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Post by talysman on Dec 23, 2022 20:59:35 GMT -6
Since Holmes' 1 to 3 HP matches the levels covered by Basic, one idea I've had is to have the amount regained correspond to level. 1 HP per day at 1st, 2 HP per day at 2nd, etc, and then extend that progression to higher levels. Possibly modified by the Constitution bonus/penalty per day. It's not a bad idea. One additional rule to please those who want very fast healing would be: At the end of the first week, roll 1d6 and add the Con hit point adjustment (+1 for Con 15+, -1 for Con 6 or less.) On 5+, the PC recovers all lost hit points. Otherwise, the PC continues to recover at the slower rate, but can roll again after another week of rest.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 24, 2022 0:06:16 GMT -6
One more thing. It's really weird that Moldvay's Basic has a rule about natural healing and BECMI/RC does not. Absolutely. I was baffled when I realized that. But then I thought it may be an indicator that natural healing of HP was not happening, as every party had their healing potions and/or clerics and/or other healing items readily available, so natural healing was not a thing in the games of old? Not sure about that assumption, but it's the only way I can wrap my head around the idea that natural healing would be forgotten.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 24, 2022 0:17:44 GMT -6
Since Holmes' 1 to 3 HP matches the levels covered by Basic, one idea I've had is to have the amount regained correspond to level. 1 HP per day at 1st, 2 HP per day at 2nd, etc, and then extend that progression to higher levels. Possibly modified by the Constitution bonus/penalty per day. Interesting idea. That'd really speed up healing, but too much? Consider a 10th-level FM with high CON and maximum HP, they have 90 HP. They'd heal 11 HP per day, so they're almost entirely healed for the full amount after 8 days. A 10th-level MU with normal CON and maximum HP would have 40 HP and be fully healed within 4 days. Now, using a realistic amount of HP and assuming the presence of a cleric would mean a party would fully heal after around 4 days or so? Sounds like more heroic play. Maybe the CON score could be used as a cap here. You can quick-heal as many HP as you have CON, but the rest would have to be healed slowly. That way, you'd make sure characters can catch a quick breath but not be ready for the next dragon-slaying campaign in a breeze.
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Post by retrorob on Dec 24, 2022 4:40:54 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm reading Advanced Melee (The Fantasy Trip) now. Here is how recovering from injury was worded:
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 24, 2022 5:20:50 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm reading Advanced Melee (The Fantasy Trip) now. Here is how recovering from injury was worded: For those of us who haven't played TFT in decades, remind us how hit points work for that game. Are the hit point numbers at all similar to D&D? Now I wonder how RuneQuest and T&T do it.
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Post by retrorob on Dec 24, 2022 6:29:55 GMT -6
Both TFT and T&T don't actually have "hit points", at least not as a separate characteristic; hits (wounds) diminish Strength and Constitution respectively. To be honest though, I don't see any difference. Playing both D&D and TFT, my players just mark off 'chops'. hamuraiI guess the rule was just forgotten/omitted, but might be found in the modules, e.g. Night's Dark Terror (p. 3) has a passage 'Recovering Lost Hit Points':
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Post by howandwhy99 on Dec 24, 2022 6:39:22 GMT -6
I like the 1 hp/ full day recovery rate. But for many modern players I have opted to one per level.
Not to throw a wrench in the earlier discussion, but I believe the 1 day delay of the initial healing from full rest is because the recovery happened at the start of the day. So every day actually recovers HP. It's simply you need to wait till the second day to get any benefit. The beginning of the day.
