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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 20:47:19 GMT -6
OK, here I'll be presenting different situations where a Fighting-man is sneaking, and how would I rule it out. I would like to hear your comments and your different approches in handling OD&D 3LB stealth. We'll call our fighting-man "Aíro"
Scene 1: Aíro is sneaking into the lair of an lizard cult. He's wearing leather armor only, in order to be stealthy. He's walking down a big hallway, full of big statues of idols at the sides.
Suddenly, he hears sounds of chanting priests, heading towards the hallway, as in procession. He quickly hides behind the statue of a big idol, and waits till the procession passes by.
The priest are unto their business, and don't suspect intruders. The just cross the hallway and continue their chanting.
Aíro just waits as they pass by.
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Ruling: In this situation, I would just rule that Aíro is not detected. No roll of any kind is needed. The player sneaks successfully.
Alternatives: 1. If he would want to attack the priests, I would roll for surprise. (Pretty obvious)
2. If he would want to finish crossing the hallway while the priest are passing by, I would also roll for a surprise check. Even though he does not wish to attack them. (Maybe he's in a hurry and the procession is taking too long). This surprise roll would be used to "sneak by".
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jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
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Post by jrients on Feb 26, 2008 20:52:11 GMT -6
Seems like very reasonable resolution to me.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 20:55:14 GMT -6
I think that the "key" to OD&D surprise, is rolling only when the player takes the chance of being detected. When he takes the risk of detection.
If a player just hides, and opponents are not looking for him, there is no need of to roll. He's just hidden.
Of course, metal armor can cause noise, changing an unsuspecting foe, into a suspecting one. That's why it's important not to wear armor.
Now, things become harder when you want to rule stealth as a player wishes to pass by attentive guards, and other similar situations.
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Feb 26, 2008 21:38:49 GMT -6
I agree completely.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 22:24:23 GMT -6
This study is part of my development of a new thief class. I want to base all his skill in stealth around the surprise roll. So first, I want to study really well how surprise works in OD&D 3LB, and then start working on thief stealth.
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Feb 26, 2008 23:43:35 GMT -6
Zulgyan, are you going to offer any kind of surprise bonus for high Dexterity?
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 26, 2008 23:46:53 GMT -6
If I introduce a thief class, I'm not sure about it... I'm leaning to "yes".
I would like the thief to gain bonuses to surprise as he reaches higher levels.
And maybe give them the ability that, if they lead a sneaky expedition, they can give bonuses to others...
Still thinking.
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Feb 27, 2008 0:02:17 GMT -6
My own plan, which I may have mentioned, is to give a +1 to surprise for a Dex of 15+, provided that the entire group is not in metal armor or encumbered. Thus, a Fighting Man might want to wear lesser armor, and might also want to scout ahead of the rest of the party so that he can take advantage of his surprise bonus.
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Post by Melan on Feb 27, 2008 1:22:54 GMT -6
This is plainly a case of Move Silently vs. Move Quietly and Hide in Shadows vs. Hide in Convenient Locations. A fighter - unless decked out in metal armour or burdened with equipment - is fully expected to be able to do the second, but will be unable to do the first. Along the same analogies, we could talk about Pick Pockets vs. Steal Unguarded Objects, Climb Walls <sheer surfaces> vs. Climb a Tree or Rough Rock Face and so on.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 1:46:43 GMT -6
I have experienced a couple of problems with those distinctions when I tried to apply them in-game:
1. The differences between them become very narrow and shady in real-game situations, where you, as the referee, must the decide the concrete difference bewteen a "thief" and a "non-thief" that tries to beat the same challenge. Usually, most people at the table have a different view on what should happen. I know that the DM always has the last call, but the differences can be so subtle, that trying to determine something in a real game situation is not as simple as in theory. It usually leads to friendly discussions on what should happen. Discussions are friendly because my players are nice folks. The end up accepting my call. But I would like to have no discussions at all.
2. Non-thief players feel "disencouraged" to try out sneaky stuff. It's not that they can't, but somehow, with the presence of the thief class and his "superior level" skills, they feel they suck at it, and should not try it. It's a sort of psicological barrier that thief skills bring into the game. Players just resignate themselves and say: "I'm no thief, I can't sneak". As the referee you try to change this mentality, but it's not that easy.
3. Players usually have the feeling that the thief skill will do the work for them. Instead of clever action, some bad players just yell they are trying to do a skill and await for results. If you remove thieve skills, you are sort of "educating" this type of player, and not giving him "press the button" like abilities.
I have used the differentiations you point out, but either my players or my DMing skills fail at making them work for the health of the game in-practice. I can't deny the theory is good, but it has trouble when you need to apply it in the game. The plain LBBs OD&D way of handling it has proved to be much better for me and the players that usually show up at my table.
