Is there any fun in armour repair / replacement?

[smubee]

I'm assuming that at least one person here has at least toyed with the concept of armour needing to be repaired or replaced. The amount of damage that a character takes over the course of an adventure would surely justify. Or, does this add a layer of bookkeeping and realism that isn't fun?

Example: Every 10 rounds of combat, your armour diminishes slightly and needs repair to bring you back to "full health" the way that HP works?

Would love to hear if anyone's tried this.

[Piper]

I played around with it. To my way of thinking this rule added a layer of bookkeeping to the game without adding any fun. My players seemed to agree, nobody complained when I removed it from the campaign the next session.

Now, I realize some referees are aiming for more historical accuracy and this rule may be great for their campaign. It simply wasn’t my cup of tea.

[Finarvyn]

"Real world" stuff in a fantasy campaign is a tricky balance. I've had some games where I force my archers to count arrows, some where they don't. Some where they track food and water, some where they don't. I see armor maintenance as that sort of thing, where if we did it every time it would get old fast but in certain campaigns or certain situations the attrition of armor through wear-and-tear could be a lot of fun. I'm thinking mostly of those survival or post-apocalyptic style games.

[hamurai]

I've had a house-rule at some point which allowed armour to be sacrificed to prevent the damage from one hit, same as shields in the additional rule that shields can be broken to prevent damage. As a last resort, this worked.

The armour would then need a professional smith to be repaired. If the adventurers were to patch it up, it would protect as one step lower in the "armour ladder", while still slowing down as before.

[tombowings]

I've always assumed that fixing up and repairing armor was already included in the character's monthly expenses (the standard 1% of their total experience).

[ThrorII]

Jul 13, 2023 22:07:54 GMT -6 hamurai said:

I've had a house-rule at some point which allowed armour to be sacrificed to prevent the damage from one hit, same as shields in the additional rule that shields can be broken to prevent damage. As a last resort, this worked.

The armour would then need a professional smith to be repaired. If the adventurers were to patch it up, it would protect as one step lower in the "armour ladder", while still slowing down as before.

Yes, we use the "Shields Shall Be Sundered" rules as well. It works, as opposed to an 'armor degradation' rule, because it is a "one-and-done" rule (loose your shield to avoid damage that round), whereas armor degradation is a book keeping requirement for players.

[waysoftheearth]

Hey smubee great to hear from you

Here's something i've been ruminating on for a while, but never tested in actual play:

Instead of having a fixed armor class, suppose for a moment that (mostly for players and major NPCs) AC is more a dynamic resource, like HP.

Each player writes down AC and HP on their character sheet.

Each time a player (with AC better than 9) gets hit, they can actively decide whether their armor ablates the hit.
If the player decides to "use" armor to ablate a hit, the player suffers no damage but instead reduces AC by 1 notch.

This continues until armor is completely beaten out, and then players will have to take hp damage instead.
The player strategy element of this is that the player can choose to take the low hp hits as damage, and ablate the high hp hits with a limited armor resource.
Essentially, it adds an extra option and element of resource management for the fighters. Which some players will like, others less so.

A natural side effect of this is that armor will get "worn out" as it soaks hits, and so then require replacement or repair during between adventure town time. The latter is probably best handled as an abstract cost... perhaps 50% of whatever a new piece of armor would cost?

The ref might rule than no armor can be reduced by more than half, or below AC 8, or whatever.
The ref might get fancy and rule that armor (i.e., excluding shields or helms) can't ablate more damage than it has armor pips remaining; any excess damage being passed thru to the wearer.
The ref might rule that a 6 hp hit is a head hit and can only be ablated if a helmet is worn, and perhaps then only one time.

Just a half-baked idea that I'd be interested to test some time...

[bobjester0e]

I'd not thought about it too much, since I know as DM I'll be the only one keeping track of it.

That said, I would simply add a bit to the upkeep description to remind players that we are aiming for verisimilitude by way of description more than adding another layer of bookkeeping.

"So you finally make your way into town, sore, bedraggled and sorely in need of ointments and the bathes. When you get a room, you send a servant to the blacksmith with your weapons & armor for sharpening and repair..."

Or whatever, depending on your characters' level of wealth & the services that are supported in your village/town/city.

[smubee]

Jul 13, 2023 23:39:32 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I've always assumed that fixing up and repairing armor was already included in the character's monthly expenses (the standard 1% of their total experience).

I was thinking more-so for dramatic purpose... Like if mid-combat someone's sword breaks, etc. Now they have to scramble to find something makeshift or retreat.

