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Post by tombowings on Oct 25, 2020 0:37:45 GMT -6
I really enjoyed FLAILSNAILS back in 2010-2011. I wish something like that would pop up again.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 8, 2020 12:05:22 GMT -6
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Post by flailsnail75 on Nov 10, 2020 18:33:39 GMT -6
I can only speak for myself of course, but I’ve never played online and I’ve only played in person around a table. It’s the only way I plan on ever playing.
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Post by coffee on Nov 11, 2020 8:01:28 GMT -6
I've been playing online for years now, in fact it's the most gaming I've had in decades and also the most consistent. I'm in a regular group with people in different countries and states, and it works. We use Google Hangouts (but now that that's going away we use Google Meet) and some sort of whiteboard or virtual table top.
It's regular gaming, just through video. There's nothing automated about it.
It works for us (especially these days).
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Post by tombowings on Nov 11, 2020 9:50:16 GMT -6
I've been playing online for years now, in fact it's the most gaming I've had in decades and also the most consistent. I'm in a regular group with people in different countries and states, and it works. We use Google Hangouts (but now that that's going away we use Google Meet) and some sort of whiteboard or virtual table top. It's regular gaming, just through video. There's nothing automated about it. It works for us (especially these days). I remember you playing a few session in my the Vats of Mazirian a number of years back. I primarily play in person, but I've had nothing but good experiences playing online. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 11, 2020 16:24:51 GMT -6
There better be a future for real tabletop gaming, because I don't, won't, and will NEVER do that "virtual tabletop" garbage. Tried it very briefly, thought it was utter crap. If you want to play a 1980s text-based video game, play a 1980s text-based video game. Sorry, I know people love it and bully for you if you do. I just absolutely ABHOR EVERYTHING about this "virtual world" crap we've all been told to love and embrace. Tabletop RPGs are nothing unless you're actually, physically sitting around a table or at least in a room with your nearest and dearest, munching on snacks, throwing dice, consulting real books, and looking at the GM over a real GM screen.
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 11, 2020 16:28:31 GMT -6
Sorry. I talk a lot about how people can't trigger me, but yeah, this virtual world crap does, in fact, trigger me into an unreasoning hate-filled rage.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 11, 2020 18:35:21 GMT -6
I doubt live tabletop will ever go away. People need live interaction.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 11, 2020 20:12:30 GMT -6
There better be a future for real tabletop gaming, because I don't, won't, and will NEVER do that "virtual tabletop" garbage. Tried it very briefly, thought it was utter crap. If you want to play a 1980s text-based video game, play a 1980s text-based video game. Sorry, I know people love it and bully for you if you do. I just absolutely ABHOR EVERYTHING about this "virtual world" crap we've all been told to love and embrace. Tabletop RPGs are nothing unless you're actually, physically sitting around a table or at least in a room with your nearest and dearest, munching on snacks, throwing dice, consulting real books, and looking at the GM over a real GM screen. Amen. Preach it brutha! |
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Post by coffee on Nov 12, 2020 7:40:26 GMT -6
Sorry. I talk a lot about how people can't trigger me, but yeah, this virtual world crap does, in fact, trigger me into an unreasoning hate-filled rage. Note: This post is merely for clarification purposes and isn't meant to trigger anyone or call anyone out. I'm going to focus on one word here, "unreasoning". Not because I don't have any unreasoning hatreds myself (I do), but because I think there are two entirely different phenomena we're talking about here. I wanted to mention this earlier on this thread, because some people are getting things a bit mixed up. One is a video game. Programmed a while ago by strangers, the responses in the game are already set. You can't do anything the programming team hasn't foreseen. That's not what I'm talking about. The other is online roleplaying the way I've been doing it for years now. You have a video chat. That's really the only difference to face to fact gaming: You're not in the same room. You still have real rulebooks, real dice, and yes if you like a real DM screen. The "virtual tabletop" that you decry is simply a way to represent where your character is on a map. The map isn't on a table in front of you, but that's not a bad thing. And the "figures" aren't made of metal or plastic and aren't lovingly (or badly) painted by hand. But it's not entirely dissimilar to using dice to represent monsters you don't have a figure for. It shows physical relationships. There are different ways to do this, such as Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds (other VTTs are available) but they only do what the DM tells them to do. The reason I single out the word unreasoning is that I think what's happening is that some people see the word "virtual" and think it means the video game, instead of the online gaming experience. It's easy to be unreasoning about something you have never needed or wanted to understand. But a little understanding can help to clarify discussion. And when you get right down to it, all gaming uses virtual worlds. But it doesn't all use computers. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 12, 2020 8:58:51 GMT -6
Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds don't allow you to see each other. You only see "avatars." There's no face-to-face. It's a video game.
