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Post by Falconer on Oct 10, 2011 16:30:34 GMT -6
Another ODD74/K&KA dual citizen, here. I feel the limits and taboos of each board are pretty well-defined. I think the only thing that can get you “fried” at either place is excessively promoting off-topic games. That’s just poor taste. Most people have no problems respecting those limits.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2011 16:46:31 GMT -6
Okay folks, if I can interject my unsolicited opinion here:
I think it is great the majority of you feel this is a friendly board with an appropriate level of moderation but ...
... is there any way y'all could express that sentiment without running down other forums? That just really isn't proper netiquette. We've all had our bad experiences with runaway threads and lousy (or absent) moderation, but if you have a problem with another forum then take it up with them.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 10, 2011 17:12:04 GMT -6
I suppose those players who advocate a specific approach to the game have (or create) their own boards, for like-minded folks. Those who are more open to trying different ways, or at least talking about them, end up here. And the open nature of the original rules means you can add or change anything and still (apparently) say you are playing D&D, which helps. Once things get more and more codified and intertwined you lose that.
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Post by makofan on Oct 10, 2011 18:45:40 GMT -6
One thing I like here is we are encouraged to do thread necromancy. That way we don't get people slapping our hands for thread necromancy, or people continually starting new threads on the same topic and exasperating people.
Allowing thread necromancy helps keep things civil!
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Post by ragnorakk on Oct 11, 2011 8:35:28 GMT -6
I've never quite understood the negative view on thread necromancy - in fact, I've never seen anyone 'called out' for it, either. Is the opprobrium real? I, for one, go through spates of digging back into old threads and reviving ones of personal interest - it just makes sense to continue conversations rather than starting a new one on the same topic out of principle or something.
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Post by kent on Oct 11, 2011 9:32:41 GMT -6
Another ODD74/K&KA dual citizen Yep. I remember you being outside the group think at KKA, you didn't come across as a typical member.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 11, 2011 10:27:36 GMT -6
However, the forum CotI is where the grognards (and esp. the Mods) are heel-clicking, goose-stepping Brownshirts and where advocating something else than the RAW/BtB approach can get a person perma-banned. My very first day there I was banned. I think a few months later I was given a second ban for contradicting one of the posters who happened to be one of the the Mods. I still post there occasionally, but I'm very wary to post any ideas which are remotely creative or innovative for fear that my third ban will be permanent. There was another poster there who was well known for posting *fantastic*, imaginative interpretations of the rules which inspired and excited me to play the game. However, because he was advocating something not strictly in the books, something which did not harmonise with the official Traveller campaign universe, he was banned too. Shame that. Here at ODD74 I haven't yet run afoul of anyone. *scans the room for suspects* I think others hit on the reason why ODD seems to be more tolerant: it not only allows expansion and customisation -- it demands it. The later ideology in RPG design tried to remove player/referee contribution from the product, and that's where you get the room-full of snotty, know-it-all rules-lawyers. *glares balefully in the direction of CotI* While both OD&D and Traveller began as toolboxes (albeit with some implied setting elements), OD&D managed to avoid being saddled with an official setting. So the ODD74 civility is bolstered not only by rules-vagueness but setting-vagueness as well. Most of the unpleasant behavior I've observed at CotI seems connected to OTU "heresies." If OD&D had run a similar course -- say, if Greyhawk had become the "official" OD&D setting -- would ODD74 have a CotI-esque grumpy-canon-police presence? Ug. all these acronyms are making me head spin. What the heck is CotI and OTU? OCD, OD&D, BtB etc. I think i got.
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Post by talysman on Oct 11, 2011 10:43:59 GMT -6
I've never quite understood the negative view on thread necromancy - in fact, I've never seen anyone 'called out' for it, either. Is the opprobrium real? I, for one, go through spates of digging back into old threads and reviving ones of personal interest - it just makes sense to continue conversations rather than starting a new one on the same topic out of principle or something. I think it mostly came from forums with old flamewars or threads that the members would like to think they were otherwise "done with". The anger seems to be a reaction to being "tricked" into thinking a lively debate is current, when really it's all old stuff. Other places carried over the anti-necromancy prejudice because some people learned that as newbs on another forum and accepted it without question.
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Post by stonetoflesh on Oct 11, 2011 11:19:23 GMT -6
Ug. all these acronyms are making me head spin. What the heck is CotI and OTU? OCD, OD&D, BtB etc. I think i got. Sorry about that: CotI = Citizens of the ImperiumOTU = Official Traveller Universe (aka the Third Imperium) ... is there any way y'all could express that sentiment without running down other forums? That just really isn't proper netiquette. We've all had our bad experiences with runaway threads and lousy (or absent) moderation, but if you have a problem with another forum then take it up with them. Sure thing.
