Poison Damage rules--

[oldkat]

A little assist, if you please.

I haven't checked my CM pdf, but just going through the 3 LBBs all I get out of poison is that, it either does the full amount of damage (do they mean physical?) possible, or half if the character makes his or her Save throw. There is no "Save or Die!" that I can find.
Greyhawk lists a variable damage rule if characters are using variable damage for weapons, but even that doesn't clarify the matter much. Like, what's the point of a Slow or Neutralize poison if all the damage its gonna do is 6 or 3?

Please cite more on this if you all can, as what I end up deciding will go into the Reimagined OD&D document and my Lost Lands campaign.

Thank you.

[mindcontrolsquid]

I know there was a discussion about this here at one point. I rather like the system presented there.

The only thing I can add myself is that there are references to poison being "deadly," such as in the description for the Medusa in M&T. However, I'm not certain if this is to be taken literally or is being used as a figure of speech.

[snorri]

That's also my reading.

In Epées & Sorcellerie, I transcribed as such :

Poison can either have a specific effect (sleep, sickness), or more often be fatal. Unless it says otherwise, especially in the description of a spell or a
monster, consider the poison to be fatal.

This type of poison causes a number of d6 damage dice equal to half the level of the monster or spell. The total is halved on a successful saving
throw.

For poisons of plant origin, consider the default damage to be 1d6

[talysman]

There isn't even a description of how to handle a Potion of Poison, other than to mislead players by describing it as some other potion. However, in Greyhawk, the same note on Potion of Poison reads: "Referee will mislead players to the best of his ability in order to either make them believe it is a useful potion or to taste the poison, for even a small sip will suffice to kill." This sounds like instant death poison to me, although a good argument could be made poisonous creatures should do damage instead of instant death, with maybe some high-level exceptions.

There is a mention in Underworld & Wilderness Adventures of a shallow trap with poison spikes being certain to kill those that fall in, which might also be interpreted as an instant death poison.

The Judges Guild Ready Reference sheets have an interesting way of handling poison damage and delay, although a quicker way perhaps is to assume that poison does additional damage equal to base damage or 1d6 minimum, half damage on a save. This will still kill most 1st level characters, but higher-level characters stand a chance of surviving even a failed save. The minimum poison damage guarantees that some creatures that do no real physical damage, like asps or normal-sized brown recluse spiders, can still kill ordinary humans. For a delay until onset, subtract the monster's HD from 10 turns. This makes a purple worm's sting potentially instantly fatal.

[oldkat]

Evidently J. Eric Holmes (who edited the od&d rules for his blue book 1977 "Basic" manual) saw it as meaning this: "If a hit is scored by a poisoned weapon, a curare tipped blowgun dart, the poisoned sting of a giant scorpion, etc., the victim must make his saving throw against poison or paralysis and also take the number of damage points indicated by the die roll." So, there's that!

[Zenopus]

Holmes is just explaining there that you take the normal d6 damage from the hit (weapon or monster) and must also save versus poison. The combat examples show this in action. Bruno takes 2 points of damage from a spider bite - not enough to kill him - but then fails his save vs the poison and "dies a horrible death".

[oldkat]

Nov 10, 2015 21:56:13 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Holmes is just explaining there that you take the normal d6 damage from the hit (weapon or monster) and must also save versus poison. The combat examples show this in action. Bruno takes 2 points of damage from a spider bite - not enough to kill him - but then fails his save vs the poison and "dies a horrible death".

Ahh, yes. I remember seeing this before. Good cite. But... is the good doctor injecting (no pun intended) his own mechanic into the works (like, high DEX swings first--not in LBBs!) Or is he actually extrapolating that from some vague passage in TU&WA? I see something similar on p.13, where a poison needle-trap appears in a chest. But other than " Here a check to see if the character opening it makes his saving throw for poison" is given; but that's all.

[Zenopus]

All I can add is that Holmes wrote it that way in the manuscript and Gygax left it unchanged as published, indicating he didn't see any need to change what Holmes had written.

[oldkat]

Understood. But we are dealing with language. What Holmes wrote, and what EGG saw fit to allow included, may be still be the same thing described in M&M on pages 20-21. That is, right the 2 hp damage of the bite didn't kill the character, but he missed his Saving throw, which, according to what I just cited, means he would have taken an additional 6 hp of "poison damage"...which very well could have finished Bruno off, since Holmes does not list Bruno's hp during this example; for some strange reason! All total, Bruno would have taken 8 hp of damage according to the cite from M&M, and if poison is intended to be played with this perspective, it is more than capable of killing Bruno in this manner.
So far I am moved to accept this idea on how poison works, in light of the little bits of hints sprinkled within the LBBs and Holmes. Easily one could just adopt the latter editions' take on it if one wanted to. But I'm looking for that "old goodness" I guess.

