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Post by gloriousbattle on Aug 24, 2011 9:20:16 GMT -6
I don't think this thread is actually going to be so controversial, but given the recent moderator post on flaming, I thought I'd put up a warning.
So:
This is not meant to be a trolling post; it is not meant to start a fight. It is simply a question regarding the roots and history of the game. So, please take it in that spirit. If it nonetheless ends up becoming inflamed, I'll ask the mods to remove it.
Anyway.
I have been thinking for the last few days about the rumors of crazy college students going nuts over D&D, and running around campus basements killing goblins. I'm curious about the origins of these stories. Were these just proto-LARPs? Were there really nutty people doing this? Were these stories just made up out of whole cloth? Some of one and some of the other?
Feel free to post whatever you want, but please let us know if what you are saying is just rumor and conjecture, or if you have a citation of some sort. EIther type of post is fine, just please call it whatever it is.
Cheers
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 9:35:44 GMT -6
My understanding was that it all blew up in the wake of the ever-fascinating Mazes and Monsters movie, which was based on a book based on fairly grossly inaccurate media reporting of a proto-LARPing incident. Or something like that.  |
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oldgamergeek
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Post by oldgamergeek on Aug 24, 2011 10:13:52 GMT -6
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Post by tavis on Aug 24, 2011 11:05:11 GMT -6
Dear's book about the case is an interesting read: secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/The_Dungeon_MasterI think the idea of people doing it for real is an urban myth that basically predated the Egbert case - since there isn't really anything in that case to pin it on, there has to have been this idea out there already which filled the void of the Egbert disappearance. You also see this concept of the line between fantasy and reality becoming dangerously blurred in lots of other media representations - for example, how many plots about virtual reality revolve around "they thought it was just a game but now people are really dying'? It might go as far back as the idea that if you die in a dream, you might really die. |
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 11:39:18 GMT -6
That's an interesting idea...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2011 11:58:14 GMT -6
From all that I have ever read, that stories are by and large a combination of complete fiction and misinformation, people like the BADD group who just out and out lied, the Egbert case where Dear put forth a theory (wrong theory) and the newspapers reported it as fact and Dear failed to correct it, and people who can't tell the difference between SCA and D&D.
One other thing, is that when AD&D came out it added a few unneccesary real-world occultic elements, such as spell components for example.
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Post by thegreyelf on Aug 24, 2011 12:05:26 GMT -6
I FIND THIS THREAD HORRIBLY OFFENSIVE.
Just kidding.
Yeah, pretty sure Kesher's got it spot-on, except that I thought Mazes and Monsters came out AFTER all the hype was kicked up, to capitalize on it.
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rleduc
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Post by rleduc on Aug 24, 2011 13:09:00 GMT -6
As far as I can recall from back in the day, none of this made a dent in the Northeast US. The media reported the one case sensationally, but the story had no legs in my region and there was no backlash or negative effect on gaming at all. May not have true elsewhere, where the usual suspects are somewhat thicker on the ground.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Aug 24, 2011 13:34:09 GMT -6
From that article: "...Egbert called Dear and revealed that he was hiding in Morgan City. Dear traveled to Louisiana (other reports say Texas) and recovered Egbert. When the two finally met, Egbert asked the investigator to conceal the truth of his story. Dear agreed and released the 16-year-old to the custody of his uncle, Dr. Marvin Gross, on September 13, 1979. "Because of his promise to the boy, Dear left the false news reports unchallenged for the rest of the boy's short life. Egbert's third suicide attempt on August 16, 1980, by gunshot, succeeded. Four years after Egbert's death, Dear revealed his story in his 1984 book The Dungeon Master." Interesting, and I don't quite know what to make of the PI's actions. Even though he owed the kid nothing, he gave and kept his word, though he seems fairly quick to have written the book when he felt that he had fulfilled his promise. Was he trying to capitalize on a phenomenon, or trying to warn people about a new "kid destroying evil" (probably fairly, from his viewpoint)? Tavis: Thanks for the title. I might just read it. |
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Post by tavis on Aug 24, 2011 13:43:29 GMT -6
At one point, Dear goes to a game store and asks the owner to find him someone who he can pay to come over to his hotel room and run a game of D&D for him so he can find out what it's all about. The result is fascinating! The other high point of the book is the pictures in which Dear has a strong resemblance to Magnum PI.
