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Post by thorswulf on Apr 13, 2014 18:33:49 GMT -6
I was just starting to play Holmes Basic and AD&D when this fecal mattier hit the rotary oscillator. Yes I got tracts de la Chick, but my mother being incredibly wise told me to ignore the well intentioned gift of the anti D&D tract that had been given to me by a younger friend. I hope Tom Hanks' kids play D&D, that would be the ultimate irony if you ask me! Mind you I don't blame him, I just think the irony would be too funny. I never steam tunnelled, but I knew about them. I worked with the college crimewatch group at college and knew better. I did have a couple of teachers who did hassle me because I read my books and magazines too much. In hindsight they should have been glad I WAS reading as most kids didn't read very much in my school. As far as occult references, sure D&D has them, but so does any fantasy genre story. Some players may be practicing pagans for that matter. Fine with me. Live and let live.
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Post by oakesspalding on Apr 14, 2014 0:42:19 GMT -6
As a traditionalist Catholic with two (going on four) children I have some sympathy with Christians who view D&D or "role-playing" with suspicion. This may sound odd coming from someone who recently created a neo-clone of OD&D, but there it is. That said, in this secular world there are a million things I worry about having negative influences on my children, which is one reason why we will probably do homeschooling. D&D is far down on the list, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially on the list. Why? Role-playing is immersive--which is fine--but immersing oneself in the role of say, a Chaotic Evil Cleric or Assassin worshipping some evil god and looking for human sacrifices is, in my opinion, not spiritually healthy, especial for children. Now, of course, D&D doesn't mandate that you do this. If you want to play a goody-goody Paladin every time, you can (or, rather, you can under certain class and attribute determination schemes), but there's a certain neutrality about the rules regarding this sort of thing that I find disturbing. And for Christians, magic is at best questionable. Wizards are after all one of the explicitly defined sets of bad guys in the Bible. Yes I know it's only a game. Yes, I know that children who play D&D are NOT just one step away from joining a coven (as my friend Jack Chick might suggest), or shooting up their school, or whatever. But spiritual harm can be more subtle than that. I think C.S. Lewis got it right when he said that stepping into the role of a demon for Screwtape was morally draining. He was glad when it was over. What then of an eight-year old? I do not mean here to be critical per se of anyone--Christian or non-Christian gamers. Though I've interacted with them only tangentially, I look at some of the more successful "R-rated" gaming people--Zack S., James R. and Geoffrey come to mind--as gaming comrades. They have done great work, but it's not how I choose to approach things, especially when writing for an audience that might contain children. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than they are, nor that I'm any better than any other "fundamentalist" or traditionalist Christian that might look at things differently. That's not the role I want to play. Rather, I do think know a bit more about gaming than, say, Jack Chick, and thus I know that D&D doesn't have to be the evil satanic gateway drug that he or some others might believe. Does this mean that I want D&D to be some sort of Narnia on steroids, complete with no God but Aslan and experience points for being holy, or whatever? No. That would be boring and stupid, and if anything, would probably draw children away from Christianity. (If you want a sure fire way of drawing your children away from Christianity, make it boring and stupid). My neo-clone is set in an explicitly Pagan world. But there are occasional glimmerings that there might be something more, and a few implicit/explicit Christian references that in my view sort of ground things. Did I finesse it perfectly? I have no idea. Or rather, probably not. But I did think it worth a try. Oh well, now that I've probably alienated almost everyone, I should also say that I hate unanimity.
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Post by kesher on Apr 14, 2014 10:12:08 GMT -6
CHUDs! Yes!
