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Post by waysoftheearth on May 6, 2018 0:36:45 GMT -6
The 13th level F-M is 85% likely to save, but I agree with the gist of your observation talysman. It's fiddly, but I suppose poisoning could take "11 minus the saving throw die" turns instead. That way the 13th level fighter would last 8--10 turns if he failed his save, whereas the 1st level fighter would last 0--10 turns. What I don't like about this variation is a saving throw result of 1 becomes the "best" fail to roll
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Post by talysman on May 6, 2018 1:37:04 GMT -6
I was inspired by the revival of this thread to write (another!) blog post about poison, which I'll publish either Sunday or Monday. But my solution for delay, I think, will be "just roll 1d6, or 2d6 if poison damage dice <= Con".
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 6, 2018 2:55:09 GMT -6
Yeah... maybe just 1-6, adjusted +1/-1 for high/low con.
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Post by tetramorph on May 6, 2018 5:44:15 GMT -6
waysoftheearth, I also really like to go for simplicity. So I get that. But I also like to use ability scores every now and then. It came to me at the table and it didn't seem too hard to implement. But if it starts to take to long or get too fiddly I will take this cue from you! ... Except that, if a 1st level fighter and a 13th level fighter are both bitten by a 1/2 HD centipede and both fail their saves, the 1st level fighter will die in 1-11 turns, while the 13th level fighter will die in 1-3 turns. I don't know how waysoftheearth would rule it, talysman, but as I said above, one of my first poison house-rules is to distinguish between poison and the venom of a beast. So, a 1/2HD centipede would only deliver ½HD in poison damage. Even if it were full damage, 3, the 13th lvl fighter would not die and even the 1st lvl fighter might live if he is not too banged up otherwise, if he has high HP, if he makes his save, etc. But it makes since that the higher level you are the longer it takes to die. That is what HP represents: resilience. It also gives the higher level characters more of a chance to get their poison neutralized.
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Post by talysman on May 6, 2018 10:18:31 GMT -6
I don't know how waysoftheearth would rule it, talysman, but as I said above, one of my first poison house-rules is to distinguish between poison and the venom of a beast. So, a 1/2HD centipede would only deliver ½HD in poison damage. Even if it were full damage, 3, the 13th lvl fighter would not die and even the 1st lvl fighter might live if he is not too banged up otherwise, if he has high HP, if he makes his save, etc. But it makes since that the higher level you are the longer it takes to die. That is what HP represents: resilience. It also gives the higher level characters more of a chance to get their poison neutralized. Yeah, I was just going by the substance of that particular suggestion. I've been more and more enamored with using either dungeon level or monster hit dice to rate the strengths of different things, such as poisons, so I'm going with both venom and low-level poison doing damage based on their rating. So, I would be doing something similar to what you suggest for the centipede (not the same amount of damage, though.) Poison traps below Level 3 would usually be "instant" death poison, though. I personally would not give characters more time to slow or neutralize poison based on their level, however. I'd link it to Con. High-level characters are already getting a benefit vs. poison with better saves. But after the save is failed, they should be treated like any normal man.
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Post by hamurai on May 6, 2018 22:52:11 GMT -6
I'd also link poison and disease to CON rather than HP. To me, HP are endurance, skill and luck in combat. Poison and disease should be able to bring down an experienced hero as quickly as anyone else.
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Post by gemini476 on May 7, 2018 10:54:42 GMT -6
Personally I prefer poison to be "save or die", with a successful save causing you to lose half your remaining hit points. If Xylarthen has 4hp remaining out of 6 total, a failed save vs. poison would do 4 damage (100% remaining) while a successful save would do 2.
Really, though, this is mostly based on reports that Gygax ran with instakill poison, the Greyhawk note, and it sharing a saving throw with Death Rays.
It then follows that Neutralize Poison might possibly remove that "poison damage" as long as the character was not killed by it. Or defang snakes. My personal theory on the one-object limit, since there aren't many poisonous objects in the books, is that it's to prevent one casting of Neutralize Poison clearing an entire stash of unidentified potions or the like. Don't ask how the one-turn duration works, though.
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Post by talysman on May 7, 2018 15:07:52 GMT -6
I was inspired by the revival of this thread to write (another!) blog post about poison, which I'll publish either Sunday or Monday. And I did, for the record. Quick and Dirty Poison and Venom Effects. I make poisons on Dungeon Level 4+ instakill by default, and add two venom types (Weak Venom causes sickness, Strong Venom causes coma.) Everything else does damage based on monster hit dice or double dungeon level.