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Post by Falconer on Oct 11, 2011 14:17:19 GMT -6
Yep. I remember you being outside the group think at KKA, you didn't come across as a typical member. Thanks? Sorry to drag this out, but since the top three posters are AxeMental, TheRedPriest, and Mythmere, I see far too little overlap to be able to describe a “typical” K&KA member! ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2011 14:46:12 GMT -6
Yep. I remember you being outside the group think at KKA, you didn't come across as a typical member. Thanks? Sorry to drag this out, but since the top three posters are AxeMental, TheRedPriest, and Mythmere, I see far too little overlap to be able to describe a “typical” K&KA member! ;D The character of any small community is usually determined by a small but aggressively vocal minority. Both DF and K&KA both have a certain feel that is a result of such minorities. Some are fine with it, some see it as negative. Personally, some of the behaviour I've seen on both those forums from long-standing core members has made me literally feel sick to the stomach. The fact is that the mood of a forum is set by its leadership (i.e. admin, moderators and dominant posters). If the leadership turns a blind eye to negative behaviour, or worse, are actively involved in such behaviour, the negative feel of the forum is set in concrete. Marv has done a brilliant job of keeping this forum a friendly and civil place. Over the last year or two there has been a growing frequency of the sorts of aggressive behaviour that is typical in DF and K&KA, so much so that I deleted my original "Greyharp" account and became a lurker for a while. Some of those who are changing the tone here are also regulars at K&KA and/or DF. I'm not alone in noticing this and I know of other members who have stopped posting regularly here because they've noticed the same thing and are unhappy with it. Marv's a one-man show and that's probably this forum's strength and weakness. It's fairly obvious from his posts that he's a decent and considerate guy and the forum reflects that. But he's also just one man trying to control the mood of a forum of 1,300 members. A big job for sure, but he's done a d**n good job so far. For all those who feel fine with the mood of K&KA and DF, know that there's plenty of us who don't. We like this forum not only for the topic discussed, but because it's been a friendly, relatively conflict-free place to "share the love". Please check your egos and combatant attitudes at the door and help keep this forum different from the others and a pleasurable place for ALL of us to hang out.
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Post by kent on Oct 11, 2011 15:26:52 GMT -6
austrodavicus, I don't think forums deserve such earnest analysis and demands. After all the tone cannot be forced and is determined by the currently active membership which naturally changes as individuals feel they have said enough and quieten down or leave. As with morality all we can certainly object to is hypocrisy, ie "i am mod and am permitted to talk tough but if you talk tough I'll ban you." My two complaints about DF and KKA are fist that there are cases where naked raw stupidity is tolerated under a cloak of civility and politeness. If I had a forum I would not ban stupid posters but would permit contemptuous responses. Second, moderators should be smart, patient and have a sense of humour. Moderators should not be selected for being friendly with groups of members who hang around on the forum. Yep. I remember you being outside the group think at KKA, you didn't come across as a typical member. Thanks? Sorry to drag this out, but since the top three posters are AxeMental, TheRedPriest, and Mythmere, I see far too little overlap to be able to describe a “typical” K&KA member! ;D Sure, little in common there. Heh, it seems as if Axemental is an engine keeping the place alive at times.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2011 17:11:50 GMT -6
austrodavicus, I don't think forums deserve such earnest analysis and demands. I certainly made no demands and I wouldn't go as far as to call my observations "analysis". After all the tone cannot be forced and is determined by the currently active membership which naturally changes as individuals feel they have said enough and quieten down or leave. From my personal experience with a variety of different face-to-face and online communities and social groups, the tone is not determined by the "currently active membership", but by the minority of strongest personalities and the strength of the leadership to deal with them. But I agree, a tone can't be forced. If I had a forum I would not ban stupid posters but would permit contemptuous responses. There is a difference between "stupid" and negative. Attacking someone because you think they're intellectually inferior is bad form in my book. Giving a contemptuous response is simply descending to their level and only makes the situation worse. It is possible to be blunt and honest without resorting to contempt and insults. Second, moderators should be smart, patient and have a sense of humour. Moderators should not be selected for being friendly with groups of members who hang around on the forum. I agree and would add that they should be straight shooters capable of being objective and fair. When it's the moderators themselves who are behaving badly then I see no hope of such a community going anywhere good.
