Campaigns with just Fighting-Men

[cadriel]

So. Let's say one were to run a campaign with the LBBs that used the simple rule: just Fighting-Men. People can have different races, different backgrounds (I'm a fan of these: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2014/08/20-backgrounds-for-od.html), different ability scores; but they're all Fighting-Men.

What needs to be adjusted to keep the game enjoyable in a campaign? Does healing at higher levels become a problem? Do you need to add any additional options aside from things like background to the game to prevent it from feeling like all the characters are the same? Has anyone here run a game with just Fighting-Men, either intentionally or as a coincidence, and what do you think is good and bad about it?

[naiyor]

I think you would need to ensure they mix up ranged attacks and abilities and have a consistent and accessible source of healing potions and clergy to heal/resurrect. I have had groups heavy on fighters. Could definitely be a fun slug-fest.

[sixdemonbag]

You really only lose the ability to cast spells and turn undead. It makes things more challenging from a combat perspective, which could be fun. If the goal is to keep magic availability roughly the same, then the only modification I can think of would be to throw in a couple extra magic potions here and there.

But really, magic (intelligent) swords more than make up for any supernatural ability losses. Don't be shy with those smart swords!

[hamurai]

You could every FM have their own specialty - an archer could have the chance to fire multiple arrows per round, similar to the multi-attack of the FM against weaker enemies. A barbarian with high dex and no armour might be allowed to use their DEX bonus to lower their AC, a knight might double the shield AC bonus, etc.

[Finarvyn]

It would mean using supplements and SR articles, but you could go with Fighting-Man plus any sub-classes of Fighting Man. (Essentially, peek into AD&D's PH.) That could mean the ranger and paladin. Maybe barbarian?

[waysoftheearth]

May 5, 2023 9:22:50 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I think you would need to ensure they mix up ranged attacks and abilities and have a consistent and accessible source of healing potions and clergy to heal/resurrect. I have had groups heavy on fighters. Could definitely be a fun slug-fest.

The imho undesirable “need” for mass clerical and/or magical healing can be mitigated by adapting the CM rule that heroes ignore fewer than 4 simultaneous normal hits for all FM.

[machfront]

All four Musketeers were fighters and were certainly very different in abilities, specialities, etc.
I think an all fighter campaign would be super fun, if everyone is on the same page.

I suppose it relies on the other fantasy elements of the rest of the camapaign. (Magic, blah, blah)

I do agree, ability scores (and roleplaying) and ‘backgrounds’ (something I always utilize in my games, actually), help and would matter even more here.
I’ve often wished to use 3LBB OD&D fighter-only game in the vein of Robin Hood relying mainly on such things.
I don’t even see a reason to need paladins, rangers and thieves in such a game.

But, yes, again….everyone is going to need to be on the same page and well aware that RP and ability scores and backgrounds (or some such) will be important to help give everyone a ‘niche’ or something of the sort.

One may wish to implement something along the lines of Dyson’s “sub-classes” (not in the traditional sense) from his zine: Dyson’s Dodecahedron Vol 1, Issue 7.
So you have things such as…one fighter is a ‘hulk’ with +2 melee damage whilst another is an ‘archer’ with a +1 to hit and damage with bows and another is a ‘sentinel’ who possesses a -1 to being surprised.

[howandwhy99]

I don't think you really need to change anything at all about the game. What the players need to do is change their focus of play so they don't interact with magic or deific elements as they would before. Fighting Man related elements of those, sure. But not the majority of it.

On the game board make sure there are enough clerics and magic users in the towns and villages the players adventure in, for services. And try and include the same which may be associates or hirelings to the PCs.

It may not seem so, but this is actually easier than the all-magic-user or all-cleric party where they have to hire a crew of warriors.

[skars]

I have been toying around with the idea of doing the same but then giving each player access to a magical relic (ala D&D cartoon) to shape their abilities a bit. Then i'd have the relic essentially be a henchman NPC for all intents and purposes, gaining a portion of experience earned, leveling up, etc. This would give the fighting man access to arcane and divine magic should they choose.

