Critique these non-vancian S&S flavoured Magic Rules

[legopaidi]

First of all

Thanks to everyone involved in the excellent thread on Non-Vancian magic

SO...

Big shout-outs (in order of appearance) to inkmeister Red Baron archersix Porphyre cleverkobold waysoftheearth coffee kesher cooper flightcommander
snorri bestialwarlust talysman aldarron premmy jeff @hedgehobbit

The reason for all of this:

I'm planning a new campaign with Lovecraftian and Sword & Sorcery influences as unashamedly seen in its "The Doom That Came To Nithagga" title. I will also incorporate Moldvay's Lost City somewhere but anyway, the specifics don't matter right now.

What matters is that I'm trying to find a way to make magic more S&S in feel.
From my point of view, in achieving the right "feel", Magic has to be

1)Non-Vancian (in the D&D "Vancian" sense at least)
2)Dangerous and taxing

So after reading the aforementioned thread (and I really liked every single suggestion) I decided to try and mix all of the suggestions and then add something of my own into one magic "system"
Here's the result

MAGIC / SPELLS
Spells are learned through scrolls, magical items, monsters, gods in the course of the campaign


1. Learning spells through Patrons
Patrons are considered various gods & monsters
To learn a spell from a Patron the M-U must defeat the Patron (in combat or otherwise) or make a Pact

1.1 Making A Pact
the GM rolls a secret loyalty check (modified by the M-U's Charisma) and must perform a service to the Patron.
Afterwards the M-U can cast the spell as often as they like until they run out of “Favours”
Favours = MU level - HD of "Monster" (minimum of 1)
Magic Users that try to cast a spell when they have no Favours left, face the possibility of
Corruption* 

1.2 Defeating a Patron
Some part of the defeated Patron is being kept by the M-U against the Patron's will so it will actively try to regain control.
Afterwards the M-U can cast the spell as often as they like until they run out Power
Power = MU level - HD of "Monster" (minimum of 1)
Magic Users that try to cast a spell when they have no Favours left, face the possibility of Corruption* 

Corruption* is something I haven't yet pinned down but I think I'll be using something similar to DCC RPG's rules of the same name.



2. Spells from Scrolls
Scrolls from spells must first be learned and then cast

2.1 Learning Spells from scrolls
requires Research as per normal OD&D rules

2.2 Casting Spells from scrolls
The spell can be cast forever and as often as the M-U likes provided the he has access to the scroll. If the scroll is not present the M-U must pass an Intelligence check to recall the intricate details. However, the form of the spell as written in a scroll is always ritualized so it will require hours to be completed so it can never be used in combat. This is a nice way though for a M-U to enchant magical items with special powers.




3. Spells from Magical Items
Magical items can be a source for a M-U to learn spells from.
Learning a spell from a magical item works identically to Learning Spells from Scrolls
but the research time and cost is doubled. If the spell is learned however it can be cast indefinately and can also be used in combat even without the presence of the item.
Magical items that have no charges left are useless a spell learning source.


Examples:
A Ring of Protection might be a source of Shield spell
A Wand of Fire could be a source of a Fireball spell provided is still has charges left

[Deleted]

Is the goal to use the normal spells from the rulebook? I was rereading Stormbringer's magic system which based based (in that version) entirely on binding elementals and demons and commanding them to serve you. Each elemental could fight or be commanded to perform any task appropriate for their powers, so an air elemental could create wind or deliver a message, water elementals could push a boat or drown a fire. That sort of thing. There wasn't a spell list in any sense, it was all DM judgement. Probably just too different to manage when using regular D&D monsters & treasure.

[Red Baron]

Dec 12, 2013 10:16:36 GMT -6 @hedgehobbit said:

Is the goal to use the normal spells from the rulebook? I was rereading Stormbringer's magic system which based based (in that version) entirely on binding elementals and demons and commanding them to serve you. Each elemental could fight or be commanded to perform any task appropriate for their powers, so an air elemental could create wind or deliver a message, water elementals could push a boat or drown a fire. That sort of thing. There wasn't a spell list in any sense, it was all DM judgement. Probably just too different to manage when using regular D&D monsters & treasure.

