How big are your dragons

[bestialwarlust]

As OD&D dragons aren't the steroid monstrosities they became in latter editions. I'm curious to see what's the biggest sized dragon in your game? do you break the sizes down by age category? what about the different types do you make them different sizes or are they all roughly the same size no matter the type?

[Azafuse]

It depends.

If dragons are panda-style creatures on the verge of the extinction I make them grow up to about 20ft tall, with age giving them just strength in terms of HDs.

Otherwise, if dragons are fertile pornstars and PCs could ride them, then a scaled beast can usually grow up to 30-40ft.

[talysman]

Haven't really put a number on it, but I figure they are about whale-sized, but with thinner, elongated body shapes. Small dragons might be orca-sized. Large dragons about twice that.

[geoffrey]

In terms of an upper limit, I like to consider the heights of giants in M&T:

Hill giants (8 HD) are 12' tall.
Stone giants (9 HD) are 15' tall.
Frost giants (10+1 HD) are 18' tall.
Fire giants (11+3 HD) are 12' tall.
Cloud giants are (12+2 HD) 20' tall.

Using the above heights as a gauge of dragon length (by comparing hit dice), we get the following maximum lengths:

White dragons (5-7 HD): less than 12' long
Black dragons (6-8 HD): 12' long
Green dragons (7-9 HD): 15' long
Blue dragons (8-10 HD): 18' long
Red dragons (9-11 HD): 18' long
Golden dragons (10-12 HD): 20' long

I myself prefer to think of dragons as even smaller. Remember the purple worm (15 HD, 56 hp) under the bed in the scullery maid's room in Tegel Manor? Even doubled-over, that purple worm couldn't have been more than 12' long. That's how long I imagine even the largest dragons (i. e., 12 HD golden dragons) to be. Less mighty dragons I imagine even smaller, small enough to look like the dragon slain by St. George in the picture above.

Quick experiment: I have a tape measure stretched out to 12' on my living room floor right now. It's longer than you might think. I'm imagining a dragon that long. That would scare the devil out of me! It's big enough that 8 men (3 on a side, 1 at the head, and 1 at the tail) could attack it at once.

[Porphyre]

They fit in a 10'-wide corridor. All right.

[strangebrew]

I'd say the body/trunk/torso would be about the size of that of a large horse (like a Clydesdale).

[kent]

I think it is a failure of imagination when writers or DMs use size as a quick and dirty means to evoke power and awe. In the past I have made demon familiars powerful in inverse proportion to their size from human-sized the least powerful to fly-sized the most. Human wizards don't grow in size as they attain spells and it would be daft if they did. Dragons are not powerful because of the size of their jaws, they are not large crocodiles, they are strange magical beings. Spiders and scorpions frighten us in spite of their size - I also think it is a mistake here to make spiders more dangerous in proportion to their size. Its lazy.

Tolkien did seem to associate size with dragon power but I think he still kept sizes modest. My impression of the Tolkien dragons is that they long and thin worms or snakes and not so much the chunky dinosaurs we tend to see painted.

I made the same point about Tolkien's Balrog, starting a thread on DF a while back:
www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46049

[geoffrey]

Kent, you obviously haven't been to Texas. Everyone knows that balrogs are at least 80' tall.

[kent]

Yeah, in Texas and in a Jackson movie an ogre roars like this, "Roar, ROAR!!' but a Balrog goes,
"RRRRRRROOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!"
cos he's real big and he knows all the best wrestler poses.

[bestialwarlust]

"I'm a monster Raaaawwr!"

[Lord Cias]

I base dragon size on size category (of course) and age so that they range anywhere from 3' long (small hatchling) to 40' long (huge ancient). Type does not affect size, so an average adult white dragon is the same size as an average adult red dragon.

First I give each size category a base length (includes the tail, which accounts for about 1/2 the overall length). Small = 12', Average = 16', and Large = 20'. This is the length of the dragon at the 3rd or 4th age category (depending on whether your dragons have 6 or 8 age categories, respectively). The length of the dragon at other ages is simply a matter of a percent of the base length, as follows:

Age Category
1 = 33%
2 = 66%
3 = 100%
4 = 133%
5 = 166%
6 = 200%

OR

1 = 25%
2 = 50%
3 = 75%
4 = 100%
5 = 125%
6 = 150%
7 = 175%
8 = 200%

[strangebrew]

Sept 21, 2013 14:05:32 GMT -6 kent said:

Tolkien did seem to associate size with dragon power but I think he still kept sizes modest. My impression of the Tolkien dragons is that they long and thin worms or snakes and not so much the chunky dinosaurs we tend to see painted. www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46049

This painting by Tolkien confirms your impression:

[krusader74]

The square-cube law says that as a shape grows in size, its volume grows faster than its surface area. Specifically, volume grows with the cube of length while surface area only grows with the square of length. This has major repercussions for biomechanics:

If an animal were scaled up by a considerable amount, its relative muscular strength would be severely reduced, since the cross section of its muscles would increase by the square of the scaling factor while its mass would increase by the cube of the scaling factor. As a result of this, cardiovascular and respiratory functions would be severely burdened. (Quoted from Wikipedia, Square-cube law.)

