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Post by coffee on Feb 28, 2008 10:35:46 GMT -6
Hmm, someone must have smited me as well, I went up and down.  No, I don't think anybody smited you. What happened was, I finished writing that and then immediately hit "exalt". But I hadn't realized that Zulgyan had posted at the same time, so he got the exalt (which he deserves for the thread anyway, so I'm not too bummed.) However, you can only exalt once per hour or so, so I had to wait until the next time I was online to get you the exalt I said I would. And I now have. Sorry about the confusion. |
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Post by coffee on Feb 28, 2008 10:45:09 GMT -6
Oh yes, the man-alligator is a statue, sorry. FIXED  So, coffee, you would roll 1 surprise die for the whole feat? Since they're not paying attention to anything but their prayers, yes. Just one should be okay. After all, it's not specifically a trap, this room. If it was keyed that "the faithful (or the guards, or whatever) will immediately attack anyone who enters the room" type of thing, then that would be different. But the encounter seems to be set up so that the clever player should be able to get around it. A bigger question that rears its head is "What is the purpose of this encounter?" Are the cultists there to chop our hero into chutney, or are they here to summon their Alligator God to wipe out the rest of humanity? Or something else? One of the things I dearly love about roleplaying, not just OD&D, is the infinite variety possible. You could take that room, just as you described, and give it to 20 different DMs and have 20 different outcomes, 20 different back stories, 20 different concepts of the alligator religion (and, with OD&D, 20 different sets of stats for the cultists!). (Sorry to hijack your thread; I'll ease off now.) |
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 28, 2008 13:17:27 GMT -6
I think that a good criteria to follow when ruling on the fly is "in dubio pro player". I case of doubt, favor the player.
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Post by coffee on Feb 28, 2008 13:39:51 GMT -6
I think that a good criteria to follow when ruling on the fly is "in dubio pro player". I case of doubt, favor the player. I agree. Though there are a lot of old time (but not necessarily old school) DMs out there who think otherwise. Without players, we're just a bunch of guys doodling on graph paper and dreaming our lives away. With players, we are Dungeon Masters (or whatever term you prefer). I know which I'd rather be... |
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Post by murquhart72 on Feb 28, 2008 15:29:22 GMT -6
Ruling: In this situation, I would just rule that Aíro is not detected. No roll of any kind is needed. The player sneaks successfully. Alternatives:1. If he would want to attack the priests, I would roll for surprise. (Pretty obvious) 2. If he would want to finish crossing the hallway while the priest are passing by, I would also roll for a surprise check. Even though he does not wish to attack them. (Maybe he's in a hurry and the procession is taking too long). This surprise roll would be used to "sneak by". I agree, although I also like the 1-2 out of 6 rule: if something could happen, it will on a 1-2 (1d6). Including successfully sneaking around (or getting caught). |
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Post by philotomy on Jul 6, 2008 6:12:58 GMT -6
 Situations:1. Aíro just wants to peep, and check how many guards are there and how are they armed. 2. Aíro wants to cross the passage and continue east, trying not to get seen. 3. Aíro wants to attack the guards by surprise. I can't believe I missed this cool thread. - (1) Aíro may peep automatically. If he continues to peep, I'd start rolling for the guards to notice him, increasing the chance the more he peeps. (Maybe start at 1:6, and keep incrementing.)
- (2) Unless the guards are distracted, this would be *very* tough. Aíro will be backlit by the torch at the intersection, even if he sticks to the shadows. I'd tell Aíro he think it's almost certain he'd be seen if he tries, and see what he comes up with. If he just goes for it with no real plan, he's seen. If he goes for it, but the player says something like he'll wait for the guards to talk to each other (presumably looking at one another), I'd give him a slim chance (1:6). If he comes up with something really creative I'd give him a better chance.
- (3) Surprise roll, but only for the guards, since Aíro can't be surprised.