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Post by tetramorph on May 9, 2018 16:06:23 GMT -6
waysoftheearth, talysman, hamurai, gemini476, and Piper, okay, good points, all. How about something like this? (For me, I mean. All y'all do it y'all's awesome ways.) Poison (potion) damage = total nec. for death, save for ½ damage (Essentially save or die, but, depending upon state of the character, they may still die even after a save!) Poison (venom) damage = creature's HD, save for ½ damage Damage distributed over turns = to victim's CON (in the case of NPCs without CON score: 6 turns) Monsters take immediate damage
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Post by gemini476 on May 10, 2018 10:41:53 GMT -6
I'd probably recommend just using 10 turns as the default for NPCs without CON scores? 6 is more physically frail than 90% of humans. (It's also pretty easy to work with 10ths, although 6ths aren't that bad either.)
Also, what do you mean with "total nec. for death" when it comes to poison potions? Does that mean 100% of total HP, or 100% of current HP? Both would lead to death on a failed save, although the former would also lead to death on a successful one if below 50% HP.
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Post by talysman on May 10, 2018 11:39:29 GMT -6
I'd probably recommend just using 10 turns as the default for NPCs without CON scores? 6 is more physically frail than 90% of humans. (It's also pretty easy to work with 10ths, although 6ths aren't that bad either.) 6 turns is one hour, though. 10 turns is one hour and 40 minutes. So, not as round a number as you'd expect.
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Post by gemini476 on May 10, 2018 16:23:28 GMT -6
I'll be honest, I mostly count by turns and then convert into hours later if necessary.
Maybe assume the default statless Constitution to be 12, then? Not only is it two hours, but 12 is easily divisible into 2, 3, 4 and 6. It's also, just barely, within OD&D's "average" bracket.
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Post by murquhart72 on May 22, 2018 16:03:07 GMT -6
I always figured if you got poisoned, it took away all your hit points. Unless you made your save, then you only lose half your hit points (likely getting violently ill).
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Post by tetramorph on May 22, 2018 16:31:48 GMT -6
gemini476, I don't know. Probably max HP per character. Also, I just want NPCs to die faster. If they can't save their retainer in an hour, well, hire another retainer. murquhart72, the point is that I am trying to find a way to make the spell "neutralize poison" make some kind of sense. If you just die immediately. What is the good of it? Also, for "realism," some poisons take longer than others to kill you. Last time I used this it also added some suspense, which is always fun.
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Post by gemini476 on May 23, 2018 3:57:35 GMT -6
gemini476 , I don't know. Probably max HP per character. Also, I just want NPCs to die faster. If they can't save their retainer in an hour, well, hire another retainer. murquhart72 , the point is that I am trying to find a way to make the spell "neutralize poison" make some kind of sense. If you just die immediately. What is the good of it? Also, for "realism," some poisons take longer than others to kill you. Last time I used this it also added some suspense, which is always fun. "Neutralize poison" makes some sense even if you go with instant death, it's just that it ends up being cast on possibly poisonous items to, well, neutralize the poison. In the LBBs this mostly just means making potions safe, though. (Personally I'd also extend it to casting on venomous monsters or removing the 50% 'poison damage', but the only use that is explicit in the LBBs is being able to cast it on objects.) Basically, it's a broader Purify Food & Water.
Note how even AD&D, known for excessively detailing stuff, doesn't explicitly mention being able to save people who have been poisoned! It's definitely implicit and you can easily read between the lines, but the spell description is mostly about detoxifying poisonous reptiles, envenomed weapons, etc. It's not a definitive guide to figuring out the intent in OD&D (especially given all the changed systems), but it's worth consideration.
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Post by talysman on May 23, 2018 10:47:35 GMT -6
I think Neutralize Poison is also intended to cancel the effects of non-damaging poisons (sleeping potion/homonculous bite, paralysis poison, etc.)
The real problem is AD&D's Slow Poison. If all poisons cause instant death, there's no way to slow the poison down. This, of course, only affects those who borrow AD&D spells for use in OD&D, but still...
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Post by gemini476 on May 25, 2018 10:17:37 GMT -6
Well, AD&D has a rule that says that monster poisons take a minute to kill, but yes that's all very head-scratching. Especially since the "monster poison kills in a minute" rule is from the DMG, which was famously late.
Fortunately AD&D's Slow Poison has a rule about working retroactively on "supposedly dead" characters, although the need for such a rule really highlights how weird the whole situation actually is.
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Post by derv on May 26, 2018 8:30:41 GMT -6
I will do different things with poison depending on my original intent. But I generally use a 1 in 6 rule for poisonous creatures. A poisonous strike only occurs 1 out of 6 times. This is not intended to be obvious to the players. Sometimes I'll have them roll a save regardless, if I'm being impish. I do use save or die if the poison is intended to be lethal. Otherwise I will double damage on a failed save.