I'm not sure it would be that hard to run as a dm. The player has to come up with what commands they give to their bound servants, all you have to do is make the call on whether or not it seems reasonable for the being to be able to perform the given task. I think carcosa does a lovely job at this, and there are some serious reprocussions and requirements for accesig the might of ancient outer powers.

I'm increasingly not liking systems of magic at all, as it makes magic feel like a uniform science instead of an amalgamation of different arts deriving their power from a variety of sources.

[legopaidi]

Yes the goal is to use the spells available in the 3LBB

I've thought some more about the Corruption stuff

When a Magic-user casts a spell without having any power/favours left he must make a saving throw vs spell -2 for each successive attempt.(That means if he tries to cast a second spell the penalty would be -4 and so on)

If the save succeeds roll on the minor corruption table. The spell functions normally.

If the save fails the caster has the option of turning the spell against himself and roll on the minor corruption table or the spell functions normally but the caster rolls on the major corruption table.

So I'll just have to make some corruption tables (mainly for brainstorming) I'm sure I'll be winging it during actual play


Some more thoughts on "Learning Spells From Scrolls & Magic Items"

I decided to make Spells from Scrolls ritual magic but at the same time safer (since you don't get to roll for Corruption) for the following reason.
It fits nicely with the "white"-not so evil-mage concept and it also enhances stuff like research, spend time studying magic etc

Spells from magic items work the same way and in my mind I'm "answering" to questions like: "Why can't magic-users use magic-weapons like swords?"
Well, they're sentient and the just "shut down" in the hands of a magic-user in fear he might drain their power away in the form of spells!

[legopaidi]

The corruption stuff would be Sanity/Madness stuff and Mutations, sometimes even in favour of the M-U. As in S&S literature where often the sorcerers are walking a thin line between Power and Self destruction I hope that the PCs will have some kind of incentive to actually try use more magic than they can normally handle.

[Red Baron]

There was a table of d100 random sorcerous mutations somewhere, but you'd have to add all types of mental derangation and degeneration to it. I'll take a look for it when I get home.

[legopaidi]

Dec 12, 2013 12:17:59 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

There was a table of d100 random sorcerous mutations somewhere, but you'd have to add all types of mental derangation and degeneration to it. I'll take a look for it when I get home.

This one?

It's really great!

DCC Rpg has nice corruption tables too

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 11:14:42 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

I'm not sure it would be that hard to run as a dm. The player has to come up with what commands they give to their bound servants, all you have to do is make the call on whether or not it seems reasonable for the being to be able to perform the given task.

My concern would be integrating this type of magic system when the monsters and magic items all use the normal BTB rules.

[Anathemata]

I would probably split them into a couple of different categories. Some spells, like Identify and Read Magic strike me as abilities that magic users should be able to pull off without holding a daemon's ear ransom or striking a bargain with a leprechaun. More powerful spells (like the summoning spells and damage spells) seem more like spells you'd have to get a contract for. The one concern I'd have is that MUs would likely wind up with fewer, more hard-fought spells than they have already, so I'd want to make further provisions in the game to make sure the MU was still useful elsewhere-perhaps they are the only ones who can commune with spirits and talk to magical creatures and the like? That way they start working more as the mystical 'face' of the party and magical researcher. Also, what about creating a low-level spell to summon small imps or something with little packets of interrelated spells? So you could summon the 'Telekinesis Imp' or the 'Ice Imp' and they would have a gaggle of related abilities and roll on the morale table to stick around for a while? You could replicate this at higher levels and summon demons and angels and whatnot to give you some real power, and a real cost...

