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Post by kesher on Feb 21, 2013 14:16:07 GMT -6
Hey, mannclay--welcome to the boards!
@aher: Fascinating stuff, and I completely agree about the illusion of a "free market" and that the Founder's Copyright is the way to go. However, as interesting as that idea is, I don't see how it has anything to do with evaluating whether or not these reprints are overpriced.
The market will bear what the market will bear, and WotC has presumably done a fair amount of research before pricing this product. Yeah, I'll be happy if they release lower-cost copies of the individual books and decent, bookmarked pdfs of the originals. Hell, I'd be even happier if they gave it all away for free!
IMO, WotC has done pretty close to what many of us have been saying they should do for the past five years. With DnDNext, the Classic Dungeons & Dragons pdf sales, and now this product, well, they've gained back a good bit of my respect, interest and, I imagine, money.
In the end, the only way to accurately estimate "value", as I think aldarron was referring to, is from a personal standpoint; are you willing to pay what they're asking? If so, it's a fine value. If not, it's not.
And Falconer: Absolutely awesome point about the original documents being not just algorithms, but literature. Dead on. And that's one reason why, as much as I love the idea of all the clones, I have a hard time reading them.
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Post by aher on Feb 21, 2013 19:11:03 GMT -6
There's often confusion about trademark and copyright here. Copyright is more concerned with the text-as-written. The main issue with RPGs is trademark, which mostly applies to Dungeons & Dragons, Beholder, Carrion Crawler, and that sort of thing... This is an excellent point, and it raises a question: Since Gary Gygax's name is on the reprint, and since his 2nd wife Gail owns the trademark to his name, does Hasbro need to pay her residuals in order to reprint these titles? Gail has been very vocal and assertive about her rights to the Gygax name, as evidenced by this post on ENWorld, in which she seems to be threatening Luke and Ernie over the use of their own family name in the production of their new magazine. Also, Hasbro made a big hubbub in this post on their web site about donating a portion of the proceeds from the AD&D 1E reprints to Gail's "Gygax Memorial." I was wondering if this was really nothing more than Hasbro paying off Gail so they could print Gary's name on the covers? Best quote from that post: Gail Gygax: We need money, of course This says it all. If I were to shell out $150 of my hard earned dollars on a reprint, it would be important for me to know who's getting the money. And it would be a big turn off if people hostile to the hobby were getting a "cut."I'd rather spend $40 on the DCC RPG, another $40 on Delving Deeper, and so on, and be absolutely sure that my money was going to people who actually loved the hobby as much as I do. Rather than going to people who just "need money." One other point. I seem to remember, when Dave Arneson was alive, he gave Supplement II: Blackmoor away for free on his web site. Did Dave have some kind of license to do this from Hasbro? Or was this him flipping them the bird?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 19:34:21 GMT -6
... another $40 on Delving Deeper, and so on, and be absolutely sure that my money was going to people who actually loved the hobby as much as I do. Thank you for your support!
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Post by jakdethe on Feb 21, 2013 20:01:56 GMT -6
One other point. I seem to remember, when Dave Arneson was alive, he gave Supplement II: Blackmoor away for free on his web site. Did Dave have some kind of license to do this from Hasbro? Or was this him flipping them the bird? I really hope it was him giving them the bird! The image in my head is hilarious: Mr. Arneson running through WOTC headquarters flipping everyone off
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 21, 2013 20:19:08 GMT -6
One other point. I seem to remember, when Dave Arneson was alive, he gave Supplement II: Blackmoor away for free on his web site. Did Dave have some kind of license to do this from Hasbro? Or was this him flipping them the bird? I really hope it was him giving them the bird! The image in my head is hilarious: Mr. Arneson running through WOTC headquarters flipping everyone off That image in my head is going to make my Friday go easier!
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Post by sulldawga on Feb 21, 2013 21:35:31 GMT -6
My $0.02 on this issue.
They know who will buy this and who won't. Young folks with little disposable income, who are already trained to steal the PDF off the Internet, are not their market.
Old fogies like you and me who have more disposable income are the target demographic.