If a party finds itself battling a giant black widow and half a dozen young, the mother will be lethal 1 in 6 times on a successful hit. The young will do double damage. In the first case a successful saving throw will bring a character to zero hp's (unconscious). In the second case a save will result in normal damage.
Neutralize poison will not help if a character fails their saving throw and are dead. It can only help if you made your save and are unconscious or seriously injured by poison damage. I'll leave this up to the GM how they would want to implement this. I'd personally allow an unconscious character to be brought back to consciousness (1 hp) and in other cases poison damage reduced any where from 1 to 6 points depending on how many points of damage they suffered from poison. It has no effect on normal damage.
Since I try not to make it obvious whether the attack was poisonous or not, a spell could be wasted in this manner as well.
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on May 26, 2018 13:04:39 GMT -6
In addendum (to my 1st post)...
Okay, I've found several more things that may or may not shed light on the matter.
1. In the Original Rules (Vol. 2, M&T), only 3 creatures appear bearing any indication of poisonous attacks: Medusa, Wyvern, Purple Worms. Only the Medusa (p.10) states that the poisonous bite is deadly. The Wyvern is described as being able to use its sting-tail attack repeatedly, having enough poison in its system to do so. In none of them is any indication how quickly (or long) it takes for the victim to die; only that failing a save results in being injected with poison.
2. In Blackmoor Supplement, victims of cuts/falls on Poisonous Coral "--must make a saving throw against poison or be cured by a cleric within 12 turns or die." p.23 Which suggests that natural poisons are (can be) treated differently. That said, aren't animals with poisonous attack/defense abilities part of nature, too?
As previously mentioned by gemini476, a Neutralize Poison spell will not work on a character dead by poison. The description also states the effect has a duration of 1 Turn. Huh? What does that mean? Does it only neutralize the poison for 1 turn, after which the poison comes back? Or does it remove the poison totally?
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Post by derv on May 26, 2018 14:33:46 GMT -6
The description also states the effect has a duration of 1 Turn. Huh? What does that mean? Does it only neutralize the poison for 1 turn, after which the poison comes back? Or does it remove the poison totally? Spells with durations are always fun to ruminate on. Perhaps it could be used as a ward to be cast upon a person before entering the Wyvern's den or playing the game, who drinks from the poison goblet.
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on May 26, 2018 16:03:29 GMT -6
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on May 27, 2018 13:16:07 GMT -6
Evidently, someone at TSR did a rethink on poison too. In MM 2, p.111 Poisonous Snakes are offered up (depending on the roll) with various effects: Sickness + incapacitation, 2-8 days Death 2-8 points of damage 3-12 points of damage Sickness + incapacitation, 1-4 days Sickness + incapacitation, 2-12 days Death While its 1E AD&D, the concept of poison doing merely more HP damage/sickness/incapacitation, certainly makes one wonder.
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Post by hamurai on May 29, 2018 23:18:58 GMT -6
The description also states the effect has a duration of 1 Turn. Huh? What does that mean? Does it only neutralize the poison for 1 turn, after which the poison comes back? Or does it remove the poison totally? I'd say it takes 1 turn to neutralize the poison and get it completely out of the victim's system. During that turn, the poison may still work and do damage or whatever.
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Post by rustic313 on May 30, 2018 20:23:49 GMT -6
RAW I interpret it as save or die. I used to allow the neutralize poison spell to be used within a turn to a day or even days ("he needs elvish medicine -- to Rivendell with him!"). Depends on the poison/situation.
These days I've softened poison. Save or die just isn't fun. And it necessitates having a cleric with the right spell prepared around at all times.
What I currently do: - Poison deals "X" HP of damage per hit die of the victim, save for none. - "X" = level of the monster (from 1 to 6) - If this damage reduces a character below 0 HP then they are comatose. Every turn roll system shock. Failure = death. Success = they are eligible for neutralize poison. - Thieves may make one attempt to neutralize poison at the same odds as pick pockets. They can even attempt this skill on themselves (once, immediately the round after being hit). - Timely neutralize poison results in the character being restored to life as a Raise Dead spell, with required bed rest and all.
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Post by murquhart72 on Jun 16, 2018 10:21:22 GMT -6
gemini476, I don't know. Probably max HP per character. Also, I just want NPCs to die faster. If they can't save their retainer in an hour, well, hire another retainer. murquhart72, the point is that I am trying to find a way to make the spell "neutralize poison" make some kind of sense. If you just die immediately. What is the good of it? Also, for "realism," some poisons take longer than others to kill you. Last time I used this it also added some suspense, which is always fun. How about if the hit point loss comes at maybe 1 point per round or 1 per turn? That way someone is half dead within minutes, but still alive from making their save, but a fail means they will die in time, unless someone can act fast.
