|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 12, 2020 18:16:05 GMT -6
Gents, surely we can all discuss our readings of the tea leaves for the future of the table top as well our varied and nuanced personal preferences on the matter without falling out. This board has always been a venue for civilised discussion and disagreement.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2020 18:30:14 GMT -6
Star wars chess figures on a computer created scene, like the model recreated city in Raiders of the Lost Arc. All in a star trek holodeck (occulus), which you can move around in, move creatures, and with dice that you can roll. Anyone with the right headset for multi-player groups on line.
|
|
|
|
Post by Piper on Nov 12, 2020 19:54:25 GMT -6
I just like gaming. If online is what is available to me? Then that's what I do. Gathering around a table with buddies is always what I'll prefer, but virtual gaming is not a bad second choice (as I see it).
|
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Nov 12, 2020 21:26:01 GMT -6
And unfortunately the whole thing comes down to Politics, it's unavoidable Jeff, the board’s rules are quite plain: 2. Feel free to discuss any gaming topics you like, but please avoid introducing religious, political, or other "real world" discussions that aren't specific to gaming or fictional game worlds. Discuss it elsewhere. These topics tend to get people here worked up, and to be counter productive. … 5. Violation of the rules will result in a warning, a time-out, or a ban. (Usually in that progression.) If making a point is “unavoidable” without bringing in politics, then just don’t make it, not here. There are plenty of other places where you don’t have to abide by this stricture, but here we ask you to respect certain bounds. Please do not see how far you can test these bounds; please consider yourself warned. |
|
muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 159 
|
Post by muddy on Nov 12, 2020 23:06:59 GMT -6
I've been running a Blueholme game since mid-summer, using Zoom and and one of the PC's is using two monitors - my zoo session and a mapping program. The map is center screen, with played to the side. It's very,very close to playing in person. (Sometimes too close - time wasted with bad jokes, getting the map just right, etc). We've had trouble getting people precisely because there are so many games online right now because of the plague.
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Nov 13, 2020 7:12:37 GMT -6
Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds don't allow you to see each other. You only see "avatars." There's no face-to-face. It's a video game. Even if you're just doing it on Skype or Twitch..."the...difference to face to face gaming: you're not in the same room" IMMEDIATELY disqualifies it as a tabletop RPG. It utterly destroys the entire point of the experience. And as I said, I've TRIED the online thing. It sucked in every single way. It's cold, emotionless, and uniquely DISCONNECTED even though "connected" is the key idea. "Unreasoning" does not mean "I don't understand it." "Unreasoning" means, I have such a deep level of vitriol for it that there's no way I can rationally discuss it. And yet, you very deliberately just needled me to do so. Virtual gaming is garbage. That's my opinion. And if it takes over the hobby, I guess I won't be a gamer anymore. And that'll be a sad day. Fortunately, my folks agree with me so I don't see us quitting for a long time. And here's what bothers me about that response. It defends your right to love and embrace the virtual world while completely invalidating my feelings and experience that it goes against everything that gaming is, by insinuating that if I'd just try it, I might like it. It also engages in reductio ad absurdum with the claim that all gaming is virtual anyway. In a very real way, it's the ultimate in cancel culture. If you enjoy it, great. Have fun. I have, in fact, tried it. I have investigated it. I hate it and I think it represents not only the end of our hobby, but the first step towards the end of our society where we've built a world that encourages misanthropy and everyone hiding in their basement, never to engage in human contact again. Again, my post was meant for clarification. My own, if nobody else's. I wondered as I wrote it why I felt so worked up about it. Afterwards I realized that I had had the same discussion about 35 years ago. One of the guys in our group was a comp sci major, and was telling us what computers could do for gaming. Another guy flew off then handle and ranted on about how if his character was in your computer then the computer would play his character and there would be no need for him to play. Which didn't make sense, but no one could explain that to him. Perhaps I'm still trying, and that's why I wrote what I wrote. I'm sorry I upset you. I didn't realize what you meant when you said Video Game; the icons in a video game are programmed. They have no spark of life. Players do, whether in the same room or spread out around the world. When I play online, I do not believe that I am playing a video game. I've pretty much given up on those simply because they can't replace actual human beings. I never once said face-to-face was bad, or inferior, or anything I didn't like. I infinitely prefer face-to-face, in person gaming. But that's not an option right now. Also, it isn't an option for me with friends of mine who live far away. But gaming through a video chat is. I didn't actually say "try it, you'll like it," I said there was a difference between playing D&D over a chat and playing, say, Skyrim (which is a video game). The way you phrased your comments (and, frankly, a few earlier comments upthread, not necessarily by you) led me to believe that there was some confusion over what was happening. As I said, my post was for clarification. Not just for others, but for myself as well. Also, I never, ever, ever said that all gaming was virtual. I said that all gaming uses virtual worlds. We make them up. We use our imagination. They don't exist outside of that. Sure, it's a different usage of the world virtual, but different uses of words is allowed. And in response to other comments, I used the word "unreasoning" not because I don't understand it, but because I do. I have unreasoning hatreds myself. We're human, it's how we're wired. But I've never seen one do anybody any good. |
|
|
|
Post by dicebro on Nov 13, 2020 7:54:36 GMT -6
I love both. I prefer the first. But I will connect with other people online as a back up. Even as a kid my buddy and I could make up stuff, roll dice and communicate over the phone on a rainy day. Why, once there was even a thing called “play by mail.” People are going to connect over long distances in order to play games when they can’t get together. Geez, some even play on this here forum. Some hate it, but it’s not the end of face-to-face gaming. It ain’t the end of the world. It certainly isn’t a video game. Another good thing about “virtual” table top is that I don’t have to smell you and you don’t have to smell me!
