Non-Vancian Magic Possibilities

[inkmeister]

Ok, relax for a second; I'm not one of the multitudes who hates Vancian magic and complains about it endlessly, and so that is not what this thread is about either. I love Vancian magic. I've just recently begun to read the Dying Earth stuff and so far it may be my favorite sword and sorcery fiction. Vancian magic rocks.

That said, I've enjoyed Howard's Conan stories, Moorcock's Elric stories, some H.P. Lovecraft, and some other stuff (admittedly, compared to most everyone here, I'm very poorly versed in S&S fiction), and part of me wonders what it might look like if D&D had embraced another authors vision of magic. So this thread is really just meant to consider this possibility; it's a thought experiment. What would Moorcockian magic look like, or Howardian magic? Or some mashup? What other possibilities come to mind for some of you folks, and how do you think it would impact the gameplay of D&D?

The magic of the Elric stories seems to extremely heavily lean towards summoning other-worldly beings/spirits, and there often seems to be a level of bargaining involved with these spirits; they aren't merely commanded and they aren't necessarily friendly to the summoner. I don't see the kind of utilitarian magic of Vance.

And so forth. Discussion and thoughts welcomed and appreciated.

[Red Baron]

Vancian magic requires a grotesque deformation of the brain "by means of stringent exercise"(Mazirian the magician... I think) and drugs. If a sorcerer's brain is warped beyond the point where they can hold four or so spells (half a dozen being the upper limit it would seem), than they are doing serious damage to themselves by playing with their own biology and will most likely end up as a "mad wizard", building subterranean labyrinths beneath their manses (which of course they fill with giant vats for growing their monstrosities and shrines to the frog gods they worship).

With only a few spells at their command, most sorcerers need to rely on wits, magical devices, swordplay, and weird planar beings. Vance's wizards use all of these more extensively than they do their spells. There should be no difference in magic between Moorcock and Howard, or most early swords and sorcery for that matter. Sorcerers take anything than can be conceivably called magic and use it to augment their image.
they broker pacts with weird beings from space that, like Arioch, who present themselves as overwhelmingly beautiful and speak gently and soothingly, despite their incomprehensible alien intentions. Sorcerers use "technology" like the poison lotus dust in tower of the elephant, or wear elaborate ornamental fetishes to summon demonic efriti to do their bidding.

Vance doesn't use vancian magic, he uses S&S magic. Magic is inconsistent. If a spell or item looks fun, toss it in and don't worry too much about the explanation.

[archersix]

The 'Vancian' system works in D&D mainly as game balance. It gives Majic Users stuff to do without being overpowering.
Sadly, a Howardian system wouldn't be fun for a PC MU. No Fireballs or Majic missles. And you'd need to arrange a meeting with a demon or other-worldly creature to get some of that sweet sweet majic.

[Porphyre]

The recent "Rituals" could be something approaching: spells that need time and paraphernalia to cast , and are not of the "fire-and-forget" variety. It works better with some high level spells like Raise dead, Summon weather, etc.

[Red Baron]

Oct 19, 2013 18:26:48 GMT -6 archersix said:

Sadly, a Howardian system wouldn't be fun for a PC MU.
you'd need to arrange a meeting with a demon or other-worldly creature to get some of that sweet sweet majic.

...And why would that not be completely awesome?

[cleverkobold]

Oct 20, 2013 18:53:22 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Oct 19, 2013 18:26:48 GMT -6 archersix said:

Sadly, a Howardian system wouldn't be fun for a PC MU.
you'd need to arrange a meeting with a demon or other-worldly creature to get some of that sweet sweet majic.

...And why would that not be completely awesome?

I see where you are both coming from. My players would definitely not find this type of magic fun to play; but on the other hand, whenever I actually get around to playing, this is something I would love.

[archersix]

Oh, it would be vast amounts of fun to play. The sucky part would be having to dial up the Elephant God's tower to cast detect Majic.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 20, 2013 19:26:11 GMT -6 archersix said:

Oh, it would be vast amounts of fun to play. The sucky part would be having to dial up the Elephant God's tower to cast detect Majic.

You could make petty magics (read magic, detect magic, comprehend languages, etc.) class features of the magic user. Or else these functions could be associated with trivial magic-items that m-u's begin with..?

