the future of the tabletop

[captainjapan]

I just saw this article:

www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-10-09/coronavirus-dungeons-and-dragons

It reminded me how long I've gone without a local group. We were already intermittent, because of real-life commitments. Then, I remembered further back to when I began playing, at school. There's no in-person learning where we live. The child does "distance learning" on the laptop. Distance gaming was on the rise, even before the lock-downs. Is there any growth potential for in-person games? Can you see a time when Hasbro stops producing physical games and moves completely to digital assets? What is your prediction? Will we ever see fresh faces around a gaming table again?

[greentongue]

"High Tech, High Touch". There is a reason that solitary confinement is considered a punishment.

So, I believe that the problem is not that people no longer want to get together, it's more that people are fragmented in time and location.

It used to be there was "one game in town" you either joined or not.
Now there are a million to choose from so, people look for the "Perfect" one for the limited time they have available.
Chasing the "greener grass" ends up always being just out of reach.
Virtual connection allows that "perfect game" while still feeling empty.

[hamurai]

Nothing says "We're a gaming group" more than getting each other's character sheets full of coffee and pizza stains. You can't get that online unless you stain your own sheets and that's not nearly as annoying and amusing in the long run.

But seriously, I think that there are different player types and while some might prefer the online experience, most I know totally prefer the table group. Online role-playing is a placeholder for most of them because they don't have a group where they live.
I guess it's a problem that comes with the decline of physical stores which can host game nights. I'm lucky, we have a healthy community in Kempten (Germany) and some weeks ago 2 Adventurers League Groups popped up and brought in even more players. There's a place to play tabletop games, role-playing games, and board games on dedicated nights and you can rent a room to play - that's a rarity these days even in huge cities like Munich (I know of no such place there after Games-In closed).

The first place where new players may connect is probably the internet. They can get the rules and the platform online, which wasn't possible when most of us started playing.

[arkansan]

People are already starting to game face to face again in my area. However two of the three local flgs in my area have closed in the last two years. Though the one that remains is incredibly active. These things have ups and downs but I don't suspect face to face gaming is going anywhere.

If the success of the OSR has taught us anything it's that even if Hasbro abandons D&D entirely it doesn't have to slow us down. We have proof positive now that small publishers working from home can put out fantastic products that reach thousands of players.

[simrion]

Our closest FLGS is still open but not hosting any tournaments (collectible card games) were a big draw. My group meets at least once a week but we all know and trust one another so secure in not passing along any debilitating illnesses. Haven't embraced technology beyond wet erase markers and a battle mat. thinking about skyping (is that even still a thing?) a few absent players that are hundreds of miles away but I'm a Luddite at heart so unless another table member steps up it's not likely to happen.

[tdenmark]

No. The future of gaming is online. VR is going to reach a level we can all play "in person" virtually. It's coming sooner than you think. Meeting in person is problematic for a number of reasons, inconvenience, disease, cost, and so on. A DM will be able to instantly conjure up richly detailed realistic scenes. No one will have to imagine the game in their head anymore.

[DungeonDevil]

There MUST be, otherwise humanity will devolve into sluggards like Jabba the Hutt, or horrid things like the Morlocks. The Morlocks didn't have the capacity to roleplay: they just hunted and munched on Eloi (nom-nom-nom...). Then again, the Eloi didn't seem like very bright bulbs themselves either.

[Punkrabbitt]

Dream Park

[howandwhy99]

The necessity of imagining in my mind, along with other rewarded mental exercises like remembering, are my favorite things about the entire game.

I hope their is a future for our hobby.

[stonetoflesh]

My biggest problem with that article is the photo caption that says "all you needed to play Dungeons & Dragons" was a copy of Supplement II and some dice... That would be a very strange game, perhaps worthy of its own strange thread!

Joking aside, I think there will always be room for in-person gaming. Playing online is fine, even great in some ways (scheduling, long-distance, etc.), but the experience is incomplete for many of us used to the analog ways. Beyond that, we humans are social beings who want to be around other people, whether it's to watch a sporting event, have a book club, share a meal, play a game, or whatever else.