thank goodness for VTT. I would have lost my mind here in the boondocks without it.
Smell you later dudes.
|
|
|
|
Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 13, 2020 9:56:04 GMT -6
I've been running a Blueholme game since mid-summer, using Zoom and and one of the PC's is using two monitors - my zoo session and a mapping program. The map is center screen, with played to the side. It's very,very close to playing in person. (Sometimes too close - time wasted with bad jokes, getting the map just right, etc). We've had trouble getting people precisely because there are so many games online right now because of the plague.
When do you play? I've got time lol |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Nov 13, 2020 11:54:57 GMT -6
Just as general note, there are more than a few folks where video or voice doesn't cut it. While it work for me, for others there are two many things missing to enjoy it. These technologies are used by necessity but when given the choice they opt for face to face interaction every time. I encounter this enough time while supporting the software I write for my company's metal cutting machines that we sell.
For example we offer an on-line class for our software training. Between voice and using screen sharing for most folks it is as effective as being their. However there is a small percentage where they either insist on in-person training despite the increased cost to them and the time delay in order to schedule.
It a spectrum ranging from preference, having no issue, will use if it is the only alternative, use it grungily, not use it all. With various nuances between the steps I outlined.
For those who don't want to use it at all, yes it does mean if their friends move away and on-line was the only way they could continue to game, those individuals are willing to give up gaming rather than use the technology to continue to game.
Given my experience in my day job, on this point it just how it is.
Also consider this, when face to face was the only option there are individuals interested in tabletop roleplaying that had nobody to play with. Or were too shy to meet people face to face but on-line video and chat provided enough of a social distance to get over their shyness. Everything has it consequences good and bad.
|
|
muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 159
|
Post by muddy on Nov 13, 2020 12:57:55 GMT -6
I've been running a Blueholme game since mid-summer, using Zoom and and one of the PC's is using two monitors - my zoo session and a mapping program. The map is center screen, with played to the side. It's very,very close to playing in person. (Sometimes too close - time wasted with bad jokes, getting the map just right, etc). We've had trouble getting people precisely because there are so many games online right now because of the plague.
When do you play? I've got time lol
Every other Thursday 7-10, roughly. Three players, but sometimes even those are hard to get together. We'll be playing again next week, then probably take a break for a month or so. (I'll be traveling). If you are interested, PM me & let me know what you are interested in playing (we have a hobbit thief, elf MU, a dwarf fighter, and a human fighter NPC) and I'll set you up with a character.
|
|
Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
|
Post by Merias on Nov 13, 2020 14:44:51 GMT -6
My old-school group has always been virtual - due to the location of the members, FtF is not practical. We've been gaming almost weekly for six years, and use roll20 with audio/video (we used to use google hangouts when roll20 was unreliable, but roll20 A/V is _much_ better now).
I was also in a FtF 5e campaign that moved to VTT in March, and we won't go back to FtF because one of the members moved. So from that perspective being virtual has allowed us all to continue gaming together, whatever happens.