[legopaidi]

Dec 12, 2013 21:57:00 GMT -6 Anathemata said:

The one concern I'd have is that MUs would likely wind up with fewer, more hard-fought spells than they have already, so I'd want to make further provisions in the game to make sure the MU was still useful elsewhere-perhaps they are the only ones who can commune with spirits and talk to magical creatures and the like?

I was thinking of giving M-U free read magic/ detect magic/find familiar spells and give them the ability to use armor up to chainmail as well all non-magical weapons.

[inkmeister]

RedBaron, I agree with you about magic systems not feeling very magical. It's a problem I've been considering for a couple years now. D&D's system is rock solid for what the game wants to do, but it isn't the most magical feeling system. Most RPG's seem to want to treat magic more like science/technology, which doesn't feel very mysterious or magical. The huge issue is how to balance a more free-form system so that the magic user is useful but not too powerful, and also to make the game work in such a way that the magic user isn't totally dependent on the whim of the referee. The closest I've come to is to make magic users NPC's only, so that their powers don't need to be consistent, and never need be predictable, but on the negative side, this nukes the possibility of PC's getting to enjoy being sorcerers and the like.

As to the OP's system, it sounds intriguing. I'm not sure I can offer help or critique, but like I said, I'm interested in how it might play out. I do like the idea of corruption, generally ,and bargaining with outer powers. Very cool, very sword and sorcery. I could see, too, where this sort of system would give lots of interesting hooks to players, not only to magic users who would be bargaining and doing some of the bidding of outer beings, but also non-magic using types who wanted to gain the favor of other magic users or outer-beings.

[inkmeister]

As to basic powers of the magic user, like reading magic and identifying items: part of me feels like that sort of stuff should be automatic to the magic user. It feels somehow very nitpickety to say that a person has to have a spell just to be able to read other spells. It feels to me that magic users should be able to detect magic, at least on a x/6 chance. I would say this is even more the case in a system that takes away the consistent, powerful magic system of btb D&D.

[jeff]

How about a system where there are no "inherent" spells. Magic Users must use items for spellcasting. These can be items acquired through pacts or items scavenged from dead monsters. Almost all items have a finite number of uses, or charges.

For example:

Unicorn horns can be used to teleport, each time expending a charge. They can also be used to detect evil. This power does not expend a charge, but at least 1 charge must be present to use this power and the MU must concentrate for one round while holding the unicorn horn in order to do it.

A pact with a demon could involve the demon cutting off the hand of MU, then grafting on one of his own hands (which he re-grows, of course). The new demonic hand gives vampiric touch (permanently) as well as the nails from the fingers shoot out as magic missiles (max of 5 per day...or 4 if the demon hand only has 4 fingers). The hand can also detect magic and identify with a touch and makes the caster immune to the mind-controlling effects of a chaotic sword. On the other hand, the demon is always whispering in the PCs ear, trying to get the PC to do his bidding and bring about the demon's designs.

Think of Radagast in the recent Hobbit movie where he used some sort of stone and incantation to heal the sick hedgehog (extract the evil out it seems). That could be a special stone, magical in nature, not necessarily gained from a pact or defeating a monster though. Maybe the DM comes up with another way of having magic items that are usable only by MUs and are "charge" based. (btw...didn't like the movie all that much...but I thought the way they did Radagast was pretty cool).



This gives the DM complete control over magic, which he can make unique per magic user encountered...but also gives the PC a solid understanding of what each item he has can accomplish. It has a very non-D&D feel to it as well, but you could easily emulate D&D style magic if you wished (but why? seriously...)

If I were to use something like this, I would give MUs a base 2 in 6 chance of detecting magical items upon inspection. I'd also allow them to use magical swords and other single handed weapons...and staffs. Of course, they would probably begin play with such.

[Porphyre]

What you describe here seems to me very similar of what the AD&D rules about material components would look like if you could find a DM willing to enforce them (personally, I never found one ).

[jeff]

Dec 13, 2013 15:11:17 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

What you describe here seems to me very similar of what the AD&D rules about material components would look like if you could find a DM willing to enforce them (personally, I never found one ).