[aldarron]

Geofrey had an interesting post on the subject link

I'd argue that the "save or die" business doesn't come into the rules until Greyhawk. It may well be how Gygax was playing all along, but the 3lbb's only mention "damage" as the result of poison. The way I play it is that some poisons, like some monsters can do more damage than others. Most are 6 point poisons but 16.7% are 1d6 * 6.

[Deleted]

May 25, 2016 10:18:40 GMT -6 aldarron said:

Most are 6 point poisons but 16.7% are 1d6 * 6.

Sheesh, that packs a punch. Do you determine that randomly? Most of the time giant spiders do a d6, but sometimes you run into a particularly potent one? Or does the 16.7% track to breeds of monsters?

[Deleted]

If anybody cares about how Gary actually played it, if you failed your save vs. poison you died there and then. If somebody immediately yelled "I cast slow/neutralize poison" when Gary said "the giant scorpion hit" it could save you.

[dragondaddy]

I remember buying potions of neutralize poison or poison antidotes in the first few weeks of playing in early 1977. We used antidotes and healing potions more often than spells to counteract the effects of poisons in the early days. Most of the poisons were more often than not fatally lethal, and some we came across provided near instantaneous death. Some notable poisons from our very first games included;

Standard snakes, the Fer-De-lance, King Cobras, Coral Snakes, Asps, Black Moccasins, and Rattlesnakes were all venomous. +4 on ST vs. Rattlesnakes because everyone knew if you cut open the Rattlesnake wound, and sucked out the poison and spit it out, you could more often than not, survive. My Dad actually survived a Rattlesnake bite doing exactly this. He said it made him sick enough that he he wished he was dead, and that the illness effects lasted a couple weeks. Took much longer for the wound and bite to heal. (we all lived out in the West, In Colorado, so we knew the basics for a rattlesnake bite.) No one ever talked about what would happen if you fell into a Rattlesnake Den though. Dens have anywhere from 3-100 snakes on average, most of the time, the snakes are very hostile in the den, because they have gathered in a crevice, cave, pit, or hole, or in a hollow log. They gather together in the winter to mate, to stay warm, and for protection. They are slow, often nearly blind because they are shedding or molting their skin in the Den and will strike or bite at any unusual movement (They seem not to bite other snakes though). Rattlesnakes will often strike first without rattling if they are in the Den, and then Rattle to warn of a second strike. King Cobras can spit their poison very accurately up to 8' and would would attempt to blind you, in order to escape.

Giant Spiders (from Greyhawk) were considered very venomous and could deliver a lethal bite.

Both Scorpions and Giant Scorpions were ruled as venomous - lethal in our campaigns.

Wyverns can of course deliver a lethal sting.

The Asps of a Medusae (If one could get close enough first and avoid being polymorphed into stone) were also lethal.

Any giant venomous snake species was considered lethal (not constrictors though...)

The Purple Worm with its' giant tail stinger so big that it could pump you so full of a dissolving lethal nerve poison that you would literally explode showering venom all over your company. Death was a virtually painless, and instantaneous, and would happen the very same round when stung.

Encountering any of these animals or monsters was an extremely hazardous affair even for high level characters that usually warranted a slow but steady retreat and prayers that the critter would not get close enough to deliver any poison which would require a ST vs. death. SAVE OR DIE!

Puffer Fish or Blowfish poison (delivered from the fishes spine) was considered lethal in our campaigns.

The players had their own poisons that they would concoct or brew from plants they found in the forests. The GM (and later myself as GM) generally ruled these as 1HD, 2HD or 3HD poisons, that if the save vs. poison was not made would deliver additional dice of damage, as well as other effects such as paralysation, slowness, disorientation, hallucinations, and sometimes they just reduced combat effectiveness for a specific duration, or time.

There were of course naturally lethal poisons too, such as Cyanide (Created by alchemists), the Black Lotus (Save vs. Death and Save vs. Paralysation plus damage), The Blue Lotus (Save vs. Paralysation plus damage). Lotus flowers naturally contain cyanogenic compounds, and some mushrooms.

Wolvesbane, Belladonna, also known as Nightshade, and Hemlock have been used in our games in the past and potions made out of any of these plants we considered lethal and would require a ST vs. Death.

The Judges Guild Wizard's Guide (Ready Ref Sheets) had a whole page on poisons. I never really used them in games except for the first six months or so I DM'ed, when I didn't have anything else. Later I used the Purple Worm poison tables from here. A Coma was considered permanent unless the players used an antidote, and also took some other action to awaken or revitalize the victim. Sometimes even another cleric would cast a Remove Curse or Poison spell on the coma victim, after of course, the party went on a Quest or fulfilled a Geas on behalf of the Cleric, or Clerical Order. Had this happen in my games more than once at different times over the years.