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 24, 2022 7:29:42 GMT -6
Since Holmes' 1 to 3 HP matches the levels covered by Basic, one idea I've had is to have the amount regained correspond to level. 1 HP per day at 1st, 2 HP per day at 2nd, etc, and then extend that progression to higher levels. Possibly modified by the Constitution bonus/penalty per day. Interesting idea. That'd really speed up healing, but too much? Consider a 10th-level FM with high CON and maximum HP, they have 90 HP. They'd heal 11 HP per day, so they're almost entirely healed for the full amount after 8 days. A 10th-level MU with normal CON and maximum HP would have 40 HP and be fully healed within 4 days. Now, using a realistic amount of HP and assuming the presence of a cleric would mean a party would fully heal after around 4 days or so? Sounds like more heroic play. Maybe the CON score could be used as a cap here. You can quick-heal as many HP as you have CON, but the rest would have to be healed slowly. That way, you'd make sure characters can catch a quick breath but not be ready for the next dragon-slaying campaign in a breeze. Without having thought much about the mathematics of it, presumably healing times would remain static throughout most of the character's career, wouldn't they? Assuming Greyhawk HD, anyway. The MU is guaranteed to be fully healed up in 4 days no matter what level, the fighter in 8. In effect it's the same as saying that a character heals X% of hits per Y period of rest.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 24, 2022 9:06:14 GMT -6
For those of us who haven't played TFT in decades, remind us how hit points work for that game. Are the hit point numbers at all similar to D&D? Now I wonder how RuneQuest and T&T do it. In RQ2 "a character will recover from wounds at the rate of 1 point per game week in each location wounded". Of course, if one of those wounds was a severed limb you'd get your total hit points back eventually, but the limb would still be missing...
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Post by talysman on Dec 24, 2022 10:11:57 GMT -6
FWIW, I'm reading Advanced Melee (The Fantasy Trip) now. Here is how recovering from injury was worded: For those of us who haven't played TFT in decades, remind us how hit points work for that game. Are the hit point numbers at all similar to D&D? Now I wonder how RuneQuest and T&T do it. Damage in TFT is marked against Strength (ST). A starting character in TFT will usually have more "hit points" than a starting D&D character, even when using Greyhawk hit dice rules. But two other factors make TFT hit points even more distinct: - Fatigue is also marked against ST. Fatigue can build up quickly, and it's added to damage when compared to ST, so a TFT player could die even if they take only a tiny amount of damage but has exerted themselves a lot or cast a lot of spells.
- Advancement is different. You earn XP, but there are no levels, unless you consider the total of ST, DX, and IQ to be the character's level. At certain XP breakpoints, you gain a new point to spend on ST, DX, or IQ. So, hit points do increase with experience, but will seem to increase slowly compared to D&D.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 24, 2022 11:01:31 GMT -6
Another option is 1 hp per hit die. That way LBB fighting-men are able to recover just as fast as magic-users.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 24, 2022 12:54:01 GMT -6
Without having thought much about the mathematics of it, presumably healing times would remain static throughout most of the character's career, wouldn't they? Assuming Greyhawk HD, anyway. The MU is guaranteed to be fully healed up in 4 days no matter what level, the fighter in 8. In effect it's the same as saying that a character heals X% of hits per Y period of rest. Indeed. A 1st-level FM with 7 HP lost would take just as long to recover as a 10th-level FM with 70 HP lost. I wonder, though, if that's good or bad. Can't decide yet. Plus, I think I'd rather have all classes heal equally fast, so a MU with only half as many HP as their FM companion will take the same time recovering from losing only half of the HP. Maybe a static recovery of the average number (rounded up) gained by each Hit Die would even it out. So, MU recovers 3 HP, FM recovers 5 HP, etc.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 25, 2022 6:16:49 GMT -6
Another option is 1 hp per hit die. That way LBB fighting-men are able to recover just as fast as magic-users. I particularly like this option with the Men & Magic hit dice system (compared to Greyhawk's one HD per level).
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Post by Piper on Dec 25, 2022 16:02:31 GMT -6
Another option is 1 hp per hit die. That way LBB fighting-men are able to recover just as fast as magic-users. This is a fine idea.
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Post by rustic313 on Dec 25, 2022 17:13:33 GMT -6
Another option is 1 hp per hit die. That way LBB fighting-men are able to recover just as fast as magic-users. This is a fine idea. I pretty much do this. Respite (30 mins/one exploration turn): Heal up to 1 HP plus CON modifier per HD, if you're below it. Short rest (8 hrs/one hour): Heal up to 2 HP plus CON mod per HD, if you're below it. Long rest (one week / overnight): Heal 1 HP per HD until topped off. I use the longer times for gritty swords and sorcery, quick times for high fantasy and movie style heroics.