[coffee]

This is similar to something I've been thinking of lately.

A lot of peoples the world over have thought that anything that happens must have a direct source, i.e.; someone or something doing it. Fairies in the garden making the flowers bloom, gnomes underground doing whatever they do.

Remember, Elric didn't go to Arioch straightaway. In his earliest stories (that is, the stories earliest in his timeline, not necessarily the first stories Moorcock wrote) he took advantage of ancient pacts his people made with the King of the Sea or whoever (which saved him from drowning), etc.

So, what if magic works in a similar way in a game? You might start off with a small amount of 'control' or 'favor' you can use with one such type of creature/demon/whatever, and be able to use this to create certain effects. (This could also go along with the 'elemental' forces, such as air, water, etc.)

This could duplicate known spells: Shield, for instance, would be easy for an air sprite. And at higher levels, you'd be better at controlling them, so you could get levitate and fly, for instance. And at even higher levels (or other mechanism I haven't yet worked out), you could make similar arrangements with other spirits/sprites/demons/whatever. This could be set, like spell progression, or it could be roleplayed. (A whole quest just to get the Magic-User in a position to meet the sea-sprites, for instance.)

You can see here that Charisma would be important.

Now, this would require a clever player and a willing DM. But it could totally be done. This would also add a certain animist flavor to your world, so it wouldn't be another cookie-cutter quasi-medieval world.

Anyway, that's a first draft. Inkmeister, what do you think of this? How about the rest of you?

[kesher]

I think it'd be awesome. And you're right, you could totally use the spell-list as it is. You could use spell level to determine how difficult it was going to be to convince the spirit/elemental to do what you wanted, with maybe three-tier results: You get what you want; you get what you want, but only by promising something else to the spirit/elemental; you get refused.

[inkmeister]

I am enjoying the conversation. I always enjoy what RedBaron has to say - you are a creative one indeed. And I like your ideas a lot too, Coffee.

I do like the idea of bargaining with other-worldly beings/elementals/spirits, etc. In some sense this makes the magic user a bit more like a cleric (Which I would probably dispose of, as usual).

I like the idea that magic using types would need to try to learn about various other-worldly/outer beings in order to know how to gain leverage with them. In other words, contacting an alien power for a favor might be a really bad idea unless you know 1) how to do it safely, 2) have something that the being in question is interested in or afraid of in order to coerce/convince the being to do what you want.

In a recent experimental game, a player of mine interacted with an alter to some outer-god, and ended up empowered by the process, but also "contaminated" such that his eyes turned completely black and he now exudes an otherworldly aura that causes fear and distrust among other people. I like this kind of stuff... dark pacts, paying a dear price, etc, to gain power.

I do think that D&D as we know it runs better if magic types do have some kind of "routine" power they can call on from time to time, or otherwise you have to go Geoffrey's way and have sorcerers that aren't really functionally different than fighters.

Just thoughts.

I am enjoying the conversation, please keep throwing ideas into the pot, all.

[archersix]

I'm also enjoying this greatly. Very neat ideas all around.

[cooper]

A magic user who's only path to magic is convinces any fey or extra-planar creature to be his henchman, can call upon these henchman at any moment. The wizard has full use of the allies' magical powers as if they were his own. The number of times any ally or servitor may be used is equal to the difference between the wizards level and the creatures HD and then the creature is free of its obligation.

Example: the wizard Darjeeling has a charisma of 7 and therefore can have up to 3 servitors. In his travels he currently has cajoled, or subjugated a dryad, an invisible stalker, and an efreet.

Dryads have 2 HD so Darjeeling can command the dryad for a total of 9 requests (dryads have a charm person spell at their command). The efreet having 10 HD has only agreed to serve the wizard for a single task. This may be to create a wall of fire, to engage someone in combat, or carry anything up to 10,000gp in weight. The invisible stalker will serve for 3 tasks.

Basically, Darjeeling has charm person x9, teleport x3, and either telekenisis or wall of fire x1.

This can be considered "vancian" because this is how Rhialto the marvelous uses magic (sandestines and daihiks). This becomes quite useful when demons or devils are pressed into service...or gods..