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Post by kesher on Apr 14, 2014 10:17:41 GMT -6
As a traditionalist Catholic with two (going on four) children I have some sympathy with Christians who view D&D or "role-playing" with suspicion. This may sound odd coming from someone who recently created a neo-clone of OD&D, but there it is. That said, in this secular world there are a million things I worry about having negative influences on my children, which is one reason why we will probably do homeschooling. D&D is far down on the list, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially on the list. Why? Role-playing is immersive--which is fine--but immersing oneself in the role of say, a Chaotic Evil Cleric or Assassin worshipping some evil god and looking for human sacrifices is, in my opinion, not spiritually healthy, especial for children. Now, of course, D&D doesn't mandate that you do this. If you want to play a goody-goody Paladin every time, you can (or, rather, you can under certain class and attribute determination schemes), but there's a certain neutrality about the rules regarding this sort of thing that I find disturbing. And for Christians, magic is at best questionable. Wizards are after all one of the explicitly defined sets of bad guys in the Bible. Yes I know it's only a game. Yes, I know that children who play D&D are NOT just one step away from joining a coven (as my friend Jack Chick might suggest), or shooting up their school, or whatever. But spiritual harm can be more subtle than that. I think C.S. Lewis got it right when he said that stepping into the role of a demon for Screwtape was morally draining. He was glad when it was over. What then of an eight-year old? I do not mean here to be critical per se of anyone--Christian or non-Christian gamers. Though I've interacted with them only tangentially, I look at some of the more successful "R-rated" gaming people--Zack S., James R. and Geoffrey come to mind--as gaming comrades. They have done great work, but it's not how I choose to approach things, especially when writing for an audience that might contain children. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than they are, nor that I'm any better than any other "fundamentalist" or traditionalist Christian that might look at things differently. That's not the role I want to play. Rather, I do think know a bit more about gaming than, say, Jack Chick, and thus I know that D&D doesn't have to be the evil satanic gateway drug that he or some others might believe. Does this mean that I want D&D to be some sort of Narnia on steroids, complete with no God but Aslan and experience points for being holy, or whatever? No. That would be boring and stupid, and if anything, would probably draw children away from Christianity. (If you want a sure fire way of drawing your children away from Christianity, make it boring and stupid). My neo-clone is set in an explicitly Pagan world. But there are occasional glimmerings that there might be something more, and a few implicit/explicit Christian references that in my view sort of ground things. Did I finesse it perfectly? I have no idea. Or rather, probably not. But I did think it worth a try. Oh well, now that I've probably alienated almost everyone, I should also say that I hate unanimity. My friend, that was a brave and honest post. I for one appreciate the insight.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on Apr 14, 2014 14:33:43 GMT -6
As a traditionalist Catholic with two (going on four) children I have some sympathy with Christians who view D&D or "role-playing" with suspicion. This may sound odd coming from someone who recently created a neo-clone of OD&D, but there it is. That said, in this secular world there are a million things I worry about having negative influences on my children, which is one reason why we will probably do homeschooling. D&D is far down on the list, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially on the list. Why? Role-playing is immersive--which is fine--but immersing oneself in the role of say, a Chaotic Evil Cleric or Assassin worshipping some evil god and looking for human sacrifices is, in my opinion, not spiritually healthy, especial for children. Now, of course, D&D doesn't mandate that you do this. If you want to play a goody-goody Paladin every time, you can (or, rather, you can under certain class and attribute determination schemes), but there's a certain neutrality about the rules regarding this sort of thing that I find disturbing. And for Christians, magic is at best questionable. Wizards are after all one of the explicitly defined sets of bad guys in the Bible. Yes I know it's only a game. Yes, I know that children who play D&D are NOT just one step away from joining a coven (as my friend Jack Chick might suggest), or shooting up their school, or whatever. But spiritual harm can be more subtle than that. I think C.S. Lewis got it right when he said that stepping into the role of a demon for Screwtape was morally draining. He was glad when it was over. What then of an eight-year old? I do not mean here to be critical per se of anyone--Christian or non-Christian gamers. Though I've interacted with them only tangentially, I look at some of the more successful "R-rated" gaming people--Zack S., James R. and Geoffrey come to mind--as gaming comrades. They have done great work, but it's not how I choose to approach things, especially when writing for an audience that might contain children. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than they are, nor that I'm any better than any other "fundamentalist" or traditionalist Christian that might look at things differently. That's not the role I want to play. Rather, I do think know a bit more about gaming than, say, Jack Chick, and thus I know that D&D doesn't have to be the evil satanic gateway drug that he or some others might believe. Does this mean that I want D&D to be some sort of Narnia on steroids, complete with no God but Aslan and experience points for being holy, or whatever? No. That would be boring and stupid, and if anything, would probably draw children away from Christianity. (If you want a sure fire way of drawing your children away from Christianity, make it boring and stupid). My neo-clone is set in an explicitly Pagan world. But there are occasional glimmerings that there might be something more, and a few implicit/explicit Christian references that in my view sort of ground things. Did I finesse it perfectly? I have no idea. Or rather, probably not. But I did think it worth a try. Oh well, now that I've probably alienated almost everyone, I should also say that I hate unanimity. Thanks for the honest note on the subject and I understand your reasoning. But, the reality is the perceived risk of immersing oneself in violent or "evil" activities in a game (video or tabletop), or watching a movie, or acting in a stage play are hardly worthy of the hysteria created during the 80's around D&D and Satanic ritual crime in general. It was entirely spread with misinformation and outright falsehoods. With Geraldo, Donahue, and a "Just say No" sociopolitical climate you get this sort of sensationalism and Boolean outlook. There are plenty of risks we have to be aware of as parents and we mitigate what we can to protect our children. This sort of thing perpetuated by any organization (religious or otherwise) is a shame because parents divert their attention from the real risks out there.
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Post by kent on Apr 14, 2014 19:25:43 GMT -6
As a traditionalist Catholic with two (going on four) children I have some sympathy with Christians who view D&D or "role-playing" with suspicion. This may sound odd coming from someone who recently created a neo-clone of OD&D, but there it is. That said, in this secular world there are a million things I worry about having negative influences on my children, which is one reason why we will probably do homeschooling. D&D is far down on the list, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially on the list. Why? Role-playing is immersive--which is fine--but immersing oneself in the role of say, a Chaotic Evil Cleric or Assassin worshipping some evil god and looking for human sacrifices is, in my opinion, not spiritually healthy, especial for children. Now, of course, D&D doesn't mandate that you do this. If you want to play a goody-goody Paladin every time, you can (or, rather, you can under certain class and attribute determination schemes), but there's a certain neutrality about the rules regarding this sort of thing that I find disturbing. And for Christians, magic is at best questionable. Wizards are after all one of the explicitly defined sets of bad guys in the Bible. Yes I know it's only a game. Yes, I know that children who play D&D are NOT just one step away from joining a coven (as my friend Jack Chick might suggest), or shooting up their school, or whatever. But spiritual harm can be more subtle than that. I think C.S. Lewis got it right when he said that stepping into the role of a demon for Screwtape was morally draining. He was glad when it was over. What then of an eight-year old? I do not mean here to be critical per se of anyone--Christian or non-Christian gamers. Though I've interacted with them only tangentially, I look at some of the more successful "R-rated" gaming people--Zack S., James R. and Geoffrey come to mind--as gaming comrades. They have done great work, but it's not how I choose to approach things, especially when writing for an audience that might contain children. And no, I'm not saying I'm better than they are, nor that I'm any better than any other "fundamentalist" or traditionalist Christian that might look at things differently. That's not the role I want to play. Rather, I do think know a bit more about gaming than, say, Jack Chick, and thus I know that D&D doesn't have to be the evil satanic gateway drug that he or some others might believe. Does this mean that I want D&D to be some sort of Narnia on steroids, complete with no God but Aslan and experience points for being holy, or whatever? No. That would be boring and stupid, and if anything, would probably draw children away from Christianity. (If you want a sure fire way of drawing your children away from Christianity, make it boring and stupid). My neo-clone is set in an explicitly Pagan world. But there are occasional glimmerings that there might be something more, and a few implicit/explicit Christian references that in my view sort of ground things. Did I finesse it perfectly? I have no idea. Or rather, probably not. But I did think it worth a try. Oh well, now that I've probably alienated almost everyone, I should also say that I hate unanimity. Religious Americans are indistinguishable from Iranians or Saudis as far as Europeans are concerned, and are the great troublemakers in the world. Being 'religious' is one of the cheapest and most stupid ways of being a goody two shoes that has been invented.