The article continues... "The giant monsters seen in horror movies (e.g., Godzilla or King Kong) are also unrealistic, as their sheer size would force them to collapse."

Mythological dragons were originally conceived as water elementals (or sea serpents) as pointed out in this post:

Note that our word "dragon" comes from the Greek word "δράκων" or "drakon" which means "serpent, giant seafish." So there is a strong connection between dragons and sea monsters in ancient literature: Python, Jörmungand, Leviathan were all at one time considered dragons, but would now commonly get classified merely as sea serpents. In the original Greek, there's no real distinction. In the Bible, Leviathan is identified figuratively with the primeval sea (Job 3:8, Psalms 74:13).

This makes 100% perfect sense in light of the square-cube law, because "the buoyancy of water negates to some extent the effects of gravity. Therefore, sea creatures can grow to very large sizes without the same musculoskeletal structures that would be required of similarly sized land creatures." (Quoted from Wikipedia, Square-cube law.)

Therefore, aquatic dragons can be much, much larger than terrestrial or subterranean dragons.

WRT flight, the Wikipedia article continues: "In the case of flying animals, the wing loading would be increased if they were scaled up, and they would therefore have to fly faster to gain the same amount of lift. Air resistance per unit mass is also higher for smaller animals, which is why a small animal like an ant cannot be crushed by falling from any height."

So we'd expect the size of flying dragons to depend on the amount of thrust they can generate. The biggest flying dinosaurs were the Quetzalcoatlus with a wingspan of 30-33 feet and the Hatzegopteryx with a maximum estimated wingspan of 39 feet. Flying dragons could be even bigger, even as big as a jet, if they simply had jet propulsion. That's not as crazy as it sounds. Note that "cephalopods, sea hares, arthropods, and fish have convergently evolved jet propulsion mechanisms." (Quoted from Wikipedia, Jet propulsion.) Moreover, "In some dragonfly larvae, jet propulsion is achieved by the expulsion of water from a specialised cavity through the anus. Given the small size of the organism, a great speed is achieved." (Ibid.) This post mentions Turkish dragons, which "secrete flames from their tails, leaving a firey wake." Perhaps a form of jet propulsion?

[Vile Traveller]

I like most of my dragons to fit into 10'x 10' corridors. They do keep growing throughout their life, though (as ERB so often pointed out about his dinosaurs in Pellucidar), so the very few that make it to a great age tend to hang out in more spacious digs.

[Chainsaw]

Pretty much whatever size I need for the situation. No standard.

[strangebrew]

Sept 21, 2013 23:41:55 GMT -6 krusader74 said:

This post mentions Turkish dragons, which "secrete flames from their tails, leaving a firey wake." Perhaps a form of jet propulsion?

I'd consider having dragons fly backwards, using their breath weapons for propulsion, but I think they'd end up running into a lot of things. Maybe we should consider changing "breath weapon" to "anus weapon".

On a related note, a dragon like Tolkien's would not be able to support a rider while flying. Only a very large would probably cool, in proportion to a bird of prey and their usual victims (rodents, small birds). Even then, the dragon or bird will have the smaller creature in their claws, as opposed to sitting on their back. And once a bird catches a mouse, they haul it back to their nest ASAP, since the extra weight is probably exhausting for their wings.

But if we linger too much on the feasibility of dragon flight we would also need to look at the levitation of beholders, the paralysis of ghouls, and the genetic heritage of the centaur.

[Porphyre]

Sept 21, 2013 23:03:48 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

Sept 21, 2013 14:05:32 GMT -6 kent said:

Tolkien did seem to associate size with dragon power but I think he still kept sizes modest. My impression of the Tolkien dragons is that they long and thin worms or snakes and not so much the chunky dinosaurs we tend to see painted. www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46049

This painting by Tolkien confirms your impression:

Yet, Ancalagon the black crushed the mighty peaks of Thangorodrin in its fall...