They did the math, figured out what the price would have to be to get a decent profit margin from 10,000 sales (or however many actually sell), and moved on.
If you want to communicate to Hasbro that this product is, in your opinion, overpriced, don't buy it. That is the only feedback from customers that they seem to take into account.
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Post by jmccann on Feb 21, 2013 22:57:57 GMT -6
My $0.02 on this issue. They know who will buy this and who won't. Young folks with little disposable income, who are already trained to steal the PDF off the Internet, are not their market. Old fogies like you and me who have more disposable income are the target demographic. I think this is true but I also think they are truly realizing that they can make more money by supporting older styles of play. I don't think they are reprinting and making new PDFs just to milk a few extra $$ out of some old fogeys - this is part of their marketing, brand building + some attempts to generate good will. I think they will come out w/ some other less deluxe pricing later. It is pretty easy to sell the 7 books individually or in other groupings w/out the ugly dice and oversized ridiculous box..
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Post by jakdethe on Feb 21, 2013 23:55:26 GMT -6
My $0.02 on this issue. They know who will buy this and who won't. Young folks with little disposable income, who are already trained to steal the PDF off the Internet, are not their market. Old fogies like you and me who have more disposable income are the target demographic. They did the math, figured out what the price would have to be to get a decent profit margin from 10,000 sales (or however many actually sell), and moved on. If you want to communicate to Hasbro that this product is, in your opinion, overpriced, don't buy it. That is the only feedback from customers that they seem to take into account. This is a big problem too. I can't communicate to Hasbro that I think it's overpriced by not buying it, if they aren't expecting me to buy it. If you're right, they aren't expecting me, or my pier group to buy it, so they're going to ignore us ignoring them. Until they release practical versions of the older games it is nothing more than a money grab. We'll see what happens. Hopefully they at least release new PDF's of 0E, 1E, and 2E.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Feb 22, 2013 2:15:37 GMT -6
For people such as myself who actually wanted to run it, reprinting OD&D as a single hardcover, or in a cardboard box, would have been far preferable. A single HB of the OD&D LBBs would rock on toast! Compare the recent Arduin reprint: a big 50 USD hardback with all the essential stuff in it. That's a third of what WotC's asking for the OD&D booklets.
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Post by aldarron on Feb 22, 2013 5:53:12 GMT -6
...... One other point. I seem to remember, when Dave Arneson was alive, he gave Supplement II: Blackmoor away for free on his web site. Did Dave have some kind of license to do this from Hasbro? Or was this him flipping them the bird? I'm virtually certain you are mistaken. Dave Arneson did not have the rights to supplement II. I think you are getting mixed up with the First Fantasy Campaign, to which the Arneson estate does own the rights and which Dave did give away a pdf of the 1980 reprint free on his website. Edit:::: Okay it's me that has it backwards (see below) - what I get for posting before morning coffee I suppose. It's possible he had the rights to release Supp II when he was licensed the Blackmoor line by WOTC.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 22, 2013 6:07:01 GMT -6
No, aher is right, Blackmoor was definitely a free download on Dave Arneson's website for a while. Perhaps the Internet Archive can confirm? Edit: See here where havard mentions the Supplement II pdf, and then the next post has an Internet Archive (Wayback Machine) link to the page. For reference: Perhaps his settlement with TSR gave him certain rights to this?
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Post by Hans E Magnusson on Feb 22, 2013 6:08:49 GMT -6
No, aher is right, Blackmoor was definitely a free download on Dave Arneson's website for a while. Perhaps the Internet Archive can confirm? Yes i remember that to.
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Post by verhaden on Feb 22, 2013 6:10:55 GMT -6
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Post by Falconer on Feb 22, 2013 6:11:50 GMT -6
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Post by aldarron on Feb 22, 2013 6:25:12 GMT -6
Nice job gentleman. Thanks for keeping me honest.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 22, 2013 7:15:14 GMT -6
For people such as myself who actually wanted to run it, reprinting OD&D as a single hardcover, or in a cardboard box, would have been far preferable. A single HB of the OD&D LBBs would rock on toast! Compare the recent Arduin reprint: a big 50 USD hardback with all the essential stuff in it. That's a third of what WotC's asking for the OD&D booklets. Good point. And not only does the Arduin hardback compile the Arduin Trilogy, but it reorganizes it all as well: All the character classes are together, all the spells are together, all the monsters are together, etc. Empcho is awesome.