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Post by philotomy on Jul 6, 2008 6:20:40 GMT -6
Following up with Aíro, our sneaky LBB fighting-man!  Cultists are bowing to the statue of their man-alligator lord, and are not particulary attentive to any other thing other than the ritual. Aíro is hiding behind a column. Red dots indicate his intended course of action. He wants to reach the door, open it, and continue his infiltration operation. Yellow dots indicate dim torches. How would you rule this? I'd allow Aíro to make it to the last pillar without a roll. He's in the shadows, never back-lit, he's being stealthy (I assume he's not decked out in full-kit and hard boots -- if he is, I'd ask for a d6-based check), and the cultists are focused elsewhere. However, attaining the door, opening it, and going through without anyone noticing is a more difficult proposition. I'd give him a 2:6 chance of accomplishing this. (Also, I like Foster's "graded failure" approach on getting through the door.) |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 6, 2008 6:52:53 GMT -6
Hmm, someone must have smited me as well, I went up and down. I kind of wish it would say who did it so that we'd have a clue what was good and/or bad. I think that each time you EXALT or SMITE it would be nice to give it a mention as well, but I suspect many posters just click and move on without a word as to why. (I know that if I was brilliant or a moron I'd be at least faintly curious as to why.  ) I've seen posters with big Karma totals and wonder "now, what did they ever post?" or others with tiny Karma and think "hey, this guy is always saying something clever ... what gives?" I'd EXALT myself for my own brilliance, Cal, but they won't let me do that so I'll EXALT you instead on "general principles" and just in case you got an unwarrented SMITE.  |
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Post by dwayanu on Jul 6, 2008 8:36:27 GMT -6
In many cases, the player's looking to take advantage of a momentary slip in the opponents' alertness; the key is recognizing when that occurs.
So, I'm inclined to determine that first. How long one must wait for an opening may be no big deal (apart from the sneaker's own endurance for staying stealthy and alert). On the other hand, a longer time may risk discovery by other foes -- or there may be pressing business elsewhere.
Even peeking around a corner is likely to give up the jig if someone happens to be looking, so the first step is to listen. That should yield enough information to recognize a good time to peek. The peek in turn makes further listening sufficient to identify the best time for a further move.
Other times, the big question is how long subjects will remain preoccupied. This is trickier, because the moment of alertness comes up after the sneaking has begun. The big deal in terms of reaction by the sneaker (assuming he's keeping an eye on the foes) is how far he gets from cover.
I would base the chance of discovery in each moment of alertness on the latter. The longer the route, the more such moments are likely to arise.
Pausing to observe proceedings should enable a player to judge about how often the subjects look around.
So far, I've simply assumed that the sneaker keeps quiet enough to escape detection that way. In practice, I normally give a 1/6 chance of an accident that blows the cover. That could vary with circumstances, if those are really notable.
Sometimes detection is nearly certain. For instance, guards might be keyed to notice movement (even of shadows) in their peripheral vision and notice unconsciously tiny sounds that "feel wrong." In such cases, the big question is how far along/away the sneaker gets before the guards react. I like to use the "encounter distance" rule.
Scent can be the toughest sense to avoid. Many animals are keen to smells, and soldiers long alert for ambushes may be so as well. Cultural or personal customs can make a difference; city folk might smell notably strange to a savage hunter, whose own scent might go unnoticed by civilized intruders on his domain.
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Post by apparition13 on Jul 6, 2008 16:44:50 GMT -6
Zulg, you just gave me a great idea. Online DM training for fairness! We'd all learn a lot about the craft posting situations like this and seeing how different people respond to them in the DMs chair. Good idea. How would you rule these situations:Aíro is the blue guy, a fighting-man. The red guys are attentive guards armed with shields and halberds. Three torches are placed to illuminate the otherwise dark dungeon. Beyond the radius of the torches, shadowy illumination is casted. Situations:1. Aíro just wants to peep, and check how many guards are there and how are they armed. I like rolling dice, just because they sometimes trigger interesting ideas. In this case, I'd likely roll % (or more likely have the player do it), with a very low roll (under 10 at a minimum, probably under 5) indicating a mishap of some sort, and a 00 indicating something weird. In the first case, it could be a guard glimpsing something suspicious, a rat or mouse worrying his feet or something along those lines; the result being to potentially highten the guards attention. In the second it could be the door opening and the guards being summoned inside, or something else along those lines that might help him out. If he crosses standing he'll be back-lit, so not much of a chance at all. If he listens for a moment when the guards seem distracted (they seem to be having an animated discussion) to rush across, or crawls, or something else, the chances would be better. Again a % roll, 00 indicating something special, and a fairly high chance of detection (in the 60-70, or 4/6 range) modified by choices. I'd go with a surprize roll, modified by the guards attentiveness. If he waits for a conversation, they would be less attentive; if on alert because they are expecting trouble, more attentive. (I might roll seperately for each guard as well). If he gets surprize he can be on them and will have initiative; if they are 0 level they could be out of the fight without raising an alarm. If he screams as he charges, I would increase his chance of surprize, but at the cost of alerting someone behind the door. (I'd probably do a % roll just because, with anything but an 01-bad luck or 00-good luck being meaningless.) If he sneaks up along the wall, so the torches on the walls disrupt the guard's vision, and then attacks from closer, I'd give a bonus to surprize, though probably seperate rolls as the far guard will be less light-blinded than the near. (The case with one surprized and the other not is actually the most interesting tactically; so I'd hope for that one.) This is actually a case where a "hide in shadows" "power" could work, as they would have no chance to detect him if he succeeded in any of the three cases, virtually guaranteeing surprize in 3. In the case of the cultists, I'd again use %s, with a very low chance of detection, but role-play the whole thing to up the tension, with the door being the real risk. A bad roll could mean something other than detection, however. Perhaps the rite is to end in a sacrifice, and a struggling victim is brought into view: what do you do? Perhaps the door bangs open, and someone barges in yelling and now everyone is milling around. A really bad result could be the door opens just as Airo reaches it. |
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Post by ragnorakk on Mar 13, 2009 14:06:21 GMT -6
Wow! The diagrams are brilliant!