[Deleted]

I can only accurately predict the future for myself: I have no interest in online games. None. If my option is between playing online or not at all, I choose not at all.

[robertsconley]

Oct 13, 2020 21:37:07 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

No. The future of gaming is online. VR is going to reach a level we can all play "in person" virtually. It's coming sooner than you think. Meeting in person is problematic for a number of reasons, inconvenience, disease, cost, and so on. A DM will be able to instantly conjure up richly detailed realistic scenes. No one will have to imagine the game in their head anymore.

VR will come but it won't be a substitute for tabletop roleplaying. Why? Because you can't create campaigns and materials for VR in the time one has for a hobby.

Until that problem is solved it will become it own thing like CRPGs. Which also something that you can't create campaigns and materials for within the time one has for a hobby.

[robertsconley]

I think the future of tabletop roleplaying will go hand in hand with the development of internet enabled communication. With the pandemic forcing most to undergo a crash course in virtual tabletops there now exist a critical mass of hobbyist who have experienced the technology.

Since there no barrier between switching from face to face to using a VTT and vice versa, what I think will happen is that the hobby will become more interconnected than before especially in terms of actual play.

Before we discussed gaming via the internet which has limited the Internet' impact to a subset of the hobby. But now with playing over the internet much more widespread this means over time individual hobbyists have far more opportunities to play, which means they will stay in the hobby longer and probably try more things given time. It also to stay in the hobby while accommodating changes in one's life circumstance. If you can only play for two hours a week, with the VTTs the odds of finding a group to accommodate that is an order of magnitude greater.

I think one the pandemic abates we will see a long term boom in the RPG industry and hobby. It may be reach fad level if it isn't there now. But more likely it that we will see year after year growth. VTTs will not supplant face to face but advance hand in hand with people switching back and forth frequently.

[tetramorph]

Oct 13, 2020 21:37:07 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

No. The future of gaming is online. VR is going to reach a level we can all play "in person" virtually. It's coming sooner than you think. Meeting in person is problematic for a number of reasons, inconvenience, disease, cost, and so on. A DM will be able to instantly conjure up richly detailed realistic scenes. No one will have to imagine the game in their head anymore.

This sounds like an Orwellian nightmare to me.

I don't care if I can make myself fly in VR. I will still meet with friends and play games together.

Just saying.

[EdOWar]

I'm probably one of the few who prefers VTT for gaming. At least, for dungeon crawl campaigns. Enable fog of war and dynamic lighting, put the map on the VTT and let players move their tokens around exploring the dungeon. In my opinion it beats trying to describe oddly shaped rooms to the mapper while everyone else sits around twiddling their thumbs. Is someone carrying a torch? Great, enable a 20 ft. light radius around their token and it just kind of takes care of itself - you can see what's on your screen. Invisible monster? Move it to the GM layer and move it around the map that way. It still leaves plenty of opportunity for roleplaying, mapping, and coming with crazy schemes to beat the dragon and steal its gold. It does, however, require more upfront prep work to prepare the dungeon map.

If you prefer theater of the mind, you can just use one token to represent the party and have the caller move it around the map. Resolve battles abstractly.

With a projector you can do the same thing at home for your group. Just project the map onto a wall or onto the table. We used to do this pre-Covid, though we weren't using the technology to its full potential at that time. It's also not as easy for players to control their own tokens, unless everyone has a computer at the table.

[geoffrey]

How far in the future are we talking?

In the near future, I see computer stuff of all sorts getting more common.

In the far future, I see Dune.

[tdenmark]

Oct 14, 2020 13:05:49 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

VR will come but it won't be a substitute for tabletop roleplaying. Why? Because you can't create campaigns and materials for VR in the time one has for a hobby.

Until that problem is solved it will become it own thing like CRPGs. Which also something that you can't create campaigns and materials for within the time one has for a hobby.

You don't need to. There are already VAST libraries of assets free or cheaply available and that massive warehouse of 3d maps, animated effects, characters, and creatures keeps growing exponentially.