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Todd
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 111
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Post by Todd on Jul 4, 2018 18:29:47 GMT -6
I made my own thing which is that poisons do straight up CON damage, 1d6 per hour for as many hours as as creature’s HD. I also have a table of secondary effects that gets rolled on once per hour and adds further penalties and conditions into the mix.
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Post by tetramorph on Sept 3, 2018 11:55:54 GMT -6
delta, I just saw this post of yours: deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/09/rules-for-exposure.htmlI wonder if poison damage might not be handled in a similar way? What if various qualities of poison roughly approximate exposure -- now internally directed? This still gives a time possibility to even the deadliest of poisons: asphyxiating poisons, so 1d6 per round/minute. Other poisons burn (acid) or freeze (dry ice?) internally: 1d6 per hour. Still others dehydrate, 1d6 per day, or just prevent absorption of normal nutrients, 1d6 per week. That gives you a nice class of poisons to turn into a table and a price sheet. I would still do animal/monster venom/sting as damage based upon their own HD. Not sure how to get a time element back into that. Neutralize poison would cause a cessation of future damage and allow healing spells and potions to start restoring HP lost to poison. What do you think?
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Post by delta on Sept 4, 2018 10:18:43 GMT -6
Thanks for checking my blog and asking about that! It sure sounds like things could play that way. (In some sense, it's a bit like what 3E instituted.) I wouldn't mind that as a player. As a DM (after much thought, and to be in synch with DM's close to me), I personally want to honor the save-or-die conceit and not need to rewrite every monster with poison. FWIW, here's what I added to my house rules last week: For me, 6 rounds is a minute, so in some sense I'm complying with the DMG p. 20 dictate, which also opens a window for neutralize-poison effects. I don't have clerics, but do have anti-venom mithridate as a pricey item on player equipment lists.
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Post by aldarron on Sept 16, 2018 12:08:11 GMT -6
Like most things in the original rules, it is tucked away somewhere unexpected and worded so obscurely as to allow for as many interpretations as there are referees to interpret it. (Part of what I like about original edition.) So I should have said, "I interpret the following to mean that . . ." and here it is: ". . . or one-half effect (poison scoring one-half of the total possible hit damage and dragon's breath scoring one-half of its full damage)." M&M, p. 20, talking about how saving throws work, what they save against. Yep. that's the rule that Geoffrey pointed out in the older thread linked earlier You guys have some interesting ideas regarding damage but, occams's razor, I just treat poison like any other weapon and roll 1d6 for damage. Thing is I keep rolling every round until the poison is neutralized somehow or the victim is dead. However... I always figured if you got poisoned, it took away all your hit points. Unless you made your save, then you only lose half your hit points (likely getting violently ill). That seems like a really sensible interpretation of the rule above. and we can combine that with this nice little gem Olkat dug up: . In Blackmoor Supplement, victims of cuts/falls on Poisonous Coral "--must make a saving throw against poison or be cured by a cleric within 12 turns or die." p.23 So from now on I'm going to go with 1d6 per round until dead or until 12 rounds have passed; loss of 1/2 HP total if a saving throw is successful. With variations, of course.
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Post by talysman on Sept 16, 2018 18:29:47 GMT -6
You guys have some interesting ideas regarding damage but, occams's razor, I just treat poison like any other weapon and roll 1d6 for damage. Thing is I keep rolling every round until the poison is neutralized somehow or the victim is dead. However... I always figured if you got poisoned, it took away all your hit points. Unless you made your save, then you only lose half your hit points (likely getting violently ill). That seems like a really sensible interpretation of the rule above. and we can combine that with this nice little gem Olkat dug up: . In Blackmoor Supplement, victims of cuts/falls on Poisonous Coral "--must make a saving throw against poison or be cured by a cleric within 12 turns or die." p.23 So from now on I'm going to go with 1d6 per round until dead or until 12 rounds have passed; loss of 1/2 HP total if a saving throw is successful. With variations, of course. Hmm... it's tempting to go with damage distributed over time instead of rolling for an actual delay before poison/venom onset, which is what I suggested earlier. It gets rid of an extra roll. But on the other hand, I still like the variable poison strength approach, and I kind of feel that some powerful venomous monsters should have instakill effects, or at least faster death (frex purple worms.) So I'm thinking I might amend my process to something like: - Dungeon level = poison strength, Monster hit dice = venom strength
- Venoms do 1d6 damage/turn, Poisons do double damage
- Take half damage if Con > Poison/Venom strength
- Duration in turns = Saving throw roll
- Half duration if saving throw succeeds
- Modify effects for certain poison descriptors (weak, strong, acidic, quick)
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