The spirits are invisible unless otherwise told to materialize. Magic users have full use of all magic items, swords as well as wands and staves, scrolls and armor (though most prefer magical robes)

[flightcommander]

Perhaps use the reaction table to determine results, with rolls modified as usual by Charisma.

This still sounds Vancian in a way, but more Rhialto than Cugel. What about this:

1. Magic-users cast spells through the agency of magical beings they control. These "sandestins" might be elementals, demons, faeries, weird fetishes, or what have you. An individual magic-user might control, at maximum, one such being per Level. A magic-user starts with one; acquiring additional sandestins is left as an exercise for the reader. The DM secretly rolls a Loyalty score for each sandestin, modified by the magic-user's Charisma. Sandestins are otherworldly beings and cannot be harmed in the normal course of events.
2. A magic-user has a number of spell points per day equal to the sum of spell-levels they are able to cast. Thus, a Medium (Level 1) has but one spell point, while a Conjurer (Level 3) has four, and an Enchanter (Level 7), ten spell points!
3. A magic-user can cast any spell known to them. The spell's level is subtracted from their spell points. Thus, a Conjurer might stumble upon a scroll of Fireball, copy it into his spellbooks (paying the appropriate sum in gold pieces and time), and cast it for 3 of his 4 spell points.
4. To cast any spell, assuming the magic-user has enough spell points to cast a given spell, the player selects a sandestin to affect the spell and the DM rolls 2d6 modified by the morale bonus given for that sandestin's loyalty. For example, a sandestin with a loyalty of 14 will give a +1 bonus to the roll. Consult the following table, derived from the reaction table:

Roll	Result
2	Sandestin politely declines to affect chosen spell. Try again next round at -1 to roll on this table, cumulative. Alternately, pick another sandestin if available, but begin with a -1 penalty due to loss of face.
3—5	Sandestin affects spell but at an additional cost of one spell point. If the total cost exceeds available spell points, the spell will still be cast, but the sandestin's loyalty will be reduced by 3 points, effective immediately, and noted by the sandestin aloud and in the most humiliating terms.
6—8	Sandestin affects spell normally, at usual spell point cost. Consider yourself lucky.
9—11	Sandestin in a generous mood, affects spell at -1 to spell point cost. A 1st-level spell is thus free.
12	Sandestin overawed by magic-user's presence, casts spell for -3 spell point cost. Spells up to 3rd level are thus free.

Note that, per the rules, loyalty is to be periodically re-rolled — a magic-user must always be alert to changes in his sandestins' temperament and demeanor!

I just pulled this out of my hat so it probably makes no sense.

[snorri]

I had system like that in my Cloak & daggers rules for LL for spells and ritual design : sites.google.com/site/wizardinabottle/cloaksanddagers

By the way, I discover the word Sandestin is not a french translation, but the original Vancian word. In french, the meaning is clearer, as it sounds Sans-Destinn$, ie. Without a fate.

[Red Baron]

Oct 22, 2013 0:27:46 GMT -6 cooper said:

Example: the wizard Darjeeling has a charisma of 7 and therefore can have up to 3 servitors. In his travels he currently has cajoled, or subjugated a dryad, an invisible stalker, and an efreet.

Dryads have 2 HD so Darjeeling can command the dryad for a total of 9 requests (dryads have a charm person spell at their command). The efreet having 10 HD has only agreed to serve the wizard for a single task. This may be to create a wall of fire, to engage someone in combat, or carry anything up to 10,000gp in weight. The invisible stalker will serve for 3 tasks.

Basically, Darjeeling has charm person x9, teleport x3, and either telekenisis or wall of fire x1.

That's actually brilliant.

Draw up a quick chainmail spell success table like flightcommander's (to see if the wizard's servant is entangled elsewhere and can't immediately answer their liege's summons) and you've got yourself a magic system.

This also gives items like efreeti bottles and elemental braziers a place in your game, and the demons section of the monster manual is suddenly a valuable resource.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 22, 2013 0:27:46 GMT -6 cooper said:

Example: the wizard Darjeeling has a charisma of 7 and therefore can have up to 3 servitors. In his travels he currently has cajoled, or subjugated a dryad, an invisible stalker, and an efreet.

Dryads have 2 HD so Darjeeling can command the dryad for a total of 9 requests (dryads have a charm person spell at their command). The efreet having 10 HD has only agreed to serve the wizard for a single task. This may be to create a wall of fire, to engage someone in combat, or carry anything up to 10,000gp in weight. The invisible stalker will serve for 3 tasks.