Just an idea!

[smubee]

Jul 14, 2023 2:39:24 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

Hey smubee great to hear from you

Here's something i've been ruminating on for a while, but never tested in actual play:

Instead of having a fixed armor class, suppose for a moment that (mostly for players and major NPCs) AC is more a dynamic resource, like HP.

Each player writes down AC and HP on their character sheet.

Each time a player (with AC better than 9) gets hit, they can actively decide whether their armor ablates the hit.
If the player decides to "use" armor to ablate a hit, the player suffers no damage but instead reduces AC by 1 notch.

This continues until armor is completely beaten out, and then players will have to take hp damage instead.
The player strategy element of this is that the player can choose to take the low hp hits as damage, and ablate the high hp hits with a limited armor resource.
Essentially, it adds an extra option and element of resource management for the fighters. Which some players will like, others less so.

A natural side effect of this is that armor will get "worn out" as it soaks hits, and so then require replacement or repair during between adventure town time. The latter is probably best handled as an abstract cost... perhaps 50% of whatever a new piece of armor would cost?

The ref might rule than no armor can be reduced by more than half, or below AC 8, or whatever.
The ref might get fancy and rule that armor (i.e., excluding shields or helms) can't ablate more damage than it has armor pips remaining; any excess damage being passed thru to the wearer.
The ref might rule that a 6 hp hit is a head hit and can only be ablated if a helmet is worn, and perhaps then only one time.

Just a half-baked idea that I'd be interested to test some time...

Nice to hear from you as well! Being the father of a two-and-a-half year old along with other responsibilities keep me from being as active in all of my hobbies as I once was, though I'm now finding a little more free time as he continues to phase out how much of my full-attention he requires

Re: your reply,

This is exactly what I was contemplating. I love your idea of trading 1 AC point instead of taking HP damage. OD&D combat in general is so abstract that what we're talking about here is probably "cooked into" the math of it anyhow.

Still fun to think about! And I do think there is some version of this that does add an additional layer of fun & strategy for both the player and DM.

[machfront]

Campaign-specific or rule set-specific.
That is to say, if items such as armor are so incredibly important that taking care of them is paramount wherein just replacing easily isn’t the go-to say a slightly realistic Robin Hood game or some such) and everyone at the table wishes such as part and parcel to the overall challenge.
Also if the group wishes to indulge in a more ‘realistic’ or simulationist rules set…even pared down…like, say, MERP instead of full RoleMaster or GURPS with a good deal of options ‘turned off’ etc. then perhaps.

Otherwise, (indeed, to my mind just about any iteration of D&D outside of super hardcore AD&D1E), I’d not worry about it. I’d/we’d assume it’s “just done” and subsumed in amongst “whatever” (as others have said, like ‘expenses’ etc.
Honestly, I’d assume the exact same…but not even do the math nor take away “x amount”.
But, Im lazy….also….I never recall being entranced nor excited in fantasy novels or comics or movies when characters bean-counted and repaired their armor or fed their horses, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah….so, I’m not going to play a game…..a GAME of fantasy action adventure that sweats over that either….

[mgtremaine]

The campaign "upkeep expenses" was super important in the original game, we know this from various Q/A's. Rob said Gary would periodically check your sheet to make sure you had done the right thing. So I'm with tombowings and mach on this it's baked into the upkeep rules.

-Mike

[tkdco2]

I'm all for upkeep (and training) expenses, but some of my players hated it. A lot of folks I gamed with were as stingy as the greediest dragon. They'd make Smaug look like Santa Claus!

Plus, it's more bookkeeping for me.

[Piper]

Jul 14, 2023 11:04:22 GMT -6 smubee said:

I was thinking more-so for dramatic purpose... Like if mid-combat someone's sword breaks, etc. Now they have to scramble to find something makeshift or retreat.

One relatively easy way to implement this idea would be a critical miss type roll. If the attacking player rolls a 1 on his ”to hit” roll he must immediately roll a save for the weapon he used. 

You could even create a simple table of random consequences: Weapon is now minus one to hit, weapon has been dropped costing one combat round to recover, weapon is destroyed, etc. 

If you really like that concept, you can flip it around and have armor makes saves when the player receives a return attack and a natural 20 is rolled.

Incorporating your ideas into die rolls already being made will reduce the effect on game flow less than that a completely separate system.

 Just an idea.  

[smubee]

I love that idea as well.