[rayotus]

I think this would be cool - in a Conan inspired way. I don't think fighters need magic weapons or anything. I would treat all "iron" as magic for the purposes of damage. I would make evil casters and magical monsters all allergic to iron and I would say the more powerful they are the more likely they have weaknesses via corruption or enslavement to particular extra-planar power. I put out some thoughts along these lines when I wrote Gygax 75 by way of my examples. However, in that conception I did make room for PCs that were casters. I was thinking a two class system - fighters and casters. No thieves, no Demi-humans, no clerics, dump the cleric spells into the MU table, possibly make undead turning into a second level spell.

[naiyor]

May 6, 2023 1:26:06 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

May 5, 2023 9:22:50 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I think you would need to ensure they mix up ranged attacks and abilities and have a consistent and accessible source of healing potions and clergy to heal/resurrect. I have had groups heavy on fighters. Could definitely be a fun slug-fest.

The imho undesirable “need” for mass clerical and/or magical healing can be mitigated by adapting the CM rule that heroes ignore fewer than 4 simultaneous normal hits for all FM.

I agree with his possibility. I have thought of this too...never tried it out and will it mean that as long as you don't fight more than 3 men? you are invincible? I have a beautiful image of swathes of goblins being hacked apart 3 at a time lol

[waysoftheearth]

May 7, 2023 10:56:51 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I agree with his possibility. I have thought of this too...never tried it out and will it mean that as long as you don't fight more than 3 men? you are invincible? I have a beautiful image of swathes of goblins being hacked apart 3 at a time lol

The way I translate it for D&D-land is: heroes automatically recover up to three normal hits in the post combat rest (the portion of a 10-minute exploration turn remaining post-combat as the game shifts from combat-time back to exploration-time). Extending this to fighters (only) of all levels is something like: fighters recover up to one normal hit for each experience level in the post combat rest.

The net result is that fighters can continue to fight another day without the needing clerics or loads of potions. Moreover, clerical healing is then reserved for non-trivial cuts and grazes (i.e., fantastic rather than normal hits). A hero isn't invincible against three normal types, but they would have to collectively deliver 4 (or more) hits to slay him within a combat encounter. Assuming he survived the encounter, three or fewer hits would amount to only insignificant cuts and grazes.

[naiyor]

May 7, 2023 16:37:32 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

May 7, 2023 10:56:51 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I agree with his possibility. I have thought of this too...never tried it out and will it mean that as long as you don't fight more than 3 men? you are invincible? I have a beautiful image of swathes of goblins being hacked apart 3 at a time lol

The way I translate it for D&D-land is: heroes automatically recover up to three normal hits in the post combat rest (the portion of a 10-minute exploration turn remaining post-combat as the game shifts from combat-time back to exploration-time). Extending this to fighters (only) of all levels is something like: fighters recover up to one normal hit for each experience level in the post combat rest.

The net result is that fighters can continue to fight another day without the needing clerics or loads of potions. Moreover, clerical healing is then reserved for non-trivial cuts and grazes (i.e., fantastic rather than normal hits). A hero isn't invincible against three normal types, but they would have to collectively deliver 4 (or more) hits to slay him within a combat encounter. Assuming he survived the encounter, three or fewer hits would amount to only insignificant cuts and grazes.

this make a ton on sense. Thanks man.

[tombowings]

May 7, 2023 16:37:32 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

May 7, 2023 10:56:51 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I agree with his possibility. I have thought of this too...never tried it out and will it mean that as long as you don't fight more than 3 men? you are invincible? I have a beautiful image of swathes of goblins being hacked apart 3 at a time lol

The way I translate it for D&D-land is: heroes automatically recover up to three normal hits in the post combat rest (the portion of a 10-minute exploration turn remaining post-combat as the game shifts from combat-time back to exploration-time). Extending this to fighters (only) of all levels is something like: fighters recover up to one normal hit for each experience level in the post combat rest.

The net result is that fighters can continue to fight another day without the needing clerics or loads of potions. Moreover, clerical healing is then reserved for non-trivial cuts and grazes (i.e., fantastic rather than normal hits). A hero isn't invincible against three normal types, but they would have to collectively deliver 4 (or more) hits to slay him within a combat encounter. Assuming he survived the encounter, three or fewer hits would amount to only insignificant cuts and grazes.

That sounds much easier to pull off (organizationally) if one isn't using hit points, but instead counts each hit die as one "hit".