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Post by sepulchre on Apr 14, 2014 21:26:48 GMT -6
Kent, while American religiosity might be rife with fundamentalist misreadings of the scriptures or Catholic dogma substituting for scripture, that is a gross generalization of religion here. Most Roman Catholic dioceses, Protestant denominations, and much of Judaism have strived to be as rigorous as the Western Tradition allows and sometimes to a fault. While I might share your view that the general tenor of religion in America does more to exacerbate global issues, it does not represent all who are relgious. There are many religious people here and in Europe alike working for a better world.
Oakesspalding, I have to say I played with many kids who either played evil characters or DM'ed some bad-ass evil NPCs. All of those figures were expressions of the darker half of the imagination, channelled and released, but immersive not really - nobody really internalized the consequences of evil. As was mentioned above, these were villains who mirrored those of literature or film like Mad Max or Excalibur.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 22:01:28 GMT -6
As a traditionalist Catholic I would probably be described as fundamentlist by some; however, I play OD&D and thinks trying to force schools not to teach scientific theories is ridiculous and who also doesn't see lack of belief in some scientific theories as disqualifying someone from being very good in the field of science. Why? Role-playing is immersive--which is fine--but immersing oneself in the role of say, a Chaotic Evil Cleric or Assassin worshipping some evil god and looking for human sacrifices is, in my opinion, not spiritually healthy, especial for children. I suppose it depends on how you define immersion. IMO anyone who is not clear on the separation/difference between fantasy and reality should not play any RPG. I played in college with a big tough football player who cried when his character died and I have played with a nine-year old who clearly both enjoyed the game and clearly understood it was just a game. I haven't up to now had a player ever want to play an evil character and I would not do that with a child and would tell the adult to do that someplace else. As the ref I describe the bad guy(s) but I don't get into any type of immersive roleplay of evil. Now, of course, D&D doesn't mandate that you do this.... but there's a certain neutrality about the rules regarding this sort of thing that I find disturbing... The original game OD&D talks very minimally about evil, there is the evil high priest mentioned, a tiny bit here and there and that is about it, most is just the lawful, neutral, chaotic gig with a little sprinkle of evil. I see the game as being skewed in the the direction of good/lawful for the most part with neutral being acceptable and not much support for chaotic or evil. And for Christians, magic is at best questionable. Wizards are after all one of the explicitly defined sets of bad guys in the Bible The bible mentions witches and witchcraft in most translations and as best as I have been able to learn the pagan religions of the O.T., the human sacrifice and the feed your baby to the fire and witchcraft were also tied up in the use of all types of drugs and necromancy types of things. I may be wrong, of course, but OD&D style magic is pretty unrelated to what the Bible talks about as near as I can determine. I think C.S. Lewis got it right when he said that stepping into the role of a demon for Screwtape was morally draining. He was glad when it was over I would fully agree with this. Rather, I do think know a bit more about gaming than, say, Jack Chick, and thus I know that D&D doesn't have to be the evil satanic gateway drug that he or some others might believe. I would just substitute the word isn't for the bolded part. I think anyone that plays D&D that is on some "evil satanic" path were already there before they discovered D&D. Does this mean that I want D&D to be some sort of Narnia on steroids, complete with no God but Aslan and experience points for being holy, or whatever? No. That would be boring and stupid, and if anything, would probably draw children away from Christianity. (If you want a sure fire way of drawing your children away from Christianity, make it boring and stupid). Could not agree with you more about this.