Even if you're just doing it on Skype or Twitch..."the...difference to face to face gaming: you're not in the same room" IMMEDIATELY disqualifies it as a tabletop RPG. It utterly destroys the entire point of the experience. And as I said, I've TRIED the online thing. It sucked in every single way. It's cold, emotionless, and uniquely DISCONNECTED even though "connected" is the key idea. "Unreasoning" does not mean "I don't understand it." "Unreasoning" means, I have such a deep level of vitriol for it that there's no way I can rationally discuss it. And yet, you very deliberately just needled me to do so.
Virtual gaming is garbage. That's my opinion. And if it takes over the hobby, I guess I won't be a gamer anymore. And that'll be a sad day. Fortunately, my folks agree with me so I don't see us quitting for a long time.
And here's what bothers me about that response. It defends your right to love and embrace the virtual world while completely invalidating my feelings and experience that it goes against everything that gaming is, by insinuating that if I'd just try it, I might like it. It also engages in reductio ad absurdum with the claim that all gaming is virtual anyway. In a very real way, it's the ultimate in cancel culture.
If you enjoy it, great. Have fun. I have, in fact, tried it. I have investigated it. I hate it and I think it represents not only the end of our hobby, but the first step towards the end of our society where we've built a world that encourages misanthropy and everyone hiding in their basement, never to engage in human contact again.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 9:17:50 GMT -6
That's not accurate. Roll20 does indeed have the option to use video/audio instead of avatars.
Although many use a simultaneous Discord channel or Zoom meeting instead since the quality is better. So Roll20 board in one window, Audio/Video on another. As I mentioned on the first page, since quarantine started I've been playing in two games this way. Each generally meets every other week.
I still far prefer meeting face-to-face, but it's been great without that being available.
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 12, 2020 9:27:47 GMT -6
That's not accurate. Roll20 does indeed have the option to use video/audio instead of avatars. I stand corrected on that point. When I tried these platforms that option was not available, whether it was the platform itself or the GM's choice, I don't know. |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 9:32:39 GMT -6
Also, as a mod warning, we support all forms of OD&D gaming here, including playing OD&D on-line, be it play-by-post (we have games of this going on currently here), text chat, virtual tabletop and/or video conferencing. Please refrain from overly hostile attacks on these forms of gaming. From an accessibility point of view alone, not everyone can even play face-to-face.
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Post by jeffb on Nov 12, 2020 9:46:56 GMT -6
some people see the word "virtual" and think it means the video game, instead of the online gaming experience. It's easy to be unreasoning about something you have never needed or wanted to understand. But a little understanding can help to clarify discussion. I get what you are saying in the general sense, but this is clearly opinion, and there is no misunderstanding or "unreasoning" for my part and I'm guessing Jason's as well. - As I stated on Page 1, as soon as a digital map and "tokens" go up, I'm out- to me that's veering towards too much "video game". I also don't like maps and minis in my FTF gaming. Roll20 just adds more "videogamey" elements to something that already ruins immersion for myself (and most of my players) I've spent the last 8 months doing Google Meet thanks to my Daughter'school. Even when it's just myself and the teacher discussing matters, it's still not like being together at her school even though we are discussing the very same topics. It's a colder "sterile" conversation that gets to the point without the same sort of engagement. For gaming-in the same room, being able to clearly see reactions on faces, see players squirm and shift in their seats, see them nervously drum their fingers, roll dice back and forth in their hands, seeing eyes open wide, etc. shuffle feet, All that "intimacy" is lost in a virtual game. It my not be an issue for some, but for me, those are the reasons I game. |
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Post by jeffb on Nov 12, 2020 9:57:17 GMT -6
An Analogy
RPGs are like sitting around a campfire with my buddies when I used to go hunting and fishing- having a beer, talking about the day's events (or bad luck), BS'ing and lying about old times. A "virtual camp fire" could never even approximate that, let alone replace it.
Or perhaps the "yule log" video that plays 24/7 on cable.
Not my thing.
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Post by captainjapan on Nov 12, 2020 10:40:24 GMT -6
Maybe, its just a quality issue that will improve over time or with an investment in some new gear. My daughters class is mostly a one-way lecture, but I do remember from being on Zoom during grandma's birthday, when we had eight or so people on, that only one conversation could take place at a time.
When we play D&D at home, there are many side-convos. But, if I had some other channels open, like Discord (never used discord. i'm assuming it has personal messaging as well as group chat) I could fairly well carry on communications with everyone, individually, AND all-at-once.
Maybe, now would be a better time to repopularize Diplomacy. I wonder how many would be game to host a sandtable under an always-on streaming go-pro, so as to help remote players get back to domain level miniatures wargaming. Of course, some two to three people would still need to be present to move pieces. I bet Napoleonics era Gygax and Arneson would jump for joy over a set-up like that.