You will be able to type in any campaign idea and get all the resources you need instantly, as well as having them readily available on the fly during play. I'm speaking as a 20 year veteran of video games who has watched the production tools evolve from complex and difficult to increasingly and incredibly user friendly and powerful, and the thousands of artists, voice actors, and sound designers out there looking for work and generating tons of content...

Of course, it is hyperbole to say there will be no face to face tabletop gaming, but it will soon be eclipsed like radio was by television and telegrams were by radio before that. If it isn't already.

If civilization doesn't collapse and we lose knowledge of all this amazing technology like the descendants of the Romans did.

[Zenopus]

I've been playing in two biweekly on-line games since the spring. Both were FTF games that have moved onto Roll20 during the plague. One is a Deadlands/Savage Worlds campaign with my original local group, the other is Barrowmaze/BFRPG campaign with a group in another state started by a former member of our local group who moved away.

The GMs have been doing a great job, and it's been fun to learn how to play on-line. It's fun to see a map and play around with our icons. I also played in some great games in Virtual Gary Con back in the Spring, some together with my kids. It's a great adjunct.

But I will go back to FTF gaming with my local group as soon as possible once it is safe to do so.

[tetramorph]

We've done okay with VTT through zoom.

We have a guy who shares up his iPad and uses his Apple Pencil to map.

It is actually pretty rad.

But we are burned out and taking a break.

I miss face to face.

[robertsconley]

Oct 14, 2020 16:34:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

You don't need to. There are already VAST libraries of assets free or cheaply available and that massive warehouse of 3d maps, animated effects, characters, and creatures keeps growing exponentially.

Sure but they are not accessible unless you have a level of technical acumen that is beyond what the average hobbyist possesses. Moreso they are in a variety of formats, and at different scales.

In contrast 2D assets are far more common, and far more accessible and can be used face to face or on a VTT.

Look at Roll20 and Tabletop Simulator. Now look at Tabletop Simulator and Tabletopia both have their unique package format.

Oct 14, 2020 16:34:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

You will be able to type in any campaign idea and get all the resources you need instantly, as well as having them readily available on the fly during play. I'm speaking as a 20 year veteran of video games who has watched the production tools evolve from complex and difficult to increasingly and incredibly user friendly and powerful, and the thousands of artists, voice actors, and sound designers out there looking for work and generating tons of content...

And there been even more growth in 2D material.

Oct 14, 2020 16:34:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Of course, it is hyperbole to say there will be no face to face tabletop gaming, but it will soon be eclipsed like radio was by television and telegrams were by radio before that. If it isn't already.

Already happened by the 1990 after the first wave of graphic intensive first person shooters and CRPGs. Between that in the Magic the Gathering and Eurogame boom, by 2000 the tabletop hobby was already pruned of gamers who primary interest was better suited to those types of games.

The growth of hobby since then has been purely on it own merits. Helped along by the massive increase of hobbyist creating content as a result of or inspired by the D20 SRD and the lowering of distribution and publishing barriers as a result of the Internet and digital technology.

In short the hobby is already radio.

Keep in the mind the #1 constraint is that tabletop roleplaying is an activity to done within the time one has a hobby. There is no scenario where something based on VR or 3D asset is going to take less time than something based around 2D asset or theater of the mind.

My prediction is that 3D material like Tabletop Simulator will occupy the same niche as Dwarven Forge.

[robertsconley]

Something else to throw out there, I predict that electronics and 3D printing will drop. There will be a situation where you will have a tabletop surface computer that can display a various of gameboards along with accompanying computer based game aides (rules/chart lookup etc.). Along with the option to print out game pieces on a 3D printer. Then affix some type of barcode or identifying mark to the bottom and setup the pieces on your gameboard. There will also be a mode where you can play a game without the pieces bring fabricated.

This won't be a replacement for printed game but rather a parallel path. You can see the beginnings of this with iPad games that faithfully replicate a board game. Most have a pass and play mode where you take your turn and pass the device along to the next player. A couple of years ago I played Settlers of Catan with my friends while we were waiting for our badges at Origins.