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Post by scalydemon on Apr 14, 2014 22:04:59 GMT -6
Haven't read this whole thread, but some of this reminds me of the Straight Edge movement (Ian Mackaye/Minor Threat) of which I am a fan youtu.be/Ypkmp6D90KU
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 15, 2014 4:33:00 GMT -6
[Admin] Let's avoid discussing religion on these boards. It just makes people irrational and angry at each other. [/Admin]
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oldkat
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 431
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Post by oldkat on Apr 15, 2014 14:37:36 GMT -6
The D&D group at My school spent hours being interviewed by local police without Legal representation, no Miranda warnings, no parent present all in violation of Michigan Law. I refused to talk without My Dad or his Lawyer present. That's some heavy sh!t right there. At my junior high at the time the few guys I knew who had the books &c. were hassled by teachers, had their books confiscated, there were threats of suspensions, and so on. D&D went deep underground -- I mean totally off the grid -- after that (perhaps around '82 or '83, IIRC. Never heard about the game again after that...until at least 2000. Irony. Flash forward from this (above) to today: Harry Potter (& friends) are hailed as heroes and celebrities. They practice witchcraft with approval and encouragement. This message is being promoted and embraced by the general public, today, as millions of kids (and some parents) idolize the protagonists. And the books are not only being read to school children by teachers in public school classes, but is becoming required reading, as Scholastic Books pulls the strings. The road to perdition looms before us.
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Post by sepulchre on Apr 15, 2014 15:37:33 GMT -6
oldkat wrote:
...I assume you're being facetious.
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Post by rastusburne on Apr 26, 2014 6:17:09 GMT -6
There are quite a few articles - both scholarly and journalistic (and of course opinion) out there. I actually wrote a literature review that covered this topic this semester. It was a very interesting research piece to say the least.
I know the Patricia Pulling situation had a very big influence on the proliferation of negative media surrounding D&D. Obviously the 60 minutes piece had a widespread audience. It was terrible journalism but negativity and controversy sells.
Like others have said, the issue was rife with misinformation and 'experts' who gave commentary on a game they knew little to nothing about.
That BBC article that krusader74 mentioned is a great starting place; well written and informative.
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Post by rastusburne on Apr 26, 2014 6:19:49 GMT -6
That's some heavy sh!t right there. At my junior high at the time the few guys I knew who had the books &c. were hassled by teachers, had their books confiscated, there were threats of suspensions, and so on. D&D went deep underground -- I mean totally off the grid -- after that (perhaps around '82 or '83, IIRC. Never heard about the game again after that...until at least 2000. Irony. Flash forward from this (above) to today: Harry Potter (& friends) are hailed as heroes and celebrities. They practice witchcraft with approval and encouragement. This message is being promoted and embraced by the general public, today, as millions of kids (and some parents) idolize the protagonists. And the books are not only being read to school children by teachers in public school classes, but is becoming required reading, as Scholastic Books pulls the strings. The road to perdition looms before us. And interestingly Harry Potter was received with a similar moral panic by some.
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Post by oakesspalding on Apr 28, 2014 23:37:57 GMT -6
I think there are two main sorts of possible, so to speak, moral arguments against Dungeons & Dragons. The first is that it could have a potential subtle negative influence, perhaps on someone's spiritual health. As I implied in an earlier post, I have some (emphasis on some) sympathy with that argument. The argument's weakness (and also, I suppose, its strength) is that it is unfalsifiable, at least in the short term. To put it crudely, if D&D makes it more likely that you're going to go to hell, we're presumably not going to know that immediately. The second argument is that D&D may have obvious awful effects in the here and now--there's a good chance you're going to go insane, become suicidal, become homicidal, join an actual coven, etc. Now, the most famous cases and accusations made the second argument--the James Egbert disappearance (you'll kill yourself or others will kill you), Rona Jaffe's Monsters and Mazes (you'll go insane), B.A.D.D (you'll kill yourself) or Jack Chick (you'll join a coven). I think it's safe to say that there's no evidence whatsoever for those claims. However, given the novelty of the game's immersive nature, I don't think those claims were necessarily initially completely unreasonable on their face. As