Again, depending on your equipment budget, mileage may vary
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Post by hamurai on Nov 12, 2020 10:41:51 GMT -6
As I said on the first page, for me personally, playing online doesn't beat playing at the table. Not by a lot. I can understand the reasons given here, not quite the "hatred", but it's better we let that rest.
Personally, I love roleplaying games and I love spending time with my friends. At the moment I can't meet my group and play. To me, the first impulse is not "ah well, we'll be playing again at some point I guess" and be done with playing until Covid is less of a threat.
My first impulse was to find an alternative. And that's playing online. My groups use different platforms (Roll20 and Foundry), one with and one without video. I'm enjoying both groups because playing like that, to me, is better than not playing at all. Plus, we still connect on a level more personal than, for example, a forum.
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 12, 2020 10:46:16 GMT -6
There better be a future for real tabletop gaming... My prediction: There will always be real tabletop gaming. It will wax and wane, but it will never go away. Computers? A dead end. Computers will keep getting better and better, and smaller and smaller, and ever more "Gee Whiz!" Later this century, you will be able to go to a store where a minimum wage teenage girl will have a little staple-gun-looking thingy. For less money than this girl makes in one day, that girl can (in 10 seconds flat) put a little computer the size of a rice grain into your head. Now you can will yourself into virtual realities that directly and incessantly stimulate your pleasure centers. You will be at least strongly tempted to do nothing other than sit, slack-jawed, experiencing the virtual realities. Result? Computers will become the meth of the future. A dead end for losers. Some will try to argue that there will still be a responsible use for computers, but gravity always pulls downwards. It will be ever less common for computer-users to do anything other than experience virtual realities. Such people will obviously be very gross: Unwashed, shaggy, wearing dirty clothes, malnourished, dehydrated, uninteresting, etc. They will be left to wither away. The movers and shakers will be anti-computer, building things (buildings, bridges, space stations, spacecraft, science stations on the Moon, Martian colonies, etc.) in the real world rather than obsessed with the pleasures of virtual reality. Computers will eventually be banned and the purview only of junkies in back alleys. Men with slide rules will take us to the stars. |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 11:00:12 GMT -6
Geoffrey, it's rather ironic that you are using your computer making that argument on an internet forum.  |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Nov 12, 2020 11:10:59 GMT -6
The movers and shakers will be anti-computer, building things (buildings, bridges, space stations, spacecraft, Moon colonies, etc.) in the real world rather than obsessed with the pleasures of virtual reality. Computers will eventually be banned and the purview only of junkies in back alleys. Men with slide rules will take us to the stars. In the absence of smileys I'm not sure whether you're being ironic there or not, but as a former slide-rule user myself I'm quite certain it will be men (and women) with computers that will take us to the stars.  As I mentioned up-thread I'm not a at all fan of online gaming. But I'll always take it over no gaming at all. Barring a premature end to civilisation (not a possibility I discount in my lifetime!), I am absolutely certain that online gaming will get to the point where the experience is better than face-to-face gaming. (fixed the quote attribution - Z) |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 11:11:35 GMT -6
An Analogy RPGs are like sitting around a campfire with my buddies when I used to go hunting and fishing- having a beer, talking about the day's events (or bad luck), BS'ing and lying about old times. A "virtual camp fire" could never even approximate that, let alone replace it. Sure, that's what my local groups are to me. I've been with one of them for over 10 years now. But what if we all moved to different parts of the country and still wanted to get together occasionally for games, say once a year or even once a month? What if I moved somewhere rural and couldn't find an RPG group within a reasonable driving distance? What if the only local groups I could find were all playing D&D and I'm bored of that and want to play EPT but no one local is interested? What if a fantastic GM was running a one-shot game in a different state? What if I played in or ran a great game at an out-of-state con and wanted it to continue? What if my partner works nights and I have to watch the kids, and only have time to play after they are asleep? What if I were disabled and couldn't regularly get out of the house? What if I became immunocompromised and couldn't be near others? Virtual gaming simply provides more options to increase gaming accessibility. During Virtual Gary Con my son & I played together in a session of Tunnels & Trolls run by fantastic GM who lived in New Zealand and players in other parts of the U.S. I got to play T&T for the first time ever. We continued the game with the same players for a few weeks after. All made possible by virtual gaming. |
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Post by geoffrey on Nov 12, 2020 11:22:23 GMT -6
Geoffrey, it's rather ironic that you are using your computer making that argument on an internet forum. Indeed. We haven't gotten to the dead end yet.  |
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Post by jeffb on Nov 12, 2020 11:22:58 GMT -6