[talysman]

Jul 13, 2023 23:39:32 GMT -6 tombowings said:

I've always assumed that fixing up and repairing armor was already included in the character's monthly expenses (the standard 1% of their total experience).

Same here. One of the consequences of failing to pay expenses could be that any armor worn is considered damaged (armor is 1 point less effective.)

Jul 13, 2023 22:07:54 GMT -6 hamurai said:

I've had a house-rule at some point which allowed armour to be sacrificed to prevent the damage from one hit, same as shields in the additional rule that shields can be broken to prevent damage. As a last resort, this worked.

The armour would then need a professional smith to be repaired. If the adventurers were to patch it up, it would protect as one step lower in the "armour ladder", while still slowing down as before.

I've toyed with the same idea, although I'd say that armor is unlikely to be totally destroyed, the way a shield would. I would still roll the damage dice to see if the result is 5+. If so, the armor becomes damaged, or badly damaged if it is already damaged. Damaged armor is one point worse, as mentioned above. Badly damaged armor is two points worse. If it gets damaged again, it's still two points worse, but the armor can't be repaired, only broken down for scrap to repair other armor.

I figure a condition system like that isn't too hard to track: players just add the word "damaged" in front of the armor listed on the character sheet, or add the word "badly" in front of "damaged", and draw a line through any armor that can't be repaired.

[machfront]

Jul 15, 2023 10:22:17 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

The campaign "upkeep expenses" was super important in the original game, we know this from various Q/A's. Rob said Gary would periodically check your sheet to make sure you had done the right thing. So I'm with tombowings and mach on this it's baked into the upkeep rules.

-Mike

To be brutally honest with myself and others…as much as I respect the man and my esteemed rpg elders, I’d likely not enjoyed to game with Gary and would have frequently rolled my eyes at him over book-keeping at the expense of what actually makes the game fun (to me, and everyone I’ve ever known, ever…even newbies with no preconceived or new-school notions) (IMHO). Heheh

[tetramorph]

I factor this into the abstraction of "upkeep."

I could imagine enforcing something like this in some unique situation that would obviously call it forth.

Like a player saying he is going to use his shield for some dangerous purpose and, failing, it damages his shield so significantly he must repair or replace it as a concrete action in addition to the abstraction of up keep.

[Porphyre]

Monthly expenses
"Shields shall be splintered" house rules.

[rainflower]

I've seen that done in other games as armor that has hit points, and when it's gone the armor is gone. Or, if certain attacks or weapons hit the armor it is destroyed. Other games have used something similar to what you described, having the armor wear down over time and lose its effectiveness. I did think about the idea once, where a crit would diminish an armor's AC by 1, or something else could cause the armor to lose effecitveness, like others have mentioned here. Magical armor would be immune to this. I never used it tho. Personally I find armor that degrades in video games very annoying. Mostly because it becomes one of those set-back resources, where getting the resource again actually costs using the resource. It can be an annoying cycle. Kind of like older computer games that had heavy resource management and you could play a few hours and not get very far because of this. It might have a place in a post-apocalyptic type setting, but for a D&D game I think I would want to move the story along, or focus on other resources (like those precious torches...which I've never tracked before haha. Maybe sometime...) 

[dicebro]

Not fun, unless it’s a green slime or a rust creature. Or something specific happens to it. But I think that the 1% upkeep rule is a way to account for normal wear and tear.

[dicebro]

Jul 16, 2023 5:42:26 GMT -6 machfront said:

Jul 15, 2023 10:22:17 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

The campaign "upkeep expenses" was super important in the original game, we know this from various Q/A's. Rob said Gary would periodically check your sheet to make sure you had done the right thing. So I'm with tombowings and mach on this it's baked into the upkeep rules.

-Mike

To be brutally honest with myself and others…as much as I respect the man and my esteemed rpg elders, I’d likely not enjoyed to game with Gary and would have frequently rolled my eyes at him over book-keeping at the expense of what actually makes the game fun (to me, and everyone I’ve ever known, ever…even newbies with no preconceived or new-school notions) (IMHO). Heheh

Maybe Gary only checked the sheets of the players who were good at “gaming” his system! Lol.

[Mordorandor]

Jul 15, 2023 10:22:17 GMT -6 mgtremaine said:

The campaign "upkeep expenses" was super important in the original game, we know this from various Q/A's. Rob said Gary would periodically check your sheet to make sure you had done the right thing. So I'm with tombowings and mach on this it's baked into the upkeep rules.

-Mike

Indeed.