[waysoftheearth]

Yes, I had blithely overlooked variable damage (doh! ) but, assuming the GH approach, then 1-8 becomes the standard HD and 1-8 damage the normal hit. Other normal hits (1-4, 1-6, 1-10, etc. damage) could be translated into portions of normal hits if one was really keen, or just counted as one standard hit regardless, as tombowings suggests.

It's certainly easier assuming all normal hits are equivalent (whether 1-6 or 1-8 hp).

[cadriel]

May 7, 2023 16:37:32 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

May 7, 2023 10:56:51 GMT -6 naiyor said:

I agree with his possibility. I have thought of this too...never tried it out and will it mean that as long as you don't fight more than 3 men? you are invincible? I have a beautiful image of swathes of goblins being hacked apart 3 at a time lol

The way I translate it for D&D-land is: heroes automatically recover up to three normal hits in the post combat rest (the portion of a 10-minute exploration turn remaining post-combat as the game shifts from combat-time back to exploration-time). Extending this to fighters (only) of all levels is something like: fighters recover up to one normal hit for each experience level in the post combat rest.

The net result is that fighters can continue to fight another day without the needing clerics or loads of potions. Moreover, clerical healing is then reserved for non-trivial cuts and grazes (i.e., fantastic rather than normal hits). A hero isn't invincible against three normal types, but they would have to collectively deliver 4 (or more) hits to slay him within a combat encounter. Assuming he survived the encounter, three or fewer hits would amount to only insignificant cuts and grazes.

This has me thinking there are two ways to do this.

One is to use a more abstract "hit" system which this seems to imply. That seems to have been one of the things jettisoned early in D&D's history, when Arneson moved on from Chainmail, in favor of a more fixed hp system.

The other is to use hit points but allow recovery between fights - unless a character has a wound from a major enemy. I'd be tempted to do something like allowing a character up to their hit dice in hit points restored per day. So a second level fighter could rest up to two turns, recovering 1d6 hit points per turn, in a game day. It still keeps attrition in the game but it makes longer dungeon delves possible without turning the game into a healing potion fest.

[cadriel]

(Also I'm thinking that this would use the LBBs only, so no Greyhawk classes or variable weapon damage. I want a world where sorcerers are dangerous enemies, not a glass cannon that the fighters have to protect.)

[waysoftheearth]

May 8, 2023 8:07:34 GMT -6 cadriel said:

This has me thinking there are two ways to do this.

One is to use a more abstract "hit" system which this seems to imply.

FWIW, I use 1-6 hp damage per hit, but then just scratch the last few hits worth of hp damage at the conclusion of the encounter.

[machfront]

If we’re assuming (which it seems most of us are) 3LBBs-only or a clone of such, I feel it’s worth also thinking of how a “+1” weapon (for example) is a fairly big deal. Normally, this may be magic. Simple as that.
Now, your fighter-only campaign may be in a world of magic, but if not…or a low-magic world, I think the “+1” may still apply at least to ‘ancient’, ‘mysterious’ ‘made-from-this-special-something’ or even just ‘made-by-the-greatest-smith-in-the-land’ weapons. Heh.

So I think a Thieves’ World game as much as a Robin Hood game can have, at least, ‘+1’ weapons and a decent campaign-specific reason and maintain its verisimilitude.

[thorswulf]

Well, I have never tried this myself, but I think it lends itself extremely well to historical fantasy campaigns. You could stick to the medieval setting, or do bronze age stuff very easily. Seeking out wizards and mystics, or legendary healers or anchorites could be a good quest and still incorporate that fantasy element that is needed. I once played a game where I was a samurai who couldn't speak common, but was best friends with the barbarian in the group. Think Toshiro Mifune grunting and scowling to Conan the barbarian! We had way to much fun with that.

[tkdco2]

If I were to run a game with only fighting-men, I'd make it a military campaign. One of my plans for MERP that never came to fruition was to have a squad of soldiers who survived the final defeat of Cardolan. The plan was to have them retreat to Tharbad to heal and regroup. Then they could find employment in the city and perhaps work as mercenaries.

[Starbeard]

If one is basing a system around Chainmail Heroes & Superheroes, then couldn't you just erase all damage after an encounter?

A CM hero requires 4 hits in a combat to kill, otherwise the damage is ignored: a D&D hero has 4HD, rolled up as hit points, and if he isn't killed in an encounter the damage is ignored.