[Porphyre]

Sept 22, 2013 0:12:02 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I like most of my dragons to fit into 10'x 10' corridors. They do keep growing throughout their life, though (as ERB so often pointed out about his dinosaurs in Pellucidar), so the very few that make it to a great age tend to hang out in more spacious digs.

I like the idea of a very old and massively bloated ancient wyrm stuck in his treasure room without any possibility of exit.

[Vile Traveller]

Sept 22, 2013 14:34:22 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Sept 22, 2013 0:12:02 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I like most of my dragons to fit into 10'x 10' corridors. They do keep growing throughout their life, though (as ERB so often pointed out about his dinosaurs in Pellucidar), so the very few that make it to a great age tend to hang out in more spacious digs.

I like the idea of a very old and massively bloated ancient wyrm stuck in his treasure room without any possibility of exit.

Possibly due to being fed by worshippers or fearful villagers? A scenario idea!

[Red Baron]

Sept 21, 2013 23:03:48 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

Sept 21, 2013 14:05:32 GMT -6 kent said:

Tolkien did seem to associate size with dragon power but I think he still kept sizes modest. My impression of the Tolkien dragons is that they long and thin worms or snakes and not so much the chunky dinosaurs we tend to see painted. www.dragonsfoot.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46049

This painting by Tolkien confirms your impression:

A Dragons thats slithers, not walks.
And dragon's aren't just greedy, they need all that gold is to manufacture spells.

Oh and kent's back

[Porphyre]

Sept 22, 2013 17:56:14 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Sept 22, 2013 14:34:22 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

I like the idea of a very old and massively bloated ancient wyrm stuck in his treasure room without any possibility of exit.

Possibly due to being fed by worshippers or fearful villagers? A scenario idea!

Where do you think all those treasure maps , just casually lying in various hoards, come from anyway?

[strangebrew]

Sept 22, 2013 14:30:31 GMT -6 Porphyre said:

Sept 21, 2013 23:03:48 GMT -6 strangebrew said:

This painting by Tolkien confirms your impression:

Yet, Ancalagon the black crushed the mighty peaks of Thangorodrin in its fall...

I never read the Simarrilion (and I don't even know how to spell it!) but maybe that is kind of a legendary account, like Noah and the two-of-every-animal thing?

I'm under the impression that the Simirillionianion is much more mythologic in tone than the Hobbit or the Rings trilogy.

[Porphyre]

Indeed.

[tetramorph]

Casting raise dead on this thread.

I match pips to feet in length.

So, a very young small white dragon is 5' long.

An ancient large gold dragon is 72' long (in dragon form).

Seems to do the trick.

I don't worry about the cube square law. Dragons are mythical / magical creatures. They have wings because they are dragons, not because they need them to fly. They fly because they are mystical / magical / mythical dragons! That's why an asian style golden dragon, without wings, "flies" through the air. They are dragons.

[Scott Anderson]

All different sizes. Smaller than a horse up to larger than a barn. I reckon they grow through their lives.

[murquhart72]

In my OD&D games, small dragons are man-sized or just over, medium dragons are a little bigger than a horse, and large dragons are elephant size or maybe bigger. I go with medieval scenes I've seen illustrated or painted.

[waysoftheearth]

CM has base sizes for various figures (3rd Ed, p28):

Where heroes (and other man-types) are on 30mm bases dragons are on 54mm bases. Where heroes (and other man-types) are on 40mm bases dragons are on 70mm bases.

[geoffrey]

Dec 11, 2017 1:20:03 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

CM has base sizes for various figures (3rd Ed, p28):

Where heroes (and other man-types) are on 30mm bases dragons are on 54mm bases. Where heroes (and other man-types) are on 40mm bases dragons are on 70mm bases.

How does that translate into feet?

[tetramorph]

geoffrey, I had the same question.

The best I could figure it is that if the average medieval man is 5', these dragons would be about 9'.

That actually seems about right at least within the small range.

[derv]

This has to do with scale, not basing. Regardless of the scale of the figure used, a man is usually considered to represent a height of 6 feet. So, it's saying that if you are using 30mm figures for men, use 54mm figure to represent dragons. If you are using 40mm figures for men, use something 70mm for a dragon.

30mm= 1 3/16"
54mm= 2 1/8"

40mm= 1 1/2"
70mm= 2 3/4"

A dragon is just shy of being twice as tall as a human sized figure. Approx. 9.5-11 ft. tall.

Chainmail isn't specific about basing, but we know the ground scale is 1"= 10 yards where one figure can represents 10-20 men.

40mm figures would likely be 3/4" based. 25-30mm would have around a 1/2" base.