Another development will be flexible displays that you fold or display. Basically your computer is the size of a smartphone or is a smartphone. You unroll the display and attach it. Viola! Instant battlemap or gameboard.

One thing to keep in mind that recent years has shown that face to face gaming is something most of the hobby wants. So technologies that work alongside face to face or interchange with face to face are the ones that will get the most traction.

[Deleted]

Difficult to see. Always in motion, the future is.

I will say that tabletop gaming still offers many things that computer gaming does not currently offer. That's not always necessarily going to be the case. I can see intelligent AI referees being a thing someday. Not for a while, but someday. Even then, a computer no matter how sophisticated will never fully be a substitute for a real person.

[tdenmark]

Oct 15, 2020 7:29:10 GMT -6 robertsconley said:

Sure but they are not accessible unless you have a level of technical acumen that is beyond what the average hobbyist possesses. Moreso they are in a variety of formats, and at different scales.

In contrast 2D assets are far more common, and far more accessible and can be used face to face or on a VTT.

Look at Roll20 and Tabletop Simulator. Now look at Tabletop Simulator and Tabletopia both have their unique package format.

This is rapidly changing. I've been following the progress of VR development kits. Developers are going to be making tools that are so user friendly - you'll just choose a map, drop in denizens and content from a vast library of pre-made stuff, invite your friends to make their characters and jump in while you run the game.

The development on the AI side, while impressive in the past few years, has quite a ways to go before it reaches the creativity level of a human - if it ever will.

Yeah, it may all be 20 years away, but when I worked on X:Wing Alliance in 1999 and compare that to the recently released Star Wars Squadrons (essentially a retroclone with modern graphics) it is breathtaking.

Of course no one knows what the future holds, just because something is technically possible it also has to have a strong enough economic incentive. Or like in the case of Open Source Software, enough dedicated enthusiasts to make it happen.

I bought a VR headset earlier this year just to be in touch with what is happening, the hardware and software are still at enthusiast level, just like 3d printing, but it is on track to be user friendly enough and priced for mass consumption.

[jeffb]

IDK where the future will take us....


:blathering on:
I'm old fashioned, stubborn, and set in my ways. I'm also past the age where technology is something I enjoy and try to keep up with. I'm technology'ed out. More often than not, I'm going back to old ways of doing things. Not because they are easier, but but because they are more enjoyable. I see how integral technology has become to the lives of my kids (or at least how they are made to feel that way), and it frightens me. My 9 yo the other day on the way to school (remote 1/2 the week, in class the rest-hopefully full time soon!) asked me "Daddy, how do you know all this stuff?, you didn't go to college!" (I was schooling her on some word origins she nonchalantly asked about). I told her that for the first 35 years of my life I read books. Lots of them. I told her my love for American History, Military History, etc. And I told her how D&D (Gygax) made such an impact on my vocabulary. I jumped onto Computers ata young age, but these days, I check emails, come to forums like this, look up a recipe- very basic stuff. I don't play computer games but a few hours every couple of months- (and what I play are the old old SSI D&D games I bought from GoG!)

Getting both of my Kids to read a book is/was like pulling teeth. I read to them both every night when they were younger (even in the womb!), and had them read to me, but the technology crept in. They'd rather have the Tablet or Ipad or Phone and watch something. My Son is in his last year of College, and I still buy him books, but he doesn't read them. My 9yo I lost the battle with my Mother-In-Law on getting her a tablet/ipad, but now my Wife sees the issue, and Tablet Time has been slashed. I buy the 9 yo books. She doesn't read them. I'm hoping I can turn this around.


I think I'm on @dungeonmonkey 's wavelength for the most part. Maybe just backed off a bit.

:GandalfVoice: They are one...the gameplay and sitting around with family and/or friends...