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Post by kesher on Aug 24, 2011 13:49:42 GMT -6
At one point, Dear goes to a game store and asks the owner to find him someone who he can pay to come over to his hotel room and run a game of D&D for him so he can find out what it's all about. The result is fascinating! The other high point of the book is the pictures in which Dear has a strong resemblance to Magnum PI. Including both shorts and mustache?? |
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Post by tavis on Aug 24, 2011 15:00:44 GMT -6
Including both shorts and mustache?? More like white suit, alligator boots, and pistol. Did Magnum ever wear that? The pictures at his site are pretty good, I remember the book being even better: www.pimall.com/dear/index.html |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 24, 2011 21:39:01 GMT -6
From all that I have ever read, that stories are by and large a combination of complete fiction and misinformation This is my take on it as well. I haven't seen anything to indicate that anyone actually did any of these things, but they make for interesting stories. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2011 23:41:43 GMT -6
One OTHER thing muddying up the waters, besides people not being able to tell D&D from the SCA, is the popular college hobby in the 70s of "steam tunneling"... that is, find an entrance into the sub-basement areas of a large university campus. It was fairly popular and mostly practiced by non-gamers, though every gamer who heard of it made the "Cool! We could game down there!" comment, long before Egbert or M&M.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Aug 25, 2011 10:35:22 GMT -6
When did people have the spare time in college for meandering through steam-tunnels??!! I barely had enough time to sleep!
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jjarvis
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Post by jjarvis on Aug 25, 2011 11:07:30 GMT -6
When did people have the spare time in college for meandering through steam-tunnels??!! I barely had enough time to sleep! I knew a group of "urban-spelunkers" that could go for a couple blocks underground, through crawlspaces,elevator shafts, and trespassing around MIT and not have to be outside. They played D&D and LARPed but not while they were stupidly risking their lives. |
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Post by xerxez on Aug 26, 2011 4:25:33 GMT -6
Steam tunnel exploration has always been an old college activity for a few brave or foolish souls.
Don't know about LARPing and steam tunnels.
I do know as a fourteen year old in Oklahoma City we had a fair knowledge of the drainage tunnels around our neighborhood and we did attempt to play live D&D in them with real torches. That was dumb, smoky, and our torches burned out quickly, aborting the game.
We were unaware of any others doing it, i think it is an idea that occurs naturally to some who really love the game.
I think the occult and demonic elements of the early games were more a result of agnosticism and atheism, certainly not any satanic agenda.
Demonology and magic craft seemed like any other mythological monsters to the players, the game designers didn't believe in them and had no religious objections to their inclusion as yet another layer to the game.
That's how I've always seen it, I am not saying that is the case.
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Post by gloriousbattle on Aug 26, 2011 7:14:48 GMT -6
I think the occult and demonic elements of the early games were more a result of agnosticism and atheism, certainly not any satanic agenda. Demonology and magic craft seemed like any other mythological monsters to the players, the game designers didn't believe in them and had no religious objections to their inclusion as yet another layer to the game. That's how I've always seen it, I am not saying that is the case. I don't think it ever had a Satanic agenda, as you say, barring a few nutcases. However (and you are not saying this, I understand) to say that D&D has no demonic elements is just as untrue as to say that it is a Satanic conspiracy. When people have asked me about that (I think twice in thirty years of playing) I respond that, yes, it does have demonic elements, but so do MacBeth, Paradise Lost, Doctor Faustus, and many of the great works of literature and stage. In fac, the Devil is probably one of the most commonly used fictional characters in all of western culture. Why would he not be present in a game of medieval fantasy? |
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arcadayn
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Post by arcadayn on Aug 26, 2011 7:45:30 GMT -6
There was quite a bit of satanic panic going on at the time. The whole thing about subliminal messages in rock music was also huge. I think this ties in to some people's idea that D&D and heavy metal are inextricably linked.
We did a lot of goofy stuff back then. We liked to go into old abandoned farmhouses and other abandoned buildings at night and wander around. We'd walk through cemeteries at night. We didn't actually play D&D while we were doing this, but we talked about it several times. We also ended up doing some actual spelunking, which was a blast. If we could have gotten into any tunnels in the city, we would have done it in a heartbeat!
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oldgamergeek
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Post by oldgamergeek on Aug 26, 2011 10:23:51 GMT -6
The 80's was a time of goofy thinking and exploitation from hidden messages in music to D&D is devil worship and anyone remember that preschool case? You would think grown people would know better but no. Preacher X says this is satanic and will turn your kids into demon possessed killers and everyone who disagrees with us is a part of a big conspiracy to take over the world. My Pastor at the time was also our D.M He saw no problem with role playing games or LARPS or Music. The D&D group at My school spent hours being interviewed by local police without Legal representation, no Miranda warnings, no parent present all in violation of Michigan Law. I refused to talk without My Dad or his Lawyer present.