Basically, Darjeeling has charm person x9, teleport x3, and either telekenisis or wall of fire x1.

The Invisible Stalker is also a faultless tracker and can return to its null dimension, so its repertoire might also include a "conjure person"-type effect, as well as a "dimension gate"-type effect.

The Efreeti could also create phantasms, food, and quasi real swords and gold, as per the description given for Djinn.


I see an immediate need for a list of spell-like powers attributed to monsters...

[bestialwarlust]

Oct 22, 2013 0:27:46 GMT -6 cooper said:

A magic user who's only path to magic is convinces any fey or extra-planar creature to be his henchman, can call upon these henchman at any moment. The wizard has full use of the allies' magical powers as if they were his own. The number of times any ally or servitor may be used is equal to the difference between the wizards level and the creatures HD and then the creature is free of its obligation.

Example: the wizard Darjeeling has a charisma of 7 and therefore can have up to 3 servitors. In his travels he currently has cajoled, or subjugated a dryad, an invisible stalker, and an efreet.

Dryads have 2 HD so Darjeeling can command the dryad for a total of 9 requests (dryads have a charm person spell at their command). The efreet having 10 HD has only agreed to serve the wizard for a single task. This may be to create a wall of fire, to engage someone in combat, or carry anything up to 10,000gp in weight. The invisible stalker will serve for 3 tasks.

Basically, Darjeeling has charm person x9, teleport x3, and either telekenisis or wall of fire x1.

This can be considered "vancian" because this is how Rhialto the marvelous uses magic (sandestines and daihiks). This becomes quite useful when demons or devils are pressed into service...or gods..

The spirits are invisible unless otherwise told to materialize. Magic users have full use of all magic items, swords as well as wands and staves, scrolls and armor (though most prefer magical robes)

Cool idea consider it stolen I've been toying with something similar for a "sorcerer" but what would a low level 1 or 2nd level be able to summon and cajole?

[coffee]

You get to create whole sub-orders of beings, capable of being controlled by low level sorcerers. The kobolds of the lower planes, if you will.

[bestialwarlust]

Oct 23, 2013 8:24:06 GMT -6 coffee said:

You get to create whole sub-orders of beings, capable of being controlled by low level sorcerers. The kobolds of the lower planes, if you will.

Working on that now going through gods, demo-gods and heroes to steal more

[Red Baron]

Oct 23, 2013 0:11:00 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

I see an immediate need for a list of spell-like powers attributed to monsters...

A work in progress. Ill edit it up nice and neat when its done

unicorn: dimmension door, sense evil
Nixie: dispell magic, charm person
Dryad: charm person, (+tree door druid spell?)
Invisible stalker: dispel magic (+perform task for magic user)
Air elementals: whirlwind sweeping (+gust of wind, gaseous form, etc?)
earth elememtals:batering ram (+earthquake?)
Pixie: see chainmail
Wraith: level drain
Gorgon: cloud petrification
djin: create food&drink, minor creation, improved phantasmal force, whirlwind, invisibility, gaseous form
Efreet: djin + wall of fire
titans: "limited magical abilities"

And thats just about all of m&t. I'll take a look at elritch wizardry, chainmail, and the mm&ff later.

[cooper]

but what would a low level 1 or 2nd level be able to summon and cajole?

My idea isn't that they can summon them, but the wizard has to do as the books describe as what's required to acquire "exceptional followers". Aka they have to get a favorable reaction score or defeat them in combat--the only way to get spells is to dominate these entities.

Now, scrolls of the spell introduced in the shrine of tomohacan and put into ad&d (cacodaemon, summon monster, spirit wrack, true name, etc) could all be used to arrange subjugation of these creatures.

Of course these are just my ideas.

Edit: another thought. Take the spell casting chart from magic-users and this the HD of servitor instead of spell level. So a 7th level Mage with 4/3/3/2 can have 4 favors from a 1HD creature, 3 favors from 2HD and 3HD and 2 favors from a 4HD creature.