Once things are safe to do so again, I'd welcome FtF games, and I think those who enjoyed them before will do so again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Punkrabbitt on Nov 13, 2020 18:28:36 GMT -6
When do you play? I've got time lol
Every other Thursday 7-10, roughly. Three players, but sometimes even those are hard to get together. We'll be playing again next week, then probably take a break for a month or so. (I'll be traveling). If you are interested, PM me & let me know what you are interested in playing (we have a hobbit thief, elf MU, a dwarf fighter, and a human fighter NPC) and I'll set you up with a character.
d**n. Thursday is the one night I can't do  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2020 11:21:00 GMT -6
Okay, not opening a separate thread for this, but - can you reasonably do PBPs on Roll20? rredmond and sirclarence got me interested in this, and I really liked the map feature - but is it suitable for a proper round-based, "post-once-per-day"-type of game? |
|
Merias
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 104
|
Post by Merias on Nov 15, 2020 11:45:46 GMT -6
Okay, not opening a separate thread for this, but - can you reasonably do PBPs on Roll20? rredmond and sirclarence got me interested in this, and I really liked the map feature - but is it suitable for a proper round-based, "post-once-per-day"-type of game? Would be doable, you could have the player tokens on the map, and use the in-game text chat and builtin die-roller. The only drawback I see is that there is no notification for the in-game chat - although there is an external chat archive you could check once per day for updates (and you would need to remember to enable chat timestamps from the settings to make it useful). Each game does have its own forum, but if you were going to use that, you may as well just use a proper forum, as it is pretty bare-bones. I guess in the end it would be more suited for a live text chat game, rather than a PbP. |
|
|
|
Post by hamurai on Nov 15, 2020 12:48:56 GMT -6
Okay, not opening a separate thread for this, but - can you reasonably do PBPs on Roll20? rredmond and sirclarence got me interested in this, and I really liked the map feature - but is it suitable for a proper round-based, "post-once-per-day"-type of game? If you want to try it, I'd recommend using the game's own forum for the posts and the actual VTT as visualisation of what was described. Let the DM control all tokens so no one can fiddle with them later and change their positioning  But, an idea: You could use the coloured text function to have players write their actions directly on the VTT, next to the map/pictures you use for illustrations. They can even draw lines for movement and such things to help the DM understand their intention. Once the DM has moved the tokens according to the player posts, the posts could be copied to the game's forum for larter reference and deleted by the DM on the VTT. |
|
|
|
Post by rredmond on Nov 15, 2020 13:09:57 GMT -6
You couldn’t use R20’s roller though. I think the chat resets every time you leave. I’ve used the map and FoW function for offsite games. PbP at Unseen Servant or my twice a month Skype 1e game. It’s great. |
|
|
|
Post by hamurai on Nov 15, 2020 14:25:30 GMT -6
Nope, the chat doesn't reset unless you clear it as DM. Not sure how far back it goes in the standard window, but there's a chat log which should hold all info.
Edit: I just checked, our last D&D campaign had 116 chat log pages which you can even get presented as a single page (for easier searches).
|
|
|
|
Post by rredmond on Nov 15, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -6
Huh. Every time I’ve logged in to Roll20 it seems the chat is clear. The last game we played I got kicked out and could not seem to access the bits of chat we had at the beginning of the session. Maybe I’m doing something wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by hamurai on Nov 15, 2020 16:27:13 GMT -6
Could be that it was deleted after an update... They do make these from time to time  |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Nov 15, 2020 18:40:08 GMT -6
I haven't tried Roll20 yet, but I have played a bit of Tabletop Simulator. If you do some solo gaming, this is a good option, as you can roll dice and use battle maps and miniatures. If nothing else, it makes the cleanup a bit easier.