What is your experience with it? How would you solve this issues?
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Post by calithena on Feb 27, 2008 7:59:18 GMT -6
If he's just spying I'm with you on not rolling.
Surprise occurs on 1-2 on a d6 in the core rules. In this case you would check only for the priests.
I personally don't think I'd use the surprise system for this. I'd give Airo a free attack when he charged in, and then I'd default to whatever initiative system I was using from there, which might give Airo two free attacks up front, or might require some die roll after the initial shock.
Incidentally on the two free attacks thing - UWA 9-10:
"For example a Wyvern surprises a party of four characters when they round the corner into a large open area. It attacks as it is within striking distance as indicated by the surprise distance determination which was a 2, indicating distance between them was but 10 feet. The referee rolls a pair of six-sided dice for the wyvern and scores a 6, so it will not sting. It bites and hits. The Wyvern may attack once again before the adventurers strike back."
In other words, Wyv wins surprise, gets two free attacks before adventurers can do anything. Or he might have closed and attacked if he'd been 30 feet away instead. But here winning surprise seems to translate into also winning 'initiative', though there are no formal initiative rules in the LBBs.
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Post by calithena on Feb 27, 2008 8:01:25 GMT -6
For crossing the hallway behind them I would probably stipulate a very easy roll using whatever action resolution system I had in place.
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Post by dekelia on Feb 27, 2008 8:54:41 GMT -6
The more I DM the less I leave to the dice. I usually only use dice if the player *hasn't* been specific. If they do something reasonable (or interesting) I usually go with it or at least give them a real good chance of success.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 16:22:54 GMT -6
How would you rule these situations:Aíro is the blue guy, a fighting-man. The red guys are attentive guards armed with shields and halberds. Three torches are placed to illuminate the otherwise dark dungeon. Beyond the radius of the torches, shadowy illumination is casted. Situations:1. Aíro just wants to peep, and check how many guards are there and how are they armed. 2. Aíro wants to cross the passage and continue east, trying not to get seen. 3. Aíro wants to attack the guards by surprise.
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Post by calithena on Feb 27, 2008 16:30:33 GMT -6
1. I'd let him do it for free. If he started peering for details after my initial description, I might give the guards a small chance to spot him (1/3 or less). But if he just peeped, took what he got, and ducked back around, no check.
2. For my money that's pretty hard. He has some shadow to work with, but he's got attentive guards with no way to look but his. Probably a normal stealth check, which I have special house rules for, but in OD&D I'd make it the standard 1-2 roll, or 1-3 if he's got high dex, etc.
3. It looks like the side tunnel is 30' to the door. Assuming that's right, I'd say Airo could try to surprise them, but his first surprise round would be spent running to them (unless he wastes them with his crossbow).
Zulg, you just gave me a great idea. Online DM training for fairness! We'd all learn a lot about the craft posting situations like this and seeing how different people respond to them in the DMs chair.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 16:40:42 GMT -6
I've been thinking that a surprise attack based on running up to your opponents and hitting them with a melee weapon, needs to be started no more that 30' feet away (the surprise distance) in order to have any chance of succeeding. In this case, the guards are attentive, looking only at a passage. I would give just 1 in 6 for that, and I'm feeling generous.
Wasting them with the crossbow should have the normal surprise chance. Looks like a better tactic in this case.
Hey, I would like to see those!
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Post by coffee on Feb 27, 2008 16:42:59 GMT -6
I agree with Calithena, except on #3:
If the guards have no prior reason to suspect he's there, go ahead and roll for surprise. Airo of course can't be surprised, but the guards can (no matter how attentive they are).
In cases like this we can think of surprise as "disadvantaged" instead of completely "surprised"; the game effect is the same.
If they're not surprised, naturally, they'll get the first attacks. Airo has to close with them and they have halberds with a longer reach (I'm assuming our hero has a sword).
But if they are surprised (1 or 2 on the die; you might make it just a 1 because they're so attentive), Airo gets a free move. I, personally, would rule that if he charges he gets to attack one of them. (That's because I read a "charge move" as a movement culminating in an attack; I've never understood the guys who say 'you can make a full move or a half move plus an attack.)
Anyway, that's what I'd do; I'm looking forward to hearing what others have to say. And I especially agree with Calithena that the online DM training would be awesome! Here's an exalt for you for that!
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 16:48:36 GMT -6
I agree that peeping should be OK, as long as they are quick glances that can't get too much detail.
I'm still at doubt with case 2.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 16:54:32 GMT -6
About DM training, it should always be clear that there isn't the ONE & ONLY GYGAXIAN HOLY WAY of doing things. I certainly don't want that to become DF's discussions about initiative. But of course it's a GOOD idea!