The only conundrum is fantastical combat, which doesn't actually translate to D&D's hit dice anyway. So maybe fantastical combats (and traps?) are permanent damage, and otherwise any hits taken that don't kill you are ignored after the post-melee rest.

[chicagowiz]

May 24, 2023 20:19:56 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

If one is basing a system around Chainmail Heroes & Superheroes, then couldn't you just erase all damage after an encounter?

A CM hero requires 4 hits in a combat to kill, otherwise the damage is ignored: a D&D hero has 4HD, rolled up as hit points, and if he isn't killed in an encounter the damage is ignored.

The only conundrum is fantastical combat, which doesn't actually translate to D&D's hit dice anyway. So maybe fantastical combats (and traps?) are permanent damage, and otherwise any hits taken that don't kill you are ignored after the post-melee rest.

With Fantasy Combat, I just learned about a little addendum to it from SR#2's FAQ:
When fantastic combat is taking place there is normally only one exchange of attacks per round, and unless the rules state otherwise,
a six-sided die is used to determine how many hit points damage is sustained when an attack succeeds. Weapon type is not considered,
save where magical weapons are concerned. A super hero, for example, would attack eight times only if he were fighting normal men (or
creatures basically that strength, i.e., kobolds, goblins, gnomes, dwarves, and so on).

I'm thinking that if I were doing something like this, any damage that doesn't equal a full HD can be ignored, but the rest must be healed. So my 8th level FM Trell rolls up 28hp on 8D6. He suffers 5 hits in fantasy combat totalling 22hp. 22 / 6 = 3 remainder of 4. So he'd ignore the 4hp, and end the combat at 10hp, needing to heal 18hp.

[waysoftheearth]

A CM hero only ignores hits in normal combat. He doesn't ignore any hits in fantastic combat.

So over in D&D land, a hero ignores normal hits only. Not fantastic hits.

E.g., suppose a hero tangles with (normal) orcs and a (fantastic) troll in the same encounter. If the troll hits our hero for 3 hp of damage, and orcs hit our hero twice for 6 hp of damage in the same encounter, then... (assuming the hero's side wins out, he survives, and he gets to rest up after the encounter)... he recovers/ignores the 6 hp damage from the two (normal) orc hits, but the 3 hp damage from the (fantastic) troll hit will stick. Unless/until he gets a clerical or magical cure, or rest between adventures.

If, in another encounter, the hero battled exclusively fantastic ogres, then he wouldn't ignore/recover any of their (fantastic) hits if he survived to rest after the encounter.

[Starbeard]

May 25, 2023 7:28:28 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

A CM hero only ignores hits in normal combat. He doesn't ignore any hits in fantastic combat.

So over in D&D land, a hero ignores normal hits only. Not fantastic hits.

E.g., suppose a hero tangles with (normal) orcs and a (fantastic) troll in the same encounter. If the troll hits our hero for 3 hp of damage, and orcs hit our hero twice for 6 hp of damage in the same encounter, then... (assuming the hero's side wins out, he survives, and he gets to rest up after the encounter)... he recovers/ignores the 6 hp damage from the two (normal) orc hits, but the 3 hp damage from the (fantastic) troll hit will stick. Unless/until he gets a clerical or magical cure, or rest between adventures.

If, in another encounter, the hero battled exclusively fantastic ogres, then he wouldn't ignore/recover any of their (fantastic) hits if he survived to rest after the encounter.

I would like to experiment with this, it seems fun and very "Chainmail." Fantastical combat is permanent, the rest resets after the encounter.

That leaves tricks & traps, and foolish mishaps like falling down stairs. I'm inclined to interpret those as permanent as well. I suppose they could also be divided between "fantastical" and "normal," where one is permanent and the other remains only until your next post-combat rest.

[Starbeard]

May 25, 2023 7:13:22 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

May 24, 2023 20:19:56 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

If one is basing a system around Chainmail Heroes & Superheroes, then couldn't you just erase all damage after an encounter?

A CM hero requires 4 hits in a combat to kill, otherwise the damage is ignored: a D&D hero has 4HD, rolled up as hit points, and if he isn't killed in an encounter the damage is ignored.