I also think the only way I would enjoy an online game is just like a google meet. Just talking. No dice rollers, no virtual tokens, no virtual maps. Justa conversation, trust for dice rolling. That virtual trinket stuff kills immersion for me, and turns it into a CRPG, AFAIC. And in that case, I'd just as soon play the CRPG.

[robertsconley]

Oct 15, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

This is rapidly changing. I've been following the progress of VR development kits. Developers are going to be making tools that are so user friendly - you'll just choose a map, drop in denizens and content from a vast library of pre-made stuff, invite your friends to make their characters and jump in while you run the game.

This is exactly what happen with Neverwinter Nights by Bioware. Still amounted be more work than what one does with pen & paper even if it was as well supported as NWN was.

Oct 15, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

The development on the AI side, while impressive in the past few years, has quite a ways to go before it reaches the creativity level of a human - if it ever will.

I worked with AI related software since the mid 80s when I was in college. Mostly in the area what was then called domain knowledge capture and expert system. I know it evolved from then. The good news is that AI techniques have advanced remarkably the bad news is still just a tool.

A sophisticated one to be sure dealing with thing that proved intractable like image recognition. The more advanced techniques today rely on using a large database of items to train the software, like neural networks. While the result seem miraculous it still doesn't approach what you and I are doing right now or in our game.

What it could do in a VR or a traditional first person environment is extend the ability of the referee to handle more things within a campaign. For example using a Neural network trained to pretend to be a medieval shopkeeper would likely work quite well. Odds are high as the players will just deal with the NPC as a shopkeeper and thus covered by the training. There result would be quite convincing.

I experienced a primitive form of this in Neverwinter Night which allows the gamemaster to "possess" any NPC character on the server including monsters. So when 20 orcs attacked the party, I could let NWN run 19 of them while I played one of them. In fact I was good enough with the software that I could handle up to two to four NPCs at once by hopping over and possessing them.

So I am down on AI was something that will result in sentience, I think they will make for remarkable tools that extend greatly what an individual can do whether it is medicine, industrial, or in our case running a tabletop campaign.

Oct 15, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Yeah, it may all be 20 years away, but when I worked on X:Wing Alliance in 1999 and compare that to the recently released Star Wars Squadrons (essentially a retroclone with modern graphics) it is breathtaking.

I think part of it based on what I initially learned and continued to read up on is that much (but not all) of our world it made up of deeply nested patterns. Emulate the patterns and it creates a convincing illusion of reality. That much of the advances are a result of better pattern recognition software, and more data as a result of the Internet. That these advances will keep on feeding on themselves as more interconnections are understood. Resulting in better tools for us to use that allow individuals to do more and for entertainment create evermore convincing realities.

I think the challenge for tabletop roleplaying hobby is how we integrate that into what we already do.

My view that the fundamental workflow of our hobby is

1. I describe a setting
   
2. You make a character within the setting
   
3. I describe your initial circumstances
   
4. You tell me what your character does
   
5. I describe what happens.
   
6. Repeat #4 and #5 until the campaign ends

CRPG replace me in #1, #3, and #5. So while it related it winds up being a different thing. Which what happened starting in with first text based adventures in the late 70s. From there CRPGs evolved at their own pace getting a major boost in the 90s with first person 3D graphics.

VR is just CRPG evolving to use a different graphic interface. Just as Text evolved into the static images of King's Quest, and the overhead views of Moria, and the perspective views of Pools of Radiance (I know not the first but the one I can remember). Finally to first person views inspired by Doom and Hexen. VR is far more immersive but the underlying software is still a CRPG with all of its constraints.

In the 2000s we had Neverwinter Nights by Bioware. Of course it had a CRPG aspect but it appear mostly rested on it user moddable toolkit that allowed you to create your own adventures. Despite what it could, despite it faithfulness to the then current 3.X set of rules. It still was a niche of CRPGs and not Tabletop RPGs. Why? Because while the gamemaster mode put me back in the role of #1, #3, #5. I could only describe and show things with the tools of the game. Sure I would write out some text but it was rarely satisfying especially when you and your players are surrounded by the eye catching scenery around you.