Of the early games, both Arduin and Runequest had rules for using poison, but the best was Iron Crown Enterprises Middle Earth Roleplaying (MERP). They had the best tables of poisonous plants and herbs, as well as general alchemy tables for concocting various natural potions, both healing, and harmful.

[foxroe]

I had always been under the impression that the effect was whatever the DM determined (based on the vagaries of the text and how it was presented in modules). If you are worried about the efficacy of Slow and Neutralize Poison, simply rule that deadly poisons take X number of rounds to reach fatality, or have poisons do damage (standard 1d6) every round (to a maximum) until stopped by clerical intervention or the use of an antidote.

[Deleted]

I went to my copy of Empire of the Petal Throne which is my go to source for OD&D confusion. In the '74 version, it states that save versus poison is a save for half damage. But, just like OD&D, I don't see how you would resolve the attacks some of the monsters listed as several of them have poison weapons and there's no mention of how much extra damage is associated with that poison. In the description of some monsters, it specifically states that if you fail your save you die. These are written as if exceptional which seems to confirm that default poison was damage dealing.

One thing it does clear up, however, is that neutralize poison, and various things like that, are used in place of a saving throw. IOW, they cause you to automatically pass your save. This could be why Gary required you to use the spell immediately upon getting hit.

[NOTE: In the published version, Barker added the exception that a successful save does half damage or 2d6, whichever is less. There are some poisons in the game that do d12 number of d6s in damage]

[Porphyre]

Unless specified otherwise, I would probably have poisonous beasts inflict damage equal to hit points, like dragon breath.

[tetramorph]

Oct 30, 2016 16:25:49 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Unless specified otherwise, I would probably have poisonous beasts inflict damage equal to hit points, like dragon breath.

I roll d6 by HD kind of like fireball or lightning.

[jeff]

I really like the distinction between animal poison (venom) and other poisons. Save or Die isn't a terrible mechanic, but it can be a real bummer for players, esp. for higher level characters.

Here's my inclination, but I probalby need to chew on it a bit more...


- Venom (animal poison) does 1D of damage/round for a number of rounds = monster HD. 4HD or higher monster does 2D/round. 8HD or higher monster does 3D/round. Saving throw (done when initially poisoned) negates.
- Trap or other type poison does 3D damage/round up to a maximum decided by the DM. Saving throw negates.
- Poisoned PCs move at half speed and attack at -4 until they can have the poison neutralized.
- Particularly powerful monsters may do all of their damage in 1 rounds at the DM's discretion (purple worm?)

This give players time to neutralize the poison, and death is not immediate, while giving the DM power to alter the poison rules for specific monsters.

[aldarron]

Great post Dragondaddy, but I have to say, I especially loved this:

Oct 24, 2016 21:37:38 GMT -6 dragondaddy said:

The Purple Worm with its' giant tail stinger so big that it could pump you so full of a dissolving lethal nerve poison that you would literally explode showering venom all over your company. Death was a virtually painless, and instantaneous, and would happen the very same round when stung.

[jeff]

Oct 24, 2016 21:37:38 GMT -6 dragondaddy said:

The Purple Worm with its' giant tail stinger so big that it could pump you so full of a dissolving lethal nerve poison that you would literally explode showering venom all over your company. Death was a virtually painless, and instantaneous, and would happen the very same round when stung.

While I find the coolness/fun factor of this right on par, some observations from someone who doesn't really care that much about realism.


If it is pumping you full of venom, it's not the venom that's killing you, it's the expansion of fluid in the body.

Still cool though.

[foxroe]

Screw it. Save or die.
1. Don't drink potions until you've had them analyzed/identified
2. Attack venomous creatures (if you must) with ranged attacks
3. Avoid Purple Worms like the plague (that is, like a "save or die" plague!)

[tetramorph]

Sure, but the rules say die of damage per HD of person poisoned.

Save vs. ½ damage.

I do d6+1, actually.

And for creatures rather than poison potions I do d6+1 damage per the stinging creature's HD.

Your still probably gonna die from a 15HD purple worm, even if you "save for half damage"!

[foxroe]

Dec 8, 2016 12:04:44 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Sure, but the rules say die of damage per HD of person poisoned.

Where does it say that? Not trying to be a jerk, I genuinely want to know.

My impression of the RAW is that unless otherwise specified, poison is deadly. But that's just my interpretation.

Interesting side note: Neutralize Poison can only be cast on objects, not people. So one would need to cast it on the weapon/potion/etc. before it is imbibed, and it is technically useless against poisonous creatures.

[EdOWar]

Interesting side note: Neutralize Poison can only be cast on objects, not people. So one would need to cast it on the weapon/potion/etc. before it is imbibed, and it is technically useless against poisonous creatures.