|
|
|
|
Post by rredmond on Nov 16, 2020 7:08:55 GMT -6
Could be that it was deleted after an update... They do make these from time to time Must've been! I'm not on a bunch, but I see that the chats are still there from our Arden Vul game two Sundays ago - so they definitely did not reset. So, in the past, either the DM wiped, or there was an update, or it's just a social worker futzing with stuff he shouldn't  Thanks! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 9:55:57 GMT -6
Thank you, guys!  I'll then keep the game on Discord, but also keep experimenting with Roll20. Maybe, I can make use of it as a dynamic mapping tool. Real-time game is moving to Discord coming December, so that's when I'll start experimenting with Roll20, as well. Overall, this autumn, a revelation as to what has become technically possible in terms of virtual gaming. I appreciate doing this in person, but certainly, the virtual option is now, well, a real option. That's nice, even when looking beyond the pandemic. I usually spend a lot of the year on the road, and that sure has affected my gaming habits. With this new stuff, attending my games (even more) regularly has become a realistic opportunity. ...Might run that Midnight campaign, after all. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 8:54:56 GMT -6
Gaming online is like gaming at a table with me, except I can't tell who took a shower and who didn't. That part was a positive, knowing the gaming community in general as I've always locally experienced it. More seriously, though, social interaction is social interaction as I see it. What we're all doing here is social interaction. D&D can be played-by-post or over the phone. This was a thing way before the internet was dreamt of. Dave and Gary both participated in games of this fashion early on. Hell, people used to play chess through the mail! It's just an alternative way to game with friends or make new ones. It's a tool. Like any other tool, it can be abused, but it's nice to have the option. I've played in some memorable games through Hangouts and Discord with people I'd have never had an opportunity to meet or game with otherwise. Sure, you can also say the same about going to conventions or the local game store, but why can't both be enjoyed? Liking vanilla doesn't mean you can't enjoy chocolate. |
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 22, 2020 9:57:46 GMT -6
More seriously, though, social interaction is social interaction as I see it. On an academic side-trip, I remember doing some research into this a few years ago when I had to do that sort of thing. The emotional benefits (i.e. the chemicals firing off in your brain) of having real friends and family are very effectively replicated by having online relationships, or even "relationships" with TV characters on soap operas. The human brain is a remarkable thing whose main function seems to be fooling us into seeing the world the way it wants us to see it*, rather than showing us the way it really is. * Sometimes literally, such as the way we think our eyes don't see everything upside-down, though they do. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 16:49:44 GMT -6
More seriously, though, social interaction is social interaction as I see it. On an academic side-trip, I remember doing some research into this a few years ago when I had to do that sort of thing. The emotional benefits (i.e. the chemicals firing off in your brain) of having real friends and family are very effectively replicated by having online relationships, or even "relationships" with TV characters on soap operas. The human brain is a remarkable thing whose main function seems to be fooling us into seeing the world the way it wants us to see it*, rather than showing us the way it really is. * Sometimes literally, such as the way we think our eyes don't see everything upside-down, though they do.Indeed. This is also why we tend to see patterns, especially faces, in nature. Like Bob Ross says, everyone needs a friend. If there isn't a friend readily available, we create one. We create our own internal worlds of happiness. Gaming is an extension of that. It's all the same. "As above, so below." |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Dec 6, 2020 2:34:03 GMT -6
The pandemic won't last forever, and we'll eventually go back to gaming with friends on the tabletop. Maybe we can use this time to fix up our game rooms? Here's something for inspiration. www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzadxOkUAdQ |
|
|
|
Post by verhaden on Dec 6, 2020 16:27:45 GMT -6
My first RPG experience was in an IRC chatroom. (And no, not like that.) Our channel regularly played Team Fortress Classic, Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II (Saber Battle X!!), Ultima Online, etc. We gamed weekly Friday nights at 11 EST. We played Earthdawn, I think -- spell matrices and all -- in the chat window with a dice bot. Lasted about 6 months?
Honestly, I'd probably say my gaming has been 60/40 in favor of online play. That being said, I enjoy being at the table with friends. I think there will always be room for both.
***
And yeah, I can see Hasbro going completely digital. Not anytime soon, though, as I think they still sell print books at a good clip.
|
|
|
|
Post by Starbeard on Dec 10, 2020 22:44:28 GMT -6
Just chiming in to say that I've played a PBP of a hex and counter style wargame on R20 and it seemed to work just fine. We mostly communicated through phone messages, but rolled in the game and just sent a message when our turn was done and summarized what happened.
I can actually see it being used for a refereed double-blind game. The GM would create three copies of the map, then drag the individual players to their team's map (they'll always log in on that map as long as you don't move them again). The center map is for the GM only.
All players could then make their moves simultaneously, and the GM can use the real map to process the turn and determine what actually happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by greentongue on Dec 11, 2020 12:49:22 GMT -6
All players could then make their moves simultaneously, and the GM can use the real map to process the turn and determine what actually happens. Having done a game like that on RPOL.net, I can tell you it gets to be more work than fun for the GM. Certainly doable. When you consider the time spent on traveling to and from the game. Arranging things on the home front to not require your presence for the time the game and travel will last, and raising that to the power of (number of players) having the option to just login from your computer of smart device is a "game changer". In a good way. |
|