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Post by sulldawga on Feb 22, 2013 12:52:30 GMT -6
I think this is true but I also think they are truly realizing that they can make more money by supporting older styles of play. I don't think they are reprinting and making new PDFs just to milk a few extra $$ out of some old fogeys - this is part of their marketing, brand building + some attempts to generate good will. I think they will come out w/ some other less deluxe pricing later. It is pretty easy to sell the 7 books individually or in other groupings w/out the ugly dice and oversized ridiculous box.. I tend to agree with you. They want both the young and old to buy 5e so they're re-releasing the LBBs in order to pacify us after the 4e debacle so we don't reflexively oppose anything new from WotC "on principle". "Hmm, I used to hate those guys but they finally released all the PDFs and made all those cool reprints, maybe they're ok after all. Let's pony up some cash and see what this D&D Next is all about..."
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Post by kesher on Feb 22, 2013 12:56:02 GMT -6
Empcho is awesome. True 'dat.
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Chainsaw
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Post by Chainsaw on Feb 23, 2013 6:31:31 GMT -6
I'm unlikely to buy unless a bout of sentimentalism overwhelms me. I'm already cracking... My family's always begging me for good Christmas present ideas and this would probably be a nice fit.
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 23, 2013 12:06:45 GMT -6
I don’t think OD&D and the four Supplements are just algorithms. To me they are literature as well. That can’t be cloned. +1. Exalt! I feel that way about Holmes Basic as well. There's a magical synergy there between Gygax/Arneson's original OD&D text, much of which is preserved, and Holmes editing/additional writing. It's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 24, 2013 3:34:44 GMT -6
I don’t think OD&D and the four Supplements are just algorithms. To me they are literature as well. That can’t be cloned. I feel that way about Holmes Basic as well. There's some magical synergy there between Gygax/Arneson's original OD&D text, much of which is presevered, and Holmes editing/additional writing. It's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. In spite of what I may say about the technical aspects of it, I'm entirely in agreement with you both.
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Post by jeffb on Feb 24, 2013 19:28:31 GMT -6
I am all over these. I had to sell my original LBBs a few years ago along with my RQ collection when I was out of work for an extended period of time.
I will be using them at the table, I gave up on the collecting mentality years ago.
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Feb 25, 2013 20:33:56 GMT -6
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 25, 2013 21:51:02 GMT -6
Thanks for the info!
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Supersonic Underwear!
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Post by machpants on Feb 25, 2013 22:28:45 GMT -6
Pre-ordered, and it is classed as a book so they ship internationally! Even to New Zealand shipping is less than 20US!
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Post by vladtolenkov on Feb 26, 2013 14:36:04 GMT -6
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Post by kesher on Feb 26, 2013 14:40:46 GMT -6
Holy Cripes! That Warhammer RPG is out of control...
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Post by vladtolenkov on Feb 26, 2013 14:42:10 GMT -6
That's just the core books too. . .
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Post by giantbat on Feb 26, 2013 15:51:11 GMT -6
WFRP 3E doesn't seem like a good example to me. 4 rulebooks, 30 dice, 300 cards, and some other accessories, all for 2/3 the MSRP of the OD&D reprints. Those books are full color on glossy paper, and contain the result of new design efforts, not reprinting old IP.
Don't get me wrong, for playing I'll take my LBBs or a reprint of them over WFRP 3E any day. But cost/price wise, the OD&D reprints don't add up at all in comparison.
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Post by vladtolenkov on Feb 26, 2013 17:48:18 GMT -6
Fair enough. But that Squad Leader stuff is REALLY out of control! 80 bucks for a rulebook and you still can't play the game. You need to spend another 100 bucks to get Beyond Valor--and then you can play some stuff with the German and the Russians. Thread detour over! Sorry, we can get back to talking about the actual OD&D set and not other overpriced gaming stuff now.
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