An Analogy RPGs are like sitting around a campfire with my buddies when I used to go hunting and fishing- having a beer, talking about the day's events (or bad luck), BS'ing and lying about old times. A "virtual camp fire" could never even approximate that, let alone replace it. Sure, that's what my local groups are to me. I've been with one of them for over 10 years now. But what if we all moved to different parts of the country and still wanted to get together occasionally for games, say once a year or even once a month? What if I moved somewhere rural and couldn't find an RPG group within a reasonable driving distance? What if the only local groups I could find were all playing D&D and I'm bored of that and want to play EPT but no one local is interested? What if a fantastic GM was running a one-shot game in a different state? What if a played/ran in a great game at an out-of-state con and wanted it to continue? What if my partner works nights and I have to watch the kids, and only have time to play after they are asleep? What if I were disabled and couldn't regularly get out of the house? What if I became immunocompromised and couldn't be near others? Virtual gaming simply provides more options to increase gaming accessibility. During Virtual Gary Con my son & I played together in a session of Tunnels & Trolls run by fantastic game master who lived in New Zealand. I got to play T&T for the first time ever. We continued the game for a few weeks after. All made possible by virtual gaming. What if, those things don't sound exciting to me? I don't have an issue "leaving" something that no longer holds the interest or fun for me. I was a hobbyist archer and hunter, who got into it because I got bored with firearms. I left it altogether after 20 years as the industry boomed , technology increased, and I lost interest in the way competitions were being held. The parameters changed, and I no longer enjoyed it. RPGs are no different. |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 11:46:06 GMT -6
Then don't play that way...? Seriously, no one is forcing anyone to play on-line, just like no-one is forcing you write posts here rather than talking in person to someone.
Face-to-face D&D was booming prior to the pandemic. There are tons of 5E games locally here, facilitated by Meet-Up.
One of my groups recently started a con (Scrum Con), and we had the second one just before the pandemic. It doubled in size from the first year.
Gary Con was bigger than ever in 2019.
As soon it is safe, I predict all of the FTF gaming will quickly return.
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Post by tombowings on Nov 12, 2020 11:58:08 GMT -6
I guess I won't be the only one uninterested in Neuralink  |
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Post by jeffb on Nov 12, 2020 12:34:46 GMT -6
Then don't play that way...? Seriously, no one is forcing anyone to play on-line, just like no-one is forcing you write posts here rather than talking in person to someone. Face-to-face D&D was booming prior to the pandemic. There are tons of 5E games locally here, facilitated by Meet-Up. One of my groups recently started a con (Scrum Con), and we had the second one just before the pandemic. It doubled in size from the first year. Gary Con was bigger than ever in 2019. As soon it is safe, I predict all of the FTF gaming will quickly return. I never said anyone is forcing me to play either, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue along these lines? Some of us are simply saying if we were forced to go virtual , we wouldn't bother playing and we are discussing the reasons why. The problem is, some people seem to be implying we shouldn't feel this way, because they don't feel the same way . That somehow we are misguided, or just don't understand the facts. *snip COVID guidance* |
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 12, 2020 13:02:30 GMT -6
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Post by jeffb on Nov 12, 2020 14:23:13 GMT -6
Actually you brought up the pandemic and safety, so I was just riffing off that. I'm not telling people to disregard anything (though I personally feel, from what I've witnessed, much of it is BS). I'm saying If people don't want to sit idle and game virtually, start doing something about it. Start asking the tough questions, demand answers, and get active. And unfortunately the whole thing comes down to Politics, it's unavoidable when talking about why we are doing so much virtual gaming. Also unfortunately, the CDC is politically motivate (Despite being a Federal Agency, receives outside funding from large corporations such as Coca Cola, and the head of the CDC is a political appointee that does not require Senate approval- i.e. it's always some politician's golden child). |
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Post by thegreyelf on Nov 12, 2020 14:28:03 GMT -6
Then don't play that way...? Seriously, no one is forcing anyone to play on-line, just like no-one is forcing you write posts here rather than talking in person to someone. Face-to-face D&D was booming prior to the pandemic. There are tons of 5E games locally here, facilitated by Meet-Up. One of my groups recently started a con (Scrum Con), and we had the second one just before the pandemic. It doubled in size from the first year. Gary Con was bigger than ever in 2019. As soon it is safe, I predict all of the FTF gaming will quickly return. I never said anyone is forcing me to play either, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue along these lines? Some of us are simply saying if we were forced to go virtual , we wouldn't bother playing and we are discussing the reasons why. The problem is, some people seem to be implying we shouldn't feel this way, because they don't feel the same way . That somehow we are misguided, or just don't understand the facts. Hear, hear. That's all I'll say for fear of getting in trouble here. A few things have just become very clear on this thread. |
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