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Post by DungeonDevil on Aug 26, 2011 12:36:33 GMT -6
The D&D group at My school spent hours being interviewed by local police without Legal representation, no Miranda warnings, no parent present all in violation of Michigan Law. I refused to talk without My Dad or his Lawyer present. That's some heavy sh!t right there.  At my junior high at the time the few guys I knew who had the books &c. were hassled by teachers, had their books confiscated, there were threats of suspensions, and so on. D&D went deep underground -- I mean totally off the grid -- after that (perhaps around '82 or '83, IIRC. Never heard about the game again after that...until at least 2000. |
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casey777
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Post by casey777 on Aug 26, 2011 14:16:29 GMT -6
I'm curious about the origins of these stories. Were these just proto-LARPs? Were there really nutty people doing this? Were these stories just made up out of whole cloth? Some of one and some of the other? Mazes & Monsters is on DVD, local library system has a copy which is how I last saw it. Should still be available for sale, perhaps even new and dirt cheap. The 60 Minutes piece about D&D et al should be online as well as a Gary Gygax response (can't remember if it was from that time or later). Tracy Hickman et al had a response site to Patricia Pulling / Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons (B.A.D.D.) that should have more concrete information. A timeline might be helpful, dunno if there is one online. I remember the local bunch that played D&D also played some boffer live combat (which involved running around people's yards and onto roads waving weapons and wearing armor) if not SCA (esp. the older ones). And yeah that 60 Minutes piece was influential, family members made me watch it and several game products were either not allowed or censored mainly as a result of it. |
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Post by talysman on Aug 26, 2011 17:27:57 GMT -6
At one point, Dear goes to a game store and asks the owner to find him someone who he can pay to come over to his hotel room and run a game of D&D for him so he can find out what it's all about. The result is fascinating! The other high point of the book is the pictures in which Dear has a strong resemblance to Magnum PI. Oh, so HE's the one responsible for the "get paid to DM" meme. One OTHER thing muddying up the waters, besides people not being able to tell D&D from the SCA, is the popular college hobby in the 70s of "steam tunneling"... that is, find an entrance into the sub-basement areas of a large university campus. It was fairly popular and mostly practiced by non-gamers, though every gamer who heard of it made the "Cool! We could game down there!" comment, long before Egbert or M&M. I recall the Jargon File referring to this as "vadding", from the covert name of Adventure on computer time-share systems that weren't supposed to have games on them. It was this little factoid that gave me an idea for an as-yet unused monster, the Vad Worm, which is basically a purple worm that tunnels through rock and occasionally into other dimensions, allowing alien creatures to invade. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Aug 26, 2011 20:07:53 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2011 22:45:14 GMT -6
One OTHER thing muddying up the waters, besides people not being able to tell D&D from the SCA, is the popular college hobby in the 70s of "steam tunneling"... that is, find an entrance into the sub-basement areas of a large university campus. It was fairly popular and mostly practiced by non-gamers, though every gamer who heard of it made the "Cool! We could game down there!" comment, long before Egbert or M&M. I learned to play on a college campus with a pretty sizable group and not one of us had any interest in wasting time down in a steam tunnel. I never heard anything about this in the 70's but only in recent years. On the same note we had a lot of state parks nearby and we didn't go out and run wilderness adventures out of doors either. |
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Post by gloriousbattle on Aug 27, 2011 10:21:23 GMT -6
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Post by krusader74 on Apr 11, 2014 22:38:10 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 13, 2014 5:44:48 GMT -6
I still think it comes down to mis-information and lies rathter than any credible sources at all. I played D&D right through the whole 80's decade and my parents never worried that I couldn't keep track of the difference between reality and fantasy.
Well, might have been worried that I might flunk out of college because D&D was more fun than doing homework, but they were highly religious and never worried about demons or real spells or anything like that destroying my soul.
And as a high school & college kid during that era, that Egbert case barely made press in cental Illinois. I've never seen MAZES & MONSTERS, either, although I do recall some goofy "horror" book called HOBGOBLIN that had a role playing guy trapped in a game world reality and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.
I guess the 80's were trying times in RPGs, but mostly under my radar.
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jdjarvis
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Post by jdjarvis on Apr 13, 2014 10:07:37 GMT -6
As far as I can recall from back in the day, none of this made a dent in the Northeast US. The media reported the one case sensationally, but the story had no legs in my region and there was no backlash or negative effect on gaming at all. May not have true elsewhere, where the usual suspects are somewhat thicker on the ground. It had an impact in the Northeast US. A number of kids I knew played D&D in the basement rec room of the local catholic school and after a while they couldn't keep playing there but the deacon let kids use the bulletijs boards at the school and church to organize games at home even after the semi-ban. I knew folks who had parents throw out their D&D stuff because of the hysteria but ultimately the press seemed to draw more people to the game. |
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Post by stevemitchell on Apr 13, 2014 16:48:54 GMT -6
I worked for a campus police department at the time, and WE went steam-tunneling. We had the keys and the maps, so it made it even easier. I never worried about goblins down there, but I had uneasy thoughts about CHUDs and Deros. . . .
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