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Post by angantyr on Jan 1, 2023 1:25:24 GMT -6
For those of us who haven't played TFT in decades, remind us how hit points work for that game. Are the hit point numbers at all similar to D&D? Now I wonder how RuneQuest and T&T do it. Damage in TFT is marked against Strength (ST). A starting character in TFT will usually have more "hit points" than a starting D&D character, even when using Greyhawk hit dice rules. But two other factors make TFT hit points even more distinct: - Fatigue is also marked against ST. Fatigue can build up quickly, and it's added to damage when compared to ST, so a TFT player could die even if they take only a tiny amount of damage but has exerted themselves a lot or cast a lot of spells.
- Advancement is different. You earn XP, but there are no levels, unless you consider the total of ST, DX, and IQ to be the character's level. At certain XP breakpoints, you gain a new point to spend on ST, DX, or IQ. So, hit points do increase with experience, but will seem to increase slowly compared to D&D.
It's worth pointing out that weapon damage is rather different in TFT, with potential range for a two handed battle axe being 3d6, and an average TFT figure will only have around 10 ST - and as pointed out, one advances rather slowly in TFT so even an experienced figure with, say, 40-45 attribute point total will probably only have a ST of perhaps 14-16 or so (though it could be higher depending on how much is allocated towards ST) and thus still be vulnerable to a single weapon hit, which is not a problem for D&D figures. And note that I have NOT included the possibility of double or triple damage on a roll of 4 or 3 rolling 3d6 to hit... Of course, in TFT armor and shields deduct damage, so the fights are more survivable than the bleak picture I painted above, but it is nevertheless a truism that one's life expectancy in TFT can be rather lower than D&D, assuming comparable challenges/battles, and even a very experienced figure can be laid low by a single blow, or easily overwhelmed by two or three "lower level" mook-type opponents, which either can't happen in D&D or would involve freakishly bad luck in order to occur.
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Post by ahabicher on Jan 8, 2023 10:06:32 GMT -6
Yes, the original rule is every other day; which many gamers have often forgotten or misread thanks to the later 1/day standard (myself included, I went years thinking it was 1/day). In my latter-day gameplay scheme of marking off weeks instead of days, I have used 3hp per week of rest as a base, to follow off that original rule. Okay, I misquoted myself earlier. The PHB rule is this: 1/day for a month, then 5/day thereafter. So the design there is that healing anything more than 30hp is too much and needs to be sped up. So now I'm wondering where in the world I've read the "1/day for x weeks, then everything is healed" rule. OD&D: "On the first day of complete rest no hit points will be regained, but every other day thereafter one hit point will be regained until the character is completely healed. This can take a long time." Holmes Basic: "Hit points can be restored, if the character is alive, by a clerical healing spell, a healing potion or some other magical item. Otherwise he must continue on in his wounded state until the game is over and he returns to the surface. Each day of rest and recuperation back "home" will regenerate 1 to 3 of his hit points for the next adventure." B/X: "To cure wounds by resting, the wounded creature must relax in a safe place, and may do nothing but rest. Each full day of complete rest will restore 1-3 hit points (roll Id6; 1 or 2 indicates 1; 3 or 4 indicates 2; 5 or 6 indicates 3)." AD&D1: "The most mundane is by resting and allowing time to do the iob. For each day of rest, 1 hit point of damage is restored. After 30 game days have passed, hit points accrue at the rate of 5 per day thereafter." BECMI: No mention I can find. AD&D2: "Characters heal naturally at a rate of 1 hit point per day of rest. Rest is defined as low activity-nothing more strenuous than riding a horse or traveling from one place to another. Fighting, running in fear, lifting a heavy boulder, or any other physical activity, prevents resting, since it strains old wounds and may even reopen them. If a character has complete bed rest (doing nothing for an entire day), he can regain 3 hit points for the day. For each complete week of bed rest, the character can add any Constitution hit point bonus he might have to the base of 21 points (3 points per day) he regained during that week." So, yes, I'm curious too. I remember reading this as well: slow healing for a number of weeks, then everything is considered healed. But where can that be from? Ah, there, DMG 1e. Thanks for adding it, Mordorandor
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Post by ahabicher on Jan 8, 2023 10:20:19 GMT -6
One more thing. It's really weird that Moldvay's Basic has a rule about natural healing and BECMI/RC does not. Indeed, I can hardly believe it.
