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Post by tdenmark on Nov 9, 2020 0:14:17 GMT -6
My daughter convinced me it'd look much better with the black shadows filled in. Also that I missed his helmet.  |
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Post by tombowings on Nov 9, 2020 0:56:36 GMT -6
My daughter convinced me it'd look much better with the black shadows filled in. Also that I missed his helmet. Your daughter has a good eye. And you have a very talented hand. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 11, 2020 8:26:16 GMT -6
Beautiful artwork!
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 11, 2020 8:30:57 GMT -6
Ok, so if we accept that gnomes are smaller dwarfs, and hobbits are smaller humans, then way are the smaller elves? Humans >>> Hobbits Dwarfs >>> Gnomes Elves >>>  I'm one of those weird supersymmetry guys, so this becomes important in the bag of cats that passes for my mind. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 11, 2020 10:29:10 GMT -6
Ok, so if we accept that gnomes are smaller dwarfs, and hobbits are smaller humans, then way are the smaller elves? Pixies? |
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Post by jeffb on Nov 11, 2020 10:59:35 GMT -6
Brownies
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 11, 2020 11:14:48 GMT -6
That was my thought, but we don't see those as a character race option until Tall Tales Of Wee Folk |
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Post by tombowings on Nov 11, 2020 11:26:53 GMT -6
Leprechauns?
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Post by captainjapan on Nov 11, 2020 13:40:11 GMT -6
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Post by captainjapan on Nov 11, 2020 13:43:00 GMT -6
 I hope these aren't too dark. It's a couple of pages from The Book of Weird typology - Byfield, 1973. BTW; where do garden gnomes fit into all this? Or christmas elves, for that matter? update: I did find this - According to tradition, the nisse lives in the houses and barns of the farmstead, and secretly acts as their guardian. If treated well, they protect the family and animals from evil and misfortune, and may also aid the chores and farm work. However, they are known to be short tempered, especially when offended. Once insulted, they will usually play tricks, steal items and even maim or kill livestock. lovely. |
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Post by asaki on Nov 11, 2020 14:15:01 GMT -6
Ok, so if we accept that gnomes are smaller dwarfs, and hobbits are smaller humans, then way are the smaller elves? Chainmail has Elves lumped in with Fairies. |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 11, 2020 20:15:06 GMT -6
Wow, never seen that before. Makes me think that Sutherland's race line-up in the PHB was influenced by this. |
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Post by captainjapan on Nov 12, 2020 0:13:56 GMT -6
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Post by captainjapan on Nov 12, 2020 0:38:29 GMT -6
My daughter convinced me it'd look much better with the black shadows filled in. Also that I missed his helmet. Have you ever considered "improving" any other Greg Bell drawings? You must've! |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 12, 2020 20:28:07 GMT -6
Have you ever considered "improving" any other Greg Bell drawings? You must've! I don't think of it as improving so much as doing my own modern interpretation while remaining true to the "old school" aesthetic to some degree. And yes, I do these a lot. Someday my fantasy retroclone will be a fully illustrated version of the original LBB + Greyhawk. So many retroclones have been made and done so well, I figure that's the fresh angle I can give it (plus a little streamlining and personal house rules). You can find them on my blog if you click on the ART tag. |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 12, 2020 21:29:53 GMT -6
So... is a gnome PC limited to 4th or 6th level F-M? From the Greyhawk quote geoffrey posted, it seems that in OD&D gnomes are a type of dwarves - thus 6th level.
In AD&D they became their own separate thing. |
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Post by Piper on Nov 12, 2020 21:45:52 GMT -6
Humans >>> Hobbits Dwarfs >>> Gnomes Elves >>> I would plug-in goblins as the counterpart to elves. Not based upon any literature or deep study of the subject, I just like the idea. The suggestion of some of the wee fae folk I’ve seen up-thread here are also very good. |
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Post by dicebro on Nov 13, 2020 16:38:23 GMT -6
This post is dedicated to all of those who died in the Great Hobbit-Gnome Wars.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 13, 2020 18:14:51 GMT -6
I would plug-in goblins as the counterpart to elves. Not based upon any literature or deep study of the subject, I just like the idea. The suggestion of some of the wee fae folk I’ve seen up-thread here are also very good. That's interesting, I do something similar. In my game universe I lump humanoids into three groups - Fay on one side (including elves and goblins, amongst others), Giants on the other (and that goes down to dwarves and gnomes and kobolds!), and an undefined "group" of uncategorised ones. |
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bobjester0e
Level 4 Theurgist
DDO, DCC, or more Lost City map work? Oh, the hardship of making adult decisions! ;)
Posts: 195 
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Post by bobjester0e on Feb 6, 2021 11:26:25 GMT -6
I must know what The Book of Weird typology - Byfield, 1973 has to say about Half-Elves! This is so different than our D&D version.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 11:43:55 GMT -6
Makes sense for Elves to be associated with Nixies, Fairies, Dryads and such. Elfland is mentioned by name in the 3lbb and Dunsany is in Appendix N. Gary's Elves are more Irish mythology and less Tolkien. Probably one reason they can't be raised by Clerics. No connection to the natural world or life cycle. In my worlds they're more associated with the Moon and the realm of twilight. Gnomes are like the Shoemaker's Elves or other merry little folks from Germanic folklore. Kobolds are cousins of Gnomes who dip a tad into the malicious side of mischief. Their tendency to shave their whiskers is a dead giveaway of their fall from grace. No proper Gnome would ever dare.