[talysman]

I did two different things along the lines of the "barter with spirits" approach to magic. One was the Cleric Without Spells, which I think everyone has seen by now. Basically, I just treated the spell level of the miracle called for as the hit dice of some undead creature and used the Turn Undead roll. The model I was working on was that the cleric's strength of faith enabled them to demand a service from nameless spirits. I adapted that to a couple other magical types, like a Beast Master that could evoke animal powers by treating them as spell equivalents to find their level.

The one that was closer to what Cooper, etc. are talking about was the Sorcerer, which is based on a bunch of posts about a more S&S brand of magic that I wrote to please Dan Buter. Although it's presented as a class, the assumption I make here is that anyone could learn a sorcery spell, but sorcerers have a slight advantage when dealing with supernatural beings. The mechanics used are basically a spell-point system without fixed spell points: roll a number of dice equal to spell level and halve the result for the cost of the spell, caster rolls some dice based on pacts with spirits/demons, rare herbs, and bloodletting; if the player's result is more than the power needed, the spell works. Where I diverge from Cooper's approach, though, is that Charisma or friendship is not involved; the sorcerer has to promise something, usually to destroy something, and failure to keep that promise results in Bad Stuff.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 23, 2013 6:51:17 GMT -6 bestialwarlust said:

but what would a low level 1 or 2nd level be able to summon and cajole?

I was thinking about this too. There are limited number of magical types for 1st and 2nd level M-Us to coerce, so to extend their number (and the variety of spells available), the obvious thing would be to purpose build a pantheon of imps and magic squirrels for low level M-Us to corral. But do we really want this? Sorcerous bindings and exorcisms involving Papa Smurf don't seem quite as interesting as dealings with "proper" monsters.

So what then?

Along with the Efreeti and the Balrog and all the other magic-using sorts, I wonder whether we could treat their echoes, shadows, spirits, etc., as independent "creatures" that could be hijacked by M-Us? There "pseudo-creatures" could comprise some small fraction of the monster's overall being; an Echo might be one tenth part of the monster, a Shadow one fifth part of it, a Spirit one third part of it, and so on.

Thus, an Earth Elemental's Shadow (1, 2, or 3 HD) could be bound to serve. As could a Werewolf's Spirit (1 HD), or a Balrog's Echo (1 HD), and so on.

Binding these lesser "creatures" into service would detract something meaningful from the original monster itself, and it would ever be bent upon getting that "something" back. E.g., A Balrog's Shadow might be a 2 HD thing, but if a M-U bound one into service there would always be a Balrog without a shadow out there on the lookout for him...

Worth thinking about maybe

[Red Baron]

A sorceror's first servant is actually more of a friend - his familiar.

Familiars help a wizard grasp the idea of using the powers of their servants (nightvision for owls for example) and giving them tasks (go fly around that corner and tell me what you see).


Pseudodragons and quasits certainly seem in line with magical spiritual entities.

[bestialwarlust]

Oct 23, 2013 15:52:14 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Oct 23, 2013 6:51:17 GMT -6 bestialwarlust said:

but what would a low level 1 or 2nd level be able to summon and cajole?

I was thinking about this too. There are limited number of magical types for 1st and 2nd level M-Us to coerce, so to extend their number (and the variety of spells available), the obvious thing would be to purpose build a pantheon of imps and magic squirrels for low level M-Us to corral. But do we really want this? Sorcerous bindings and exorcisms involving Papa Smurf don't seem quite as interesting as dealings with "proper" monsters.

So what then?

Along with the Efreeti and the Balrog and all the other magic-using sorts, I wonder whether we could treat their echoes, shadows, spirits, etc., as independent "creatures" that could be hijacked by M-Us? There "pseudo-creatures" could comprise some small fraction of the monster's overall being; an Echo might be one tenth part of the monster, a Shadow one fifth part of it, a Spirit one third part of it, and so on.

Thus, an Earth Elemental's Shadow (1, 2, or 3 HD) could be bound to serve. As could a Werewolf's Spirit (1 HD), or a Balrog's Echo (1 HD), and so on.

Binding these lesser "creatures" into service would detract something meaningful from the original monster itself, and it would ever be bent upon getting that "something" back. E.g., A Balrog's Shadow might be a 2 HD thing, but if a M-U bound one into service there would always be a Balrog without a shadow out there on the lookout for him...