That's a good catch on the spell description. I suppose it depends on how literally we're meant to take the word 'object.'

From Michael's description above, it sounds like Gary played it that Neutralize Poison could indeed affect characters. But from the spell's description ("It will only affect one object.") it certainly sounds like it could be interpreted to only affect an inanimate object, such as a poisoned chalice, for example.

[tetramorph]

foxroe, no worries. As soon as I posted it I realized I probably over stated it.

Like most things in the original rules, it is tucked away somewhere unexpected and worded so obscurely as to allow for as many interpretations as there are referees to interpret it. (Part of what I like about original edition.) So I should have said, "I interpret the following to mean that . . ." and here it is:

". . . or one-half effect (poison scoring one-half of the total possible hit damage and dragon's breath scoring one-half of its full damage)." M&M, p. 20, talking about how saving throws work, what they save against.

Now I am sure there are about a million ways to interpret it, but what is clear is that there is no "save vs. death" when it comes to poison written in the rules, Mr. Gygax actual behavior not withstanding.

I interpret this "one-half effect" with regards to poison meaning that poison affects every HD of the creature poisoned. So you would roll nD6 where "n" is the creature's current HD. A save allows half damage. I actually make poisons more deadly by making it nd6+n. But I help the PCs out a bit with creatures by making "n" = poisonous creature's HD rather than poisoned person's HD.

Thanks for asking. Don't you love this game and these crazy rules?

[foxroe]

Dec 9, 2016 9:02:43 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Thanks for asking. Don't you love this game and these crazy rules?

Yep!

I kind of like your interpretation, BTW. The scaling based on HD works nicely.

[EdOWar]

Another possible interpretation is that poison inflicts damage equal to the hit points of the attacking creature, similar to a dragon's breath weapon. If you make your save, you take half the damage.

[tetramorph]

OKay, how about this:

Poison damage = HD of victim (including bonuses)
Venom damage = HD of creature (including bonuses)

Character saves for half damage

Number of turns over which damage unfolds = total points damage divided by victim's CON score OR 6 for NPCs and monsters

So, at most 18 turns (3 hours, like Hemlock); at least 3 turns (half an hour, I suppose like some venomous snakes, etc.). But what if you roll a 1? How do you spread that over 3 to 18 turns? Okay, you don't. You just immediately take that extra point of damage. What if you have an 18 CON and you only take 6 damage from poison? Okay, so that would be 1 point damage per turn until you reach 6, then you're all done. This isn't rocket science. I just want to spread out the damage so that Neutralize Poison makes some sense.

Neutralize poison may be administered at any time before the character dies.

Now, what does Neutralize Poison do, exactly? Does it:
a.) simply stop all damage going forward? Or,
b.) cancel the damage of saving characters and halve damage for those who failed their saves?

Did it last night as per b.) and it seemed to go well. But I am thinking I'm going to go with a.) in future. Makes more sense and seems more fair to the expectations of the players.

Fight on!

[waysoftheearth]

May 5, 2018 18:39:36 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Number of turns over which damage unfolds = total points damage divided by victim's CON score OR 6 for NPCs and monsters

So, at most 18 turns (3 hours, like Hemlock); at least 3 turns (half an hour, I suppose like some venomous snakes, etc.). But what if you roll a 1? How do you spread that over 3 to 18 turns? Okay, you don't. You just immediately take that extra point of damage. What if you have an 18 CON and you only take 6 damage from poison? Okay, so that would be 1 point damage per turn until you reach 6, then you're all done. This isn't rocket science. I just want to spread out the damage so that Neutralize Poison makes some sense

Too much for me. How bout this:

Make saving throw. If you fail, the number on the die is how many turn the poisoning takes. Easy🙂

[talysman]

May 5, 2018 22:29:07 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

May 5, 2018 18:39:36 GMT -6 tetramorph said:

Number of turns over which damage unfolds = total points damage divided by victim's CON score OR 6 for NPCs and monsters

So, at most 18 turns (3 hours, like Hemlock); at least 3 turns (half an hour, I suppose like some venomous snakes, etc.). But what if you roll a 1? How do you spread that over 3 to 18 turns? Okay, you don't. You just immediately take that extra point of damage. What if you have an 18 CON and you only take 6 damage from poison? Okay, so that would be 1 point damage per turn until you reach 6, then you're all done. This isn't rocket science. I just want to spread out the damage so that Neutralize Poison makes some sense

Too much for me. How bout this:

Make saving throw. If you fail, the number on the die is how many turn the poisoning takes. Easy🙂

... Except that, if a 1st level fighter and a 13th level fighter are both bitten by a 1/2 HD centipede and both fail their saves, the 1st level fighter will die in 1-11 turns, while the 13th level fighter will die in 1-3 turns.