Material components in AD&D are non-magical pieces of equipment. They are consumed by the casting. I'm not suggesting anything of the sort.


What I am suggesting are magic items instead of spells.

Once again, on the Radagast example. It all depends on the way you see it. You could look at it as Radagast knew a spell but needed the stone as a reagent. That's the D&D way of thinking. Or, you could look at it as the stone has special powers and Radagast simply needed to use the proper incantation to release the powers. That's more of what I am suggesting.


Of course, you could still keep spells as part of the whole she-bang...but that really makes things overpowered and then you have the rigmarole of selecting your daily spells and going on quests to find spellbooks. Basically, the same as you've been doing it all along, which is pretty utilitarian in nature and not at all fantastic and interesting.

[Red Baron]

This solution fits perfectly with the source material. Elric tends to get magical flying ships or vampiric swords when he makes pacts with the gods, the gods of chaos and elementals don't have the time to cast petty spells for him. This solution doesn't exclude the possibility of forcing demons into servitude; in fact it offers new means of doing this, such as Cugel's demon summoning ring or Aladdin's lamp and ring.

This system makes spells limited, but accumulable, resources

It gives you, the dm, the opportunity to give players a finite amount of powerful, obscure spells, that they may not have otherwise come into contact with or ever decide it was worth their time to memorize. This system encourages creative new uses for spells.

It encourages players to more carefully study even mundane seeming items. You can present magical items in weird innovative forms, and can finally use the malignant artifact effects at the back of the dmg as side effects of using more powerful spells (this ties back to the OP's wish for corruption). This makes the possibilities for magic in the game much more varied. Perhaps you could even find a magic item that was a spell tome requiring it to be read aloud or memorized in order for the spell to work.

An excellent suggestion Ureial. I've been thinking about merging magic items only for spells and weird powers with Geoffrey's rituals for binding greater beings or communing with them. You end up with Howard-like sorcerors who perform rituals to their gods, and wear little trinkets and fetishes which possess unique magic powers.

[Red Baron]

It also gives you a bit of leniency with people taking up wizardry. Anyone can do it, but they are likely to blow themselves up, or get eaten by a big bad demon before they accumulate enough power to be able to manage such arts. Sauron and Gorice XII both meet their downfall due to overconfidence in their sorcerous arts. Iconocu is first taken over by an alien he keeps, and is finally killed by the scale monster he summons from the overworld.

Although sorcery brings tremendous power, it might be safer for adventurers to make a living hitting things with a club and not dabble in the unknown.

[inkmeister]

Nice comments Urieal and RedBaron, I've been thinking along these lines too. Could blend well with Searchers of the Unknown style D&D and feels more like most of the literature. The problem is it does put more of the magic users power in the hands of the referee, which might really annoy some people. I'd play that game though.

[Red Baron]

Off the top of my head (And now inserted into my rules)

Example Sorcerous Items
Alien ray pistol (50 charges)
Mahogany and twine bracelet conjuring The Fetor of the Depths
Dream-walker paste
Gas mask filter (6 hours)
Mind-cleansing inhalant
Rod of vegetative discourse (12 charges)
Potion of transmute water to lead
Spyglass
Stillsuit
Stone Elder seal
Tome of gaseous form

[jeff]

I was about to start writing out which monsters gave which powers but then I realized what makes magic mundane.

It's the codification of magic that, in my mind, makes it mundane. When you write out a specific spell that is constant and consistent among everyone/everything in the game world...then that's pretty blase. The fact that MUs go and find the same spells that other MUs have in their spellbook...just so they can have the same effect is, by very concept, just plain boring. Sure, you can find new and interesting venues for that fireball spell...but so can anyone else who finds your spellbook or knows fireball. It doesn't make you unique or interesting. There's a reason almost all 1st level MUs take or have sleep in their spellbook. They know it's effects and they are standardized (and better than many other 1st level spells)...i.e...kinda boring.

