume that Gnomes can work to 4th level fighter using just M&M, but if using Greyhawk, can work to 5th level with 17 STR and 6th level with 18 STR.

All of this fits Gary's typical pattern of expanding level limits with each iteration of D&D. Some of these levels were further expanded in the PHB, and then again with Unearthed Arcana, which also allowed bonus levels to single-class characters.

Great post Zenopus

In terms of these level limitations, the gnome seems nearer (with, albeit limited, magic use) to a hobbit-elf than to a dwarf

[geoffrey]

Nov 8, 2020 10:56:30 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Gnomes:
The highest level fighter is mentioned is 6th level.
The highest level cleric is 7th level.
The highest level of "magical abilities" is 4th level (rumored) (later revealed as illusionist in the PHB).

I will go out on a limb and say that I think the MM is referring to deep gnomes (the svirfnebli) when it says, "It is rumored that there exist gnomes with magical abilities up to 4th level, but this has not been proved."

Consider that all of the deep gnomes have the powers of blindness, blur, and change self. Each of these three powers is identical to a 1st or 2nd-level illusionist spell (i. e., the only levels of spells that an illusionist of 4th level can cast). We can therefore imagine some adventurers making their way into the realms described in Gary's D trilogy of modules and encountering some weird-looking gnomes who could cast those spells. The stories would make their way into taverns, but the fact that no surface-dwelling gnome could do that (as per the MONSTER MANUAL) makes these stories unproven. (Yes, I think letting gnomes be illusionists in the PLAYERS HANDBOOK is an afterthought. Otherwise, therein they would be limited in level to 4th [rather than 7th], and gnomes with magical abilities would not be mentioned as an unproven rumor in the MONSTER MANUAL.)

There are a couple of other references to Gary's D trilogy of modules in the MONSTER MANUAL:

Drow are mentioned in the entry for elves as a mere legend. The entry for sahuagin also mentions drow: "The tritons, however, are purported to have stated that sahuagin are distantly related to sea elves, claiming that the drow spawned the sahuagin."

The entry for mind flayers notes the following: "These monsters speak only their own arcane language and several other weird tongues--purportedly those of terrible races of things which dwell in regions of the subterranean world far deeper than mankind has ever ventured. It is also rumored that these monsters have a city somewhere deep beneath the earth." Clearly this text is referring to the languages of such races as the drow and kuo-toa. Page 22 of module D3 mentions "the realm of the mind flayers".

If the text under discussion does not refer to svirfnebli (deep gnomes), then it is a triple coincidence:

1. The deep gnomes' innate magical powers could lead thinking PCs to assume that the deep gnomes are illusionists of "up to 4th level". These deep gnomes do not have any powers equivalent to a 3rd-level spell (which can be cast by 5th-level illusionists), but they do have powers equivalent to 1st and 2nd-level spells.

2. The statement in question is said about gnomes rather than about dwarves or halflings. Module D2 includes deep gnomes, but not deep dwarves or deep halflings.

3. As far as I remember, the other statements in the Monster Manual about things rumored to exist all refer to things revealed in the D trilogy of modules. (See my comments above about drow and mind flayers.)

On top of all that, why single out gnomish spell-casters for special mention in the MM? Why not mention rumors of dwarven thieves, or halfling druids, or half-orc assassins, or elven thieves, or etc? Gnomish spell-casters are no more unknown than these others---after all, gnomish illusionists are found on the city/town encounter matrix on page 191 of the DMG.

Instead, I think Gary peppered the Monster Manual with rumors from the forthcoming D trilogy of modules. One year later when this trilogy of modules was published the facts (only rumored in the MM) were revealed:

The drow do exist deep underground.
Spell-casting gnomes do exist deep underground.
The mind flayers do have a subterranean realm.
Terrible things do dwell in regions far deeper than man has ever gone.

[tdenmark]

Nov 5, 2020 3:42:20 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Without gnomes, how can we have gnolls?

I redrew that gnoll for fun and practice. I didn't put in the heavy black shading in case I want to color it later.