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Post by kent on Oct 12, 2011 9:03:36 GMT -6
There is a difference between "stupid" and negative. Yes there is. In an open discussion forum contrary views should be welcomed but for some people contrary views are negative. People become stupid and repetitive if their views are not tested; the most prominent bloggers come to mind. When views have been held and approved by a tiny group for a long time fresh opposing views are described as 'aggressive' or 'negative'. Personally I think stylish ridicule is a fair implement to use when it cuts through the infinite cycle of cheap tit for tat where members talk past each other. Mockery focuses the mind. In a deadlock the spoils go to the witty.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 12, 2011 10:29:12 GMT -6
There is a difference between "stupid" and negative. Yes there is. In an open discussion forum contrary views should be welcomed but for some people contrary views are negative. People become stupid and repetitive if their views are not tested; the most prominent bloggers come to mind. When views have been held and approved by a tiny group for a long time fresh opposing views are described as 'aggressive' or 'negative'. Personally I think stylish ridicule is a fair implement to use when it cuts through the infinite cycle of cheap tit for tat where members talk past each other. Mockery focuses the mind. In a deadlock the spoils go to the witty. Interesting point. Definetly does focus the mind. The success of mockery however is entirely dependent on the honour norms held by the listeners, which varies a great deal even in the english speaking world. Some listners will find the mockery witty, others juvenile, others beligerant depending on internalized cultural expectations. So the value of the tactic depends on whether you are attempting to "win" a target audience or a broader base.
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Post by kesher on Oct 12, 2011 14:01:06 GMT -6
Um, might I suggest we're drifting a bit? Amen, brother! I find it amazing that we're up to 1300 members--when I joined, I'm not sure there was even 100! Given that growth, I think it speaks volumes of the norms of interaction promoted here originally (and consistently!) by Fin, but also by the vast majority of other regular posters. It sets an undeniable tone that new members grokk pretty much right away. It promotes people asking what in other circumstances might be considered "stupid" questions and also feeling more confident putting out their own ideas without fear of someone immediately rejecting them as stupid. In short, we tend to listen around here. I do agree the the Exalt but no Smite dynamic is weirdly generative of positive feeling, and also that feeling free to resurrect the oldest of threads is actively encouraged. I have, on other forums, been castigated for doing just that. I also notice that a lot of us check in on the Introductions forum and welcome newcomers. I know I try to do it, and I think it sets a positive initial tone. Oh yeah, and ODD RAWKS!
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by arcadayn on Oct 12, 2011 15:03:35 GMT -6
Well put Kesher! I share your sentiments exactly.
One of my favorite things about the forum is that I can find something interesting and/or useful in every sub forum. I think a lot of this is attributable to the pro thread necromancy stance. Certain threads are almost like research projects where new researchers are continually added to the mix. I've learned more about our hobby on this forum than anywhere else.
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eris
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Post by eris on Oct 12, 2011 15:24:33 GMT -6
I'm all for patting ourselves on the back.... ...but if you check the posts you'll find that about 900 of the members here have posted 5, or fewer, times. Several hundred have never made any posts! For all intents and purposes, we are a small forum with only few really active posters. However, I agree that this is a very friendly forum, and I'm very happy to be here.
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Post by kent on Oct 12, 2011 18:53:17 GMT -6
I do agree the the Exalt but no Smite dynamic is weirdly generative of positive feeling What did you say? No Smite? I have reluctantly given out three exalts so far on the assumption that I had three smites tucked away to use on Christmas Day. The universe is no longer in balance.
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Post by foxroe on Oct 12, 2011 19:49:26 GMT -6
One thing I like here is we are encouraged to do thread necromancy. That way we don't get people slapping our hands for thread necromancy, or people continually starting new threads on the same topic and exasperating people. Allowing thread necromancy helps keep things civil! Dude! What were you thinking!! This thread was over 30 minutes dead! Necromancer!!! ;D
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palmer
Level 3 Conjurer
Foolish Rules Lawyer! Your disingenuous dissembling means nothing to Doom!
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Post by palmer on Oct 12, 2011 20:33:38 GMT -6
Yow. I havn't been back on the Intertubes since I posted the question and, four pages of discussion. Excellent! And no eye gouging at all.