an example, TSR itself seems to have at first taken the claim that Egbert killed himself/was killed during a "live" game of D&D quite seriously (see Jon Peterson's Playing at the World, among other sources). I do not dispute the truth of any of the personal anecdotes given above. However, my personal experience, growing up in an admittedly liberal milieux, is that no one--kids or parents--took the negative accusations seriously, if they even thought of them at all. And in a general sense, I think it is a bit much to suggest (if anyone is doing so) that this particular "moral panic", or whatever you want to call it, had an oppressive or negative influence on the spread of the game or the game itself. As Jon Peterson reports, if anything, it was the opposite. The James Egbert case actually gave the game it's first big PR boost and helped to lift it from a niche thing for hobbyists to a more popular and general cultural phenomenon. Any publicity is good publicity, at least sometimes. I find it interesting that the movie Monsters and Mazes has been adopted by some D&D people as a kind of campy favorite. I'm not being critical. I'm one of those people. I purchased the movie for $5.99 from Amazon streaming (are you reading this, Finarvyn?). Our late 1970's group played with potato chips and half-painted figures. The guys in the movie played with gemstone statues and candles. Unrealistic, but cool, nevertheless. Why didn't we think of that? There was a cute chick in the game group. Re: our game group: If only. And that scene where the DM asked one of the players (with an 8th level character, or whatever, that he had developed over the course of years) if he wanted to cross a pit to possess a glittering treasure--the player said "yes", and the DM said, "okay, you're dead"--now if that's not Old School, what is?
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gonyaulax
Level 3 Conjurer
I still miss the 1970s . . . @:^/
Posts: 66
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Post by gonyaulax on Apr 30, 2014 15:38:56 GMT -6
I remember having a long (several days' worth), involved, and very interesting conversation along the lines that oakesspaulding talks about with a D&D-playing Catholic priest back about 1981 or so. We both ended up feeling pretty much as oakesspaulding does. But he brought up one very important fact (one that is not limited to D&D): D&D can and often does lead to a massive time commitment that a person cannot always afford. I found it hard to argue against this: I was spending about 30-40 hours a week on D&D on top of grad school full time and a part time job. For all practical purposes, that REALLY IS a negative hit! Sure glad I haven't done anything like that since then . . . Gonyaulax
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Post by oakesspalding on Apr 30, 2014 16:48:31 GMT -6
I remember having a long (several days' worth), involved, and very interesting conversation along the lines that oakesspaulding talks about with a D&D-playing Catholic priest back about 1981 or so. We both ended up feeling pretty much as oakesspaulding does. Thanks, Gonyaulax. It wasn't clear from your post whether you would agree with that assessment thirty-five years later. But it's nice to know there are at least two people that once looked at the question from a similar angle. D&D can and often does lead to a massive time commitment that a person cannot always afford...For all practical purposes, that REALLY IS a negative hit! Oh yes. That really is the most dangerous elephant in the room. The darn game can be addictive. But that is of course because it is so endlessly fascinating and fun. I think I did the same thing--spending more hours stocking dungeons than was academically healthy--for a few years in high school. But the question always is would the sort of person prone to that sort of thing have "wasted" their time with something else if they hadn't discovered D&D? I was pretty entranced by pinball, arcade games and military war games as well. And then there were the hours spent scheming and worrying about getting a date for saturday night. At least D&D wasn't as much of a money drain as some other things. In the end I'd like to think that if you're really dedicated to something that will payoff in the future--excelling in school, for example--you're not going to let anything else get in the way. But I'm not sure it's that simple. You might have the potential to be dedicated, but maybe you need a bit of extra pressure from, say, a parent to put away the dice for a bit and do your homework. On the other hand, maybe you have to learn how to manage things on your own, perhaps with the added "learning experience" of failing a course or two, or whatever. I don't know.
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Post by kent on Apr 30, 2014 17:57:09 GMT -6
To put it crudely, if D&D makes it more likely that you're going to go to hell, we're presumably not going to know that immediately. What do you mean 'go to hell'?
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Post by Finarvyn on May 1, 2014 18:56:03 GMT -6
Seems obvious. How about "lock"?
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