*Hand wave*

"Done. Now back to the action. Next week we can play Forges & Fabrications, the newest supplement out for Papers & Paychecks."

[xerxez]

Never tried it.

Like some ideas here though-

Could run it so if someone is hit by a 20, they have a chance of armor failure/ breakage, maybe a straight 50/50. If it breaks, it's AC is reduced by 1-2 points and needs to be repaired at half the armor value next town visit.

I also kind of like the idea of absorption of damage.

As aside, has anyone played Forbidden Lands?

It uses a D6 system.

You use multiple dice of different colors- if you attempt a feat or action you roll relevant dice which are related to your skill, the attribute used, and any gear used.

If you roll any ones they are "banes" and have potential negative effects. However if you roll any sixes at all, you did succeed, with multiple sixes indicating greater success as the GM decides how that plays out.

If you do not get any sixes, you do not have success but the banes have no effect...unless you "push the roll". You get another attempt but even if you succeed your previous banes count against you as well as any new ones...and if these were related to your gear dice, it usually denotes equipment failure! Sword breaks, armor ruined, rope snaps, etc.

I ran a few games and it was fun but also challenging to me to arbitrate results on the fly!

If you got banes on attribute and push a roll it basically depletes the attribute for awhile, fatigue or shock if you will.

[machfront]

To reiterate:
Man, oh man. I remember those exciting bits of all those classic stories, mythology, books, comics, movies wherein mundane armor was mundanely repaired!
I can’t wait til that happens in a GAME of fantasy action I’m playing in (or refereeing)!
What joy!
🙄

I’d SO much rather be an accountant than someone interested in action, intrigue, fun and adventure!
Oh. Wait.
No.
WTF would?!?

[howandwhy99]

I think it's an essential element. But not only arms and armor, almost every component in the game has an Age and Lifespan stat. Like racial level limits, not everything in the game is designed to function in every aspect of the game. Armor needs to be fit to a character, stuff like heavy armor by a smith. Arms are typically human constructions, so not all shapes and sizes of creatures can wield them as intended.

Tracking age and wear is simple enough, especially in the early levels. Time is progressing too slowly for aging to really make a difference. It's the back end where long term damage usually comes into play.

[smubee]

Aug 14, 2023 6:21:42 GMT -6 machfront said:

To reiterate:
Man, oh man. I remember those exciting bits of all those classic stories, mythology, books, comics, movies wherein mundane armor was mundanely repaired!
I can’t wait til that happens in a GAME of fantasy action I’m playing in (or refereeing)!
What joy!
🙄

I’d SO much rather be an accountant than someone interested in action, intrigue, fun and adventure!
Oh. Wait.
No.
WTF would?!?

Just seems odd to buy one set of armour and one weapon and you're set for life. No?

[tkdco2]

Also consider that the PCs are constantly upgrading their gear as they level up. Normal weapons and armor are discarded for +1 weapons and armor, which in turn are eventually replaced by more powerful magic items.

[howandwhy99]

To put it another way, the defining characteristic of an RPG is the players don't ever know the rules - even while they are trying to account for them while gaming everything. Pretty soon, all that they imagine feels real (persistent), to matter (have consequences), and is being tracked (persisting through a series of consequences).

Baseline rule system design begins by accounting for any reasonably realistic action in the simulation. The Players don't know whether or not they can destroy weapons or armor, but this seems sensible. By applying rules for damage already in place elsewhere the DM can feed all the existing system detail into this new game component. Which means, lots of (unknown) player options to discover and a variety of surprising outcomes they can take note of. That's fun and exciting and a real gamer's challenge.

[machfront]

Aug 14, 2023 17:52:53 GMT -6 smubee said:

Aug 14, 2023 6:21:42 GMT -6 machfront said:

To reiterate:
Man, oh man. I remember those exciting bits of all those classic stories, mythology, books, comics, movies wherein mundane armor was mundanely repaired!
I can’t wait til that happens in a GAME of fantasy action I’m playing in (or refereeing)!
What joy!
🙄

I’d SO much rather be an accountant than someone interested in action, intrigue, fun and adventure!
Oh. Wait.
No.
WTF would?!?

Just seems odd to buy one set of armour and one weapon and you're set for life. No?

Who said that’s what’s happening? To say nothing of upgrading with magic stuff?
Also….who cares? If they never “upgrade”, they’re certainly repairing or replacing.
But….tracking it all completely and totally in game?
Fun? Intrigue? Mystery? Excitement?

Yeah. No.
YAWN!