Worth thinking about maybe

I like that I was coming up with something like this

Creature HD Powers
Morphean 1 Sleep – Minor demon imp of dreams and nightmares. A blackish mist fills the the area of effect. This does not impede sight in anyway.


The Fae Archer 1 Magic Missile – A demonic imp that fires “elf-shot” from it's bow


The Lucifugeous 1 Light – A small imp that manifests as a ball of light.


Imp Scribe 1 Read Languages – A small scholarly looking fiend that whispers
the translated words into the casters ear.

Whisperer
of Enticements 2 Charm Person – dark being of bargains and deals


Spider of
Latash 2 Knock – summons a fist-sized crab-like spider that uses it's legs
to dismantle and defeat any lock


Karthakian
Beast of burden 1 Floating Disk – summons a foul creature from the lower planes
to the sorcerer it appears as a short, squat six-legged rotting bull with a
flat and broad back.


Imp of
Abjuration 3 Dispel Magic – a small cloaked and hooded being that severs magical
threads with it's twin daggers

[Red Baron]

The whole point is to make magic more magical and unordered. If you're just goig to replace every single spell with a imp equivilant then I'd just stick to straight up vancian casting.

As in vance's magic not d&d's "vancian" magic.

[bestialwarlust]

Oct 23, 2013 21:19:09 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

The whole point is to make magic more magical and unordered. If you're just goig to replace every single spell with a imp equivilant then I'd just stick to straight up vancian casting.

As in vance's magic not d&d's "vancian" magic.

Agreed I was throwing something out to get my creativity going. But I also don't want to use only creatures in the M&T. I'd rather make up creatures that they have no clear idea on what they really are or can do.

[Red Baron]

Ok. Gotcha.

But until yesterday, I also had no idea that unicorns teleport. M&T has a few suprises left.

[waysoftheearth]

Oct 23, 2013 11:39:15 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

A work in progress. Ill edit it up nice and neat when its done

unicorn: dimmension door, sense evil
Nixie: dispell magic, charm person
Dryad: charm person, (+tree door druid spell?)
Invisible stalker: dispel magic (+perform task for magic user)
Air elementals: whirlwind sweeping (+gust of wind, gaseous form, etc?)
earth elememtals:batering ram (+earthquake?)
Pixie: see chainmail
Wraith: level drain
Gorgon: cloud petrification
djin: create food&drink, minor creation, improved phantasmal force, whirlwind, invisibility, gaseous form
Efreet: djin + wall of fire
titans: "limited magical abilities"

And thats just about all of m&t. I'll take a look at elritch wizardry, chainmail, and the mm&ff later.

Nice... what about these too?


Mermen: water breathing
Goblins: infravision
Hobgoblin/gnoll: improved morale (perhaps equivilent to a bless)
Troll: regeneration (perhaps cure light wounds?)
Giant: artillery strike
Skeleton/zombie: protection from normal missiles
Ghoul: paralysis
Wights: weakness
Wraith: improved morale for chaotics, energy drain
Mummy: Cause disease
Spectres: Etherealness, energy drain
Vampires: Charm, gaseous form, polymorph, regeneration, conjure bats/wolves,
Basilisk/cockatrice/medusa: flesh to stone
Gorgon: petrification cloud
Chimera: fire breathing
Wyvern: poison
Dragons: invulnerability to acid/fire/lightning/poison
Gargoyles: invulnerability to normal weapons
Lycanthropes: polymorph
Minotaurs: fearlessness (immune to morale checks)
Unicorns: magic resistance, detect invisible/true seeing, dimension door
Nixie: water breathing, charm
Pixie: invisibility, fly
Dryad: Charm person, exact knowledge of forest
Gnomes/dwarves: darkvision
Elves: near invisibilty/silence, move and fire bows
Treants: command trees, invulnerability to normal weapons, protection from normal missiles
Invis Stalker: Invisibility, faultless tracking, move to null dimension, fly?
Air Elem: fly, whirlwind
Earth Elem: battery, move earth?
Fire Elem: immolate, wall of fire? fireball?
Water Elem: water breathing? swim?
Djinn: fly, create food and water, create goods, phantasmal force, whirlwind, gaseous form, invisibility
Efreet: fly, create food and water, create goods, phantasmal force, wall of fire, incendiary