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Post by coffee on Feb 27, 2008 16:55:19 GMT -6
The thing with case #2 is that he's going to be directly between a torch and the guards. Not much place to hide there, but if he ducks down and goes right under the torch (assuming it's up in a bracket on the wall, naturally), then he might have a chance, as Cal noted.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 17:17:54 GMT -6
Following up with Aíro, our sneaky LBB fighting-man! Cultists are bowing to the statue of their man-alligator lord, and are not particulary attentive to any other thing other than the ritual. Aíro is hiding behind a column. Red dots indicate his intended course of action. He wants to reach the door, open it, and continue his infiltration operation. Yellow dots indicate dim torches. How would you rule this?
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Post by coffee on Feb 27, 2008 17:39:27 GMT -6
Assuming the man-alligator lord is a statue of some sort, and not a being who could see our hero, I would let him do it. Of course, I would roll dice the whole way to make him sweat, but unless a wandering monster came up he should get away with it.
Now, is the man-alligator lord IS an actual being, looking in the direction Airo is moving, there's a chance of detection. But I'd only give a 1 in 6 chance, since Airo is behind the torches all the time, and that would tend to short out the viewer's night vision.
Anyway, again, that's just me.
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Post by pjork on Feb 27, 2008 17:48:47 GMT -6
Zulgyan, have an exalt for those illustrations.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 17:54:50 GMT -6
Oh yes, the man-alligator is a statue, sorry. FIXED So, coffee, you would roll 1 surprise die for the whole feat?
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 27, 2008 18:17:33 GMT -6
I'd put his "sneaky speed" at about 30' per round and would require a fairly easy check (say 4 in 6) each round to avoid detection -- guessing the scale of the map, this would probably be 2 checks total. Getting through the door unnoticed would require a separate, harder check (say 2 in 6). If he blows this roll, how badly he fails will determine when he gets noticed by the cultists: 3 = he's got the door open but hasn't gone through, 4 = he's at the door but hasn't opened it, 5-6 = the cultists notice him before he gets to the door.
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 27, 2008 18:25:26 GMT -6
Brilliant! Grades of failure according to the die number. Very nice.
I'll have to train hard to have these when I'm actually running the game. You need to be good to come up with this on the fly.
A question: do you say that those are the possible outcomes to the player?
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Post by foster1941 on Feb 27, 2008 18:36:44 GMT -6
A question: do you say that those are the possible outcomes to the player? Not normally. I don't even usually tell them the odds of success, I'll just say "roll a d6, you want a low number." The exception might be if there's only 1 or 2 players; then I might take the time to be a little more transparent and even involve the player(s) in the decision-making process: what they think their chances, and the consequences of a failed roll, should be.
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Post by calithena on Feb 27, 2008 18:48:49 GMT -6
Hi Coffee!
Thanks for the exalt! I'm not sure we disagree. I'd give Airo the surprise check on #3, but he might not get an actual surprise attack, is what I'm saying. It's hard to know without an actual initiative system on the board.
Let's say we do OD&D surprise. If Airo gets it, he definitely gets to run up and maybe gets 1 attack after he runs up.
But then there's also the issue of how much surprise time he gets. Kind of too general to hash out without more details. I'm not sure we disagree though, it depends on more information. I allow charge attacks so if he won surprise he might get to charge and move on the surprise round no matter how initiative was handled, if he had the movement to get there...
(Oh yeah, and the hard-asses in the old days were like 'move OR attack', none of this half-anything, you could hit someone or move, and that was the choice. Others let you do both or made the half-move compromise.)
Zulg, my action resolution tables will probably be in the first issue or two of revenant runes!
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Post by calithena on Feb 27, 2008 18:55:01 GMT -6
Hmm, someone must have smited me as well, I went up and down. With the alligator-cult, my call is that the sneak across is pretty easy but not quite auto success. Gotta be a chance of screwup there. I'd either just have 'bad luck' on a 1 in 6 (like coffee, wandering monster analogy) and someone turns around, or else I'd have him make a stealth roll (+40 on my tables, or else 1-5 on a d6, which comes to the same thing as the bad luck above). At the door, it's a different matter. If the door opens easy then it doesn't alter the above, but if it's a hard door I'd want a hard roll to open it quietly along with the open doors roll, say a 1-2 to open and a 1-2 not to be heard, rolled seperately for each door opening attempt.
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korgoth
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 323
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Post by korgoth on Feb 27, 2008 22:39:51 GMT -6
My own inclination on the Alligator cult (love it!) would be to call for a surprise check (2 in 6, or 3 in 6 if he has a good Dex or 1 in 6 if he's a klutz). If he gains surprise, he can sneak successfully. If he does not gain surprise, he will be detected at some point (decided by the DM; if I thought of it, I might roll a 1d6 to see how far along he gets before they spy him).
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