I wish I has something to add here, but I'd probably rule the two situations much as Philotomy wrote, particularly
in the second bearing in mind the difficulty of the door, the latch, the hinge, etc...
What if it was stuck! No way to get it open quietly!
Man! Make more pictures!
On the original post you mentioned that you wanted to expand the 'purview' of a
surprise - like using a surprise to avoid an encounter, and I think that's a pretty
interesting idea too - have you followed that line of thinking?
(excuse me - gotta exalt!)
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Post by kent on Aug 30, 2011 16:05:07 GMT -6
How would you rule these situations:Aíro is the blue guy, a fighting-man. The red guys are attentive guards armed with shields and halberds. Three torches are placed to illuminate the otherwise dark dungeon. Beyond the radius of the torches, shadowy illumination is casted. Situations:1. Aíro just wants to peep, and check how many guards are there and how are they armed. 2. Aíro wants to cross the passage and continue east, trying not to get seen. 3. Aíro wants to attack the guards by surprise. Off the top of my head: 1. Any Thief OR High INT say 15+ AUTOMATIC SUCCESSEveryone else SUCCESS 1-4 on d6. Wearing helmet SUCCESS 1 on d6 2. Hard because of dim backlight. Thief Hide in Shadows for SUCCESS |
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Post by howandwhy99 on Sept 6, 2011 16:55:51 GMT -6
My code is different than yours, but here's how I would run the different situations listed.
1.
PC classes like F-M who do not improve their move silently ability make sound according to movement type, speed, and other factors like skin or clothing. A human-sized biped walking on hard leather (boots) clops like a donkey on stone, but more quietly on earth or vegetation. Moving silently, a active change, slows his speed to half and lowers the sound he makes. This remains in effect until he states otherwise and a single d6 roll is made for the duration at start to determine the point on the sound scale.
The priests ability to hear is a passive constant with modifiers from things like headwear and stuffing wax in one's ears. Talking (chanting) also lowers listening ability. The priests could actively attempt to listen, but they aren't on guard, so activeness doesn't apply. Since all are chanting their modified chance of hearing is compared to the sound made by the F-M sneaking and no roll is made. The F-M would gain surprise based upon the comparison and the Player in this case elects to remain under cover.
For the 2 alternatives: the F-M has surprise, if he attacks. He loses cover, if he attempts to sneak by in front of the priests. They would not hear him to start, but their passive viewing allows recognition of what passes in their field of vision.
2.
I don't know your rules for shadowy illumination. My light sources project a spherical nimbus wherein viewers with line of sight (be they inside or outside of the sphere) can recognize shapes and colors that are inside of it.
For the 3 cases: A = active searching by viewer creatures (arms and armor mentioned don't apply, but visors would). If the gold lines indicates the edge of the nimbus the guards do not see Airo, but then he does not see them either. (BTW, these torches are poorly positioned in this case.) If Airo is within the sphere of light, the guards spot him automatically. If they are in a sphere, Airo spots them automatically. If both, then both etc.
B. Same as A really only Airo may not look down the hallway to see what is there.
C. Melee surprise depends on surprise distance here. Airo holds surprise as do the guards on him as neither knows the other is there. Airo could run around the corner to attack no matter what, but distance then matters on whether this is a surprise round action or not. If he can reach them in one combat round, he gains surprise. If Airo is loud before popping out of the shadows, he loses surprise. If he were a ranger he could roll for more surprise rounds. Missile attack surprise is held if this is the called action, but remember: neither the player nor Airo have any evidence the guards are there. The shot is made regardless, but he would have surprise for it.
3.
I would rule Airo is in line of sight of the cone of vision from the rear left cultists when he begins his movement. This has to do with lighting again, but he is seen passively automatically. Hiding in shadows means being stationary in a shadowy area. If behind the pillars is all considered a shadowy area, he would be seen when moving. A thief could attempt to move in shadows unseen, but would need to make a roll if not already covered by a Hide in Shadows roll for the duration of an ongoing attempt.
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