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Post by dicebro on Feb 6, 2021 12:16:09 GMT -6
Makes sense for Elves to be associated with Nixies, Fairies, Dryads and such. Elfland is mentioned by name in the 3lbb and Dunsany is in Appendix N. Gary's Elves are more Irish mythology and less Tolkien. Probably one reason they can't be raised by Clerics. No connection to the natural world or life cycle. In my worlds they're more associated with the Moon and the realm of twilight. Gnomes are like the Shoemaker's Elves or other merry little folks from Germanic folklore. Kobolds are cousins of Gnomes who dip a tad into the malicious side of mischief. Their tendency to shave their whiskers is a dead giveaway of their fall from grace. No proper Gnome would ever dare. Call me crazy but I recollect that Elves can be raised by Clerics according to the Men & Magic Volume. Hobbits were left out as I recall. |
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 6, 2021 12:23:33 GMT -6
Have you ever considered "improving" any other Greg Bell drawings? You must've! I don't think of it as improving so much as doing my own modern interpretation while remaining true to the "old school" aesthetic to some degree. And yes, I do these a lot. I would love seeing your version of the bearded elf of M&M ! |
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 6, 2021 12:25:08 GMT -6
I must know what The Book of Weird typology - Byfield, 1973 has to say about Half-Elves! This is so different than our D&D version. Dragonlance wolud be something else with a portly Tanis Half-elf  |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 6, 2021 12:30:48 GMT -6
Since I grew up with Poortvliet's GNOMES, IMC they are much smaller than Hobbits/halflings. Same here. That will always be my mental picture of Gnomes. So I find them a bit absurd as a playable character race. What D&D did to them makes them no longer a gnome - a completely different species. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 12:32:39 GMT -6
Makes sense for Elves to be associated with Nixies, Fairies, Dryads and such. Elfland is mentioned by name in the 3lbb and Dunsany is in Appendix N. Gary's Elves are more Irish mythology and less Tolkien. Probably one reason they can't be raised by Clerics. No connection to the natural world or life cycle. In my worlds they're more associated with the Moon and the realm of twilight. Gnomes are like the Shoemaker's Elves or other merry little folks from Germanic folklore. Kobolds are cousins of Gnomes who dip a tad into the malicious side of mischief. Their tendency to shave their whiskers is a dead giveaway of their fall from grace. No proper Gnome would ever dare. Call me crazy but I recollect that Elves can be raised by Clerics according to the Men & Magic Volume. Hobbits were left out as I recall. Oh? I thought it was quite the opposite but that could be a residual BECMI ism in my cluttered brain. I'm going to read that section again in case it comes up in my campaign. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 12:42:33 GMT -6
You were correct. Both Reincarnation and Raise Dead work on Elves. The sticking point is that old chestnut about whether Hobbits count as Men. The primary authorial source is Tolkien in that regard, and he says they are, so I accept that as canon. I interpret the wording in booklet 1 to exclude things like monstrous followers in this regard. (Orc baggage handler got bit by a black mamba and you tried to raise him, etc.) I still like my Elves to be somewhat mystical, though. Even if they have souls. |
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Post by DungeonDevil on Feb 6, 2021 13:02:24 GMT -6
Since I grew up with Poortvliet's GNOMES, IMC they are much smaller than Hobbits/halflings. Same here. That will always be my mental picture of Gnomes. So I find them a bit absurd as a playable character race. What D&D did to them makes them no longer a gnome - a completely different species. What I didn't like about D&D (sorry, EGG!) was that Gnomes were far to similar to Dwarves to warrant their inclusion. YMMV, of course.  In Meadows & Megaliths I decided to compensate for their very small size (up to 16" at most -- something which would weigh heavily against them in melee combat), was to grant them much stronger magical powers -- making them a class of tiny MUs, if you will, and giving them some nifty "racial abilities". |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 13:06:54 GMT -6
As an aside on the subtopic of making Gnomes distinct, I personally enjoy their depiction in the newer Castles & Crusades printings. They're animal people resembling rabbits and other burrowing mammals. That kind of makes sense and does make them quite a bit more distinct in that milieu. Not sure I'd ever use that depiction in my games but it's a neat idea for C&C.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 6, 2021 13:07:42 GMT -6
I sometimes use the Narnia concept of Black Dwarves and Red Dwarves, but I add White Dwarves which = AD&D Gnomes. I have them as the oldest/wisest/goodest dwarves. The Hobbit definitely postulates two types of dwarves. These are the houses of Durin and another, unnamed father — but if you look in the Old Icelandic list that Durin comes from, you find the other is Motsognir. The two types of dwarves are mentioned in Rivendell and again when Tolkien relates regarding the dwarves who quarreled with the Elvenking of Mirkwood in the past, which are stated to be not Thorin’s folk but the other folk. The Hobbit 1E also mentions Gnomes, again in the Elvenking section, where it states that Gnomes are another name for Deep-elves. For some this is difficult to accept, but if you read enough of Tolkien’s early writings, it feels completely right. Awesome stuff.  |
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