I am not saying from being reflectively negative, I tried running campaigns, one of them lasted for several months. But in the end I just wound up wrapping it up in a face to face session that everybody agreed was a lot more interesting then if it happened in NWN. And there was some good things about NWN and that type of software in that I could populate areas with stuff for players to do while focusing on roleplaying critical NPCs. The result was more akin to running a LARP event with a large NPC staff than it was to a tabletop session. Which not a bad thing.

To stress it not a case where VR version of the above won't work. It will but it will wind up being its own thing not a substitute for tabletop roleplaying.

Oct 15, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

I bought a VR headset earlier this year just to be in touch with what is happening, the hardware and software are still at enthusiast level, just like 3d printing, but it is on track to be user friendly enough and priced for mass consumption.

For my part, my son got a VR headset as well. He did most of the research but we worked on it together as it was going to be a pricey purchase for him and me. In addition among his favorites are worldbuilding software, like gMod but for VR. Where you can make and play with thing from an ever expanding library.

I realize I am simplifying thing enormously but everything I worked with from my son's VR and their flat screen version is the same as it was for Neverwinter Nights. And NWN was the same as it was building an elaborate Dwarven Forge setup. Doable but way more time consuming than anything with pen & paper.

[robertsconley]

I made this a separate post because is related but separate topic about the impact of computers and ai on tabletop roleplaying.

Oct 15, 2020 21:26:33 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Of course no one knows what the future holds, just because something is technically possible it also has to have a strong enough economic incentive. Or like in the case of Open Source Software, enough dedicated enthusiasts to make it happen.

What I hope for and think will happen, is something like this.

So you create a setting and you want to populate it. Just about everybody I know generally has two or three dozen ideas going into this. It may be more but there is some limit. Once you start working beyond this limit it become a bit of a chore and not fun. The good news is that most of time you can start small. If you keep the result of what you do for the next campaign then within a few years you will find yourself with a setting with quite a bit of detail.

In my experience a lot of the reason this stuff is not fun is because a lot of is repetitive work. It find when you describe two to six shopkeepers. But when find yourself trying to describe the 20th well often it is not as fun as the first few unless some time has passed to recharge your creativity.

A great set of random tables can overcome much of this but even they have their limit. For example Traveller does a great job of generating sectors. But even that process breaks down if you tried to use to generate an entire Imperium of 16 sectors or more.

But what if we didn't use even a great set of random tables. What if we used a trained neural network instead. What if it was setup not just randomly generate but randomly generate with the two to three dozen ideas we already had? Set it up with the idea we have and tell it to generate everything else around it. Moreso tell it to re-generate selected subsection if we don't like the first result.

Now that I can see being very useful tool for the hobby.

[greentongue]

Trying to make table setup faster and easier was why I started making large hexes for easy placement in Tabletop Simulator.
This works great! Up to a point.
Once you have a huge number of hexes to sort through, to find just the one you want, it becomes cumbersome again.
The good thing is the reusability. You can take an existing map and swap out a few things to make it basically a new map.
At that point the time spent drops to reasonable for the gaming time you will get from it.
I'm sure there are other ways to reduce the time spent making a scene. My idea is just one.

For reference:
i.imgur.com/Jhwl7EN.jpg

[Vile Traveller]

At the moment virtual gaming still feels too much like pretending to have fun, to me. I have no doubt that it will grow on me as the technology improves and the experience becomes more immersive, especially as I am physically retreating into retirement to a place a long way from other gamers.

[captainjapan]

Oct 18, 2020 2:34:45 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

At the moment virtual gaming still feels too much like pretending to have fun, to me. I have no doubt that it will grow on me as the technology improves and the experience becomes more immersive, especially as I am physically retreating into retirement to a place a long way from other gamers.

"...pretending to have fun"; I think that is one of the saddest things I've ever heard

[tkdco2]

I've done gaming via Tabletop Simulator. It's not bad, and even if you can't get a group together, you can set up a solo game with little preparation. I still prefer live gaming, but I wasn't doing a lot of that even before the pandemic hit.