The only conundrum is fantastical combat, which doesn't actually translate to D&D's hit dice anyway. So maybe fantastical combats (and traps?) are permanent damage, and otherwise any hits taken that don't kill you are ignored after the post-melee rest.

With Fantasy Combat, I just learned about a little addendum to it from SR#2's FAQ:
When fantastic combat is taking place there is normally only one exchange of attacks per round, and unless the rules state otherwise,
a six-sided die is used to determine how many hit points damage is sustained when an attack succeeds. Weapon type is not considered,
save where magical weapons are concerned. A super hero, for example, would attack eight times only if he were fighting normal men (or
creatures basically that strength, i.e., kobolds, goblins, gnomes, dwarves, and so on).

I'm thinking that if I were doing something like this, any damage that doesn't equal a full HD can be ignored, but the rest must be healed. So my 8th level FM Trell rolls up 28hp on 8D6. He suffers 5 hits in fantasy combat totalling 22hp. 22 / 6 = 3 remainder of 4. So he'd ignore the 4hp, and end the combat at 10hp, needing to heal 18hp.

Nice catch! I had never noticed that before. It makes sense, if everything in Chainmail is translated from a kill to a die of damage, then the fantastical combat table would too.

[chicagowiz]

May 25, 2023 7:28:28 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

A CM hero only ignores hits in normal combat. He doesn't ignore any hits in fantastic combat.

So over in D&D land, a hero ignores normal hits only. Not fantastic hits.

E.g., suppose a hero tangles with (normal) orcs and a (fantastic) troll in the same encounter. If the troll hits our hero for 3 hp of damage, and orcs hit our hero twice for 6 hp of damage in the same encounter, then... (assuming the hero's side wins out, he survives, and he gets to rest up after the encounter)... he recovers/ignores the 6 hp damage from the two (normal) orc hits, but the 3 hp damage from the (fantastic) troll hit will stick. Unless/until he gets a clerical or magical cure, or rest between adventures.

If, in another encounter, the hero battled exclusively fantastic ogres, then he wouldn't ignore/recover any of their (fantastic) hits if he survived to rest after the encounter.

This is something I probably have missed somewhere, but is there an explicit rule that says fantastic hits can't be ignored? Or is it just by inference because FC was originally built as a kind of one-shot "miss-recoil-kill" throw?

I've typically ignored FC throws, just using straight up Fighting Capability/HD = number of hits and going against the mass-combat tables, but this is an interesting path to follow.

[waysoftheearth]

May 25, 2023 11:37:51 GMT -6 chicagowiz said:

is there an explicit rule that says fantastic hits can't be ignored?

In CM-land, I think yes. CM2 p27 has this (for heroes):

When meleed by regular troops, and combat takes place on the non-Fantasy Combat Tables, four simultaneous kills must be scored against Heroes (or Anti-Heroes) to eliminate them. Otherwise, there is no effect upon them.

How we bring this over to D&D-land is ultimately up to each individual ref, but I feel like the normal/fantastic distinction is an important part of the original flavor.

For me, this distinction helps to reflect how the heroes of classic fantasy literature can fight a bunch of mooks here, and there, and everywhere with seemingly endless energy. That only normal hits are ignored helps to make fantastic monsters more serious opponents---even if they deal only 1-6 hp damage on a hit it's 1-6 permanent damage. And this in turn helps to reserve clerical healing for these more serious (fantastic), story-changing injuries, rather than each fighter needing an entourage of clerics or a pack full of cure potions just to perform his most basic role: whacking mooks.

[chicagowiz]

May 25, 2023 18:33:04 GMT -6 waysoftheearth said:

For me, this distinction helps to reflect how the heroes of classic fantasy literature can fight a bunch of mooks here, and there, and everywhere with seemingly endless energy. That only normal hits are ignored helps to make fantastic monsters more serious opponents---even if they deal only 1-6 hp damage on a hit it's 1-6 permanent damage. And this in turn helps to reserve clerical healing for these more serious (fantastic), story-changing injuries, rather than each fighter needing an entourage of clerics or a pack full of cure potions just to perform his most basic role: whacking mooks.

That's fair, something to consider, thanks for explaining why you see it that way!

[doublejig2]

Interesting take. A change in the necessary combat language follows from the change in wound healing.