Thanks for chewing this over, guys. Discussing the things we value re-enforces them in our minds. I was feeling a bit down about the internet D&D world when I posted. You guys are a ray of sunshine, in my dank, goblin infested dungeon of gaming philosphy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 5:42:50 GMT -6
I'm all for patting ourselves on the back.... ...but if you check the posts you'll find that about 900 of the members here have posted 5, or fewer, times. Several hundred have never made any posts! For all intents and purposes, we are a small forum with only few really active posters. However, I agree that this is a very friendly forum, and I'm very happy to be here. I think if you would compare with some other forums, the percentage of those who post at all is high compared to elsewhere, all forums have many who come to read and lurk. I believe some lurk because they have limited time and they spend it reading, other may feel that they just don't have anything to contribute, although I think virtually (no pun intended) all members would have useful comments to contribute, even it if was only questions. Questions can spark a discussion of things that many don't know or aren't sure about, that others so take for granted that they would otherwise never bring it up. I hope over time every member posts in the Introduction thread, even if you have been lurking for years it is never too late to post and say "Hi" to the group. As I think about it, I am sure there are many who have never posted who may have tons of knowledge in areas the rest of us would be fascinated by and I am sure there are some lurkers who may have started playing back in the first few months of the game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 5:47:22 GMT -6
I do agree the the Exalt but no Smite dynamic is weirdly generative of positive feeling What did you say? No Smite? I have reluctantly given out three exalts so far on the assumption that I had three smites tucked away to use on Christmas Day. The universe is no longer in balance. I have enthusiastically given out over 200 Exalts, YMMV. ;D I love an out of balance universe!
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Post by foxroe on Oct 13, 2011 6:39:31 GMT -6
What did you say? No Smite? I have reluctantly given out three exalts so far on the assumption that I had three smites tucked away to use on Christmas Day. The universe is no longer in balance. I have enthusiastically given out over 200 Exalts, YMMV. ;D I love an out of balance universe! Excellent! Exalt!
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Koren n'Rhys
Level 6 Magician
Got your mirrorshades?
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Post by Koren n'Rhys on Oct 13, 2011 7:58:09 GMT -6
I've been around, mostly lurking for 2 years now and have never felt unwelcome, or that an opinion I offered was looked down upon. That speaks volumes, to me. I just don't post much since OD&D isn't my "go to" game and I don't know it well at all. I joined here to get some insight and ideas for S&W and often find really interesting discussions that apply to any system.
I'll also point out that I've felt the same support over at DF. I've heard that the 1e forum there is somewhat unfriendly, but don't frequent it. I stick to Classic there and they seem a good group of people.
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Post by coffee on Oct 13, 2011 11:42:13 GMT -6
We may not have as many lurkers as you might think.
Some people come here specifically to participate in the many online games we have here (I'm in a few myself...) -- and those posts don't count toward your total.
And the games, too, are part of what makes this forum special. There really is something for everyone (well, everyone interested in OD&D anyway).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2011 12:27:55 GMT -6
OD&D Discussion is the best forum because OD&D is the best game.
So there. ;D
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jacar
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by jacar on Oct 13, 2011 13:41:34 GMT -6
0DnD is such an open ended game that you can literally make what you want of it. Sure there will be posts of "How do I do X" and everyone here will probably embrace what you are trying to do and help out with some genuinely wonderful ideas. There are also posts about "What do you suppose Gary meant by X" which are usually akin to "How many angels can you fit on the head of a pin?" Usually there is no right answer but it is often a fun and not so tense debate.
Regardless, this board is inhabited by folks who want to play a simple role playing game and don't take themselves too seriously.
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Aplus
Level 6 Magician
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Post by Aplus on Oct 13, 2011 13:47:27 GMT -6
You guys even tolerate Kent. Tee-hee.. Once Kent posted something that really pissed me off (I don't even remember what it was, it was so important) and I started typing up some elaborate rant that probably would have made me look like a big jackass. Then I thought to myself, "Wait, this is the OD&D boards. I should probably just ignore him and move on." I'm sure a few people can relate. Even when BS does make its way to these boards, we can do our part by not feeding into it. As a member here I feel like that's sort of my responsibility - to engage in the good discussions and give positive feedback, and just stay away from the negative stuff. Let that stuff die of starvation or make its way to some other board where people will happily feed into it. And please don't read this as an indictment of Kent specifically. That is not my intent. He just got lucky enough to be the most recent example in my case.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 13, 2011 15:24:08 GMT -6
Once ___ posted something that really pissed me off (I don't even remember what it was, it was so important) and I started typing up some elaborate rant that probably would have made me look like a big jackass. Then I thought to myself, "Wait, this is the OD&D boards. I should probably just ignore him and move on." What a wonderful comment, and one that I'm sure could apply to many folks here which is why I left the name off of the above quote. We see something and could go ballistic or shrug it off, and usually we just let it ride. This is a good group and I hope we never lose the magic that makes this place so cool.
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