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Post by ahabicher on Jan 8, 2023 10:36:29 GMT -6
Regarding "no rules for natural healing in BECMI", I checked the Rules Cyclopedia.
Rules Cyclopedia, p 83 (Where the index locates "Healing") "Healing: This is the ability to treat wounds and diagnose illnesses among humans and demihumans. A successful skill roll allows a character to restore 1d3 hit points to a wounded character. (A related skill, Veterinary Healing, allows similar treatment of animals and monsters.)"
This makes it appear as if it was covered by a skill ... if not for ... "This skill cannot be used on a wounded character more than once for the same set of wounds" ... which kind of defeats it.
Even more interesting is Rules Cyclopedia p 150: "While starving, the character cannot heal naturally," suggesting that if not starving he can. But I failed to find the rule.
----
Checking the Facebook Group for BECMI, the question was asked, and the answer judged most relevant by the Facebook algorithm is
"There are no rules [for natural healing] in BECMI. One of the B-series modules printed a test and healing rules that was 1 hit point per day of rest. That is basically like the one that was printed in the OD&D rules. AD&D used 1 hit point per day to a point then more after a week and fully healed after a month. The Classic D&D Game, which was an RC-based Basic set, printed a healing rule of 1d4 hit points per day. For just the earlier core boxed sets there is no rule but any of these related games’ rules are perfectly suitable for use."
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Post by Starbeard on Jan 31, 2023 14:25:16 GMT -6
Out of curiosity I abused my position as a university lecturer and polled my students using PollEverywhere on how they interpret the passage.
With the first class, I showed them the passage about healing and asked for their initial impression, without trying to parse the text. Out of 110 students, 33% understood it to mean everyday, 51% answered every other day, and 16% said "something else."
However, I also noticed that a bunch of students kept deleting their response and picking another one after thinking about it more closely. So for the next class I really stressed that all I care about are their initial, intuitive, gut level reading. Then I showed them the text, and the response was almost exactly the opposite: out of 110 students, 53% said every day, 37% said every other day, and 10% said "other."
This more or less lines up with my expectations. If you read the passage "naturally" (i.e., without thinking about what you're reading or expecting to parse text), it will probably read naturally one way, while reading it with an intent to determine its meaning will likely cause a different reading, or at least the recognition of ambiguity.
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Post by Mordorandor on Jan 31, 2023 15:06:24 GMT -6
…. However, I also noticed that a bunch of students kept deleting their response and picking another one after thinking about it more closely. …. Very cool. Out of curiosity, how many were in the “bunch?” On par with the delta between 31% in the first class and 53% in the second class?
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Post by Starbeard on Jan 31, 2023 18:38:40 GMT -6
…. However, I also noticed that a bunch of students kept deleting their response and picking another one after thinking about it more closely. …. Very cool. Out of curiosity, how many were in the “bunch?” On par with the delta between 31% in the first class and 53% in the second class? I don't know if I can check that in PollEverywhere, but recalling it happening at the time, I'd say about 20 students, the same amount that would have changed it to the other class' numbers. It would float up and down around 50%, then down to 30, then back up and down until I told them all to stop changing their answers. One thing to consider is that everyone polled was already aware that a discrepancy in interpretation was possible, otherwise there would be no poll. I think I could have gotten more honest answers if I had framed it another way: give them the rule without comment, as if it were the first part of a logic question, and then instead of asking them to solve a number, ask them what their first impression was about how the rule works.
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Post by retrorob on Feb 3, 2023 10:27:05 GMT -6
It seems it all depends on the context. I'm reading Chainmail:
and Holmes:
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