If all my players know and understand that unicorn horns allow them to teleport, then you suddenly create a market for unicorn horns where demand is high and, eventually, supply becomes ridiculously low (think ivory). It's also pretty boring. You could build some story arcs around it...but that will wear out eventually.

A much cooler approach:
The dark sorcerer's tower, a solid granite building with no windows or doors, can only be accessed by means of teleportation. The party has heard from a local wise man that deep within the Shadamar forest there is a glade known as the mooncrest. The glade is watched over by a unicorn, whose horn has magical powers. Take a smooth stone from the mouth of the river Horshach to the unicorn and he may be able to grant you the means by which to enter into the tower.

Now teleport isn't simply a spell that any old wizard can learn...or worse...any old wizard can cast from a scroll. Instead, it is a special power that can be granted by magical creatures. Way better than vanilla wizards. Also, it lets the DM determine how magic works for each instance instead of a set of predefined rules. Also, it gives purpose and reason for many creatures in the game world.


tl;dr?
Don't codify your magic with specific spells or monster x grants ability y. That's just boring. Instead, make it all unique and interesting by avoiding codification except when the DM delivers the ability to the PC.

Just my 0.02

[legopaidi]

Dec 15, 2013 13:14:01 GMT -6 jeff said:

tl;dr?
Don't codify your magic with specific spells or monster x grants ability y. That's just boring. Instead, make it all unique and interesting by avoiding codification except when the DM delivers the ability to the PC.

Just my 0.02

Ofcourse! I completely agree and was my thinking all along! If every single Unicorn could grant teleportation or every single goblin could grant let's say "infravision" then it's really nothing special. However, making some of these creatures a potential source of spells is another matter altogether.
It can also be tied to the spellcaster level for making learning magic extra-difficult. Using the "spells known" tables it could take a higher level magic-user to learn Teleport from said Unicorn whereas a starting wizard's apprentice could not. (I think this last part has already been mentioned in the non-vancian thread!)

[jeff]

Another thing you could do with magic items is drop the cleric class completely.

Holy symbols could be magic items that grant the ability to turn undead and other cleric-style spells. Perhaps the holy symbol could be used to purify food & drink or to determine the value of jewels (for a deity of trade and commerce). Lots of different options there to fill in the blanks if you remove the cleric class from your game.

[Deleted]

Dec 15, 2013 13:14:01 GMT -6 jeff said:

Don't codify your magic with specific spells or monster x grants ability y. That's just boring. Instead, make it all unique and interesting by avoiding codification except when the DM delivers the ability to the PC.

Making an item rare or hard to find [even interesting to find] doesn't actually make that item interesting itself. Even after an epic quest to find a Light spell, the Light spell still sucks. It doesn't matter if an item or spell is rare or unique, it only matters if the party has the thing or not. The party might have the only magic sword in the entire game universe, but if it's a +1 sword, then it is still insignificant.

The best option for spells is to not have a list and, instead, make sure that every (or almost every) spell they find or encounter is different or unexpected; a Light spell that creates a glowing hummingbird the caster can move around, a fly spell that causes wings to sprout on the caster, a fireball that lets the caster breath fire, a Hold Portal that can open as well as close doors etc.

[Red Baron]

Dec 17, 2013 12:59:29 GMT -6 jeff said:

Another thing you could do with magic items is drop the cleric class completely.

Holy symbols could be magic items that grant the ability to turn undead and other cleric-style spells. Perhaps the holy symbol could be used to purify food & drink or to determine the value of jewels (for a deity of trade and commerce). Lots of different options there to fill in the blanks if you remove the cleric class from your game.

Removig the cleric was assumed.

There are no holy symbols, but crosses can turn vampires.

The original rules with wolfbane, garlic, and an emphasis on silver or cold iron weapons, seem to encourage tackling the undead and demons in several traditional folklore inspired ways, instead of having the cleric just bliw them up.