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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 20, 2022 7:22:32 GMT -6
I think the Mamas & the Papas can shed some light on it. I assume you mean the song "Monday, Monday" and I nearly quoted it before. Every other day, every other day Every other day, every other day of the week is fine, yeah But whenever Monday comes, but whenever Monday comes But whenever Monday comes, you can find me cryin' all of the timeSince you mentioned it.
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Post by derv on Dec 20, 2022 7:56:08 GMT -6
If an individual understands “every other” to mean every day beyond the first it might be worthwhile considering that a better way to express that would be to say “all other” instead.
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 20, 2022 9:08:33 GMT -6
"Each other day" is another option. There are definitely ways to say either meaning with more clarity. So whatever the intent, I chalk it up to Gygax not having an editor there to point these things out to him.
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Post by Malchor on Dec 21, 2022 7:08:16 GMT -6
Then again, a person could argue that it was a poor choice of words or an editing error. By simply replacing the one word of "other" with "additional" you would conclude regaining 1 hp/day after the first day of rest. Another possibility is removing the word "other" entirely. The same conclusions would be drawn. Either way, this seems to have become the normal practice in most cases. There is there too. Agreed 100%. This may be heresy, but the jump from Gary's early to mid-1970s writing style for Chainmail, OD&D and rules explanations in The Strategic Review to his writing style in mid-late 1970s for AD&D is just astounding. Holmes, and even Barker with ETP, show how little is needed to clean up the OD&D text with some edits or a fresh rewrite, AD&D takes pains to over-correct and not always successfully, then there is the change in writing style and word use, it is a huge change.
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Post by aldarron on Dec 21, 2022 15:51:01 GMT -6
Ugh, stop already guys.
Its 1 hp every day. There's no skip days or what have you. You'ns are way overthinking mid-western colloquial English and what to me, and Fin seems quite natural. No one back in the day ever talked about skipping days. Besides, if that had been the intent, it would have been more clearly explained as such, being the more complicated interpretation.
Here's the relevant portion of the handwriten Blackmore notes from Greg Svenson's 1972 Chainmail booklet:
"Life and death: Mortal 7 pt. damage to kill Hero 14 pt. " " " Super Hero 28 pt. " " " Wizard 21 pt. " " " recover 1 pt./day"
And here is the quote from Beyond this Point be Dragons - Mark Buffkins 1973/74 edit of the D&D draft:
"RECOVERY: At the end of combat, all loss of hits must be made up for the victim to be completely “recovered”. Hits are usually recovered at a rate of 1 to 2 per day for lower level creatures, and more for those with more hits to lose. The amount is up to the Referee, but it should not be easy to recover from near-death blows."
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Post by derv on Dec 21, 2022 15:58:08 GMT -6
Hmm, mid-western colloquialism
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 21, 2022 16:42:43 GMT -6
Ugh, stop already guys. Its 1 hp every day. There's no skip days or what have you. You'ns are way overthinking mid-western colloquial English and what to me, and Fin seems quite natural. .... This is good point if we we're interested in the historical archeology of the game. Yet the text says, in it's most commonly taken usage, that a character alleviates/regains 1 hp on the 3rd day, 1 hp on the 5th day, and 1 hp on the 7th day. Because communication is not solely bound up in what the sender intends. Kind of like telling everyone to use Chainmail to resolve battles when what was used exclusively (most likely) was the Alternate Combat System, and then being confused/surprised as to why so many people have questions about how to use the guidelines with Chainmail.
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Post by aldarron on Dec 21, 2022 18:14:13 GMT -6
Yet the text says, in it's most commonly taken usage, that a character alleviates/regains 1 hp on the 3rd day, 1 hp on the 5th day, and 1 hp on the 7th day. Is it? the most commonly taken usage, I mean. I'm not so sure that is true. Common usage in expression, as I'm sure you will agree, is often not idealized. I suspect, to borrow Fin's every/other example, that a phrase like "I have a box of 8 crayons where one is red and every other crayon is a different color." is the more common usage, or at least was decades ago. To be honest "On the first day..., but every other day thereafter" doesn't even seem ambiguous to me. To my ears that is a very clear contrast, between day one and all the rest. It doesn't to me, at all mean "once every two days" which is exactly the phrase I would expect if one day on and one day off were meant, or possibly, the phrase "every other one", with the one being the necessary distinguisher needed to convey the idea that not every single day is meant. Why not say all others? If in casual conversation I used a contrasting phrase like the one in book I would naturally say every other over all others because the latter sounds a bit ostentatious to the parole habitus of my youth. I might, for example say, "When I go to my grandma's on Sundays I eat like a king, but every other day I eat like a peasant." I wouldn't say "all other days" - that'd be weird. Anyway, it is an interesting discussion and it is always fun to look at new interpretations of rules.
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Post by derv on Dec 21, 2022 20:16:35 GMT -6
I might, for example say, "When I go to my grandma's on Sundays I eat like a king, but every other day I eat like a peasant." I wouldn't say "all other days" - that'd be weird. That would be weird. Yet I don't think your use of "every other" in your example would be a common expression, mid-western or not. My wife is from the mid-west, her family is all from the mid-west, and I consider myself pretty well acquainted with them. I can unequivocally say I have never heard them use the expression, "Grandma didn't give me a pop for lunch today, but every other day she'll give me a bottle of pop." Instead, you might say, "but she'll give me pop on the following days", or "the rest of the days", or " all the rest of the days", or even " all the rest of the week". Keep in mind, pop is a mid-western colloquialism for soda Now, if I were to say, "I go for a run every other day", what does that mean to you? Would it change in meaning if I said, "I didn't run yesterday, but I go for a run every other day"?
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Post by talysman on Dec 21, 2022 20:33:05 GMT -6
Ugh, stop already guys. Its 1 hp every day. There's no skip days or what have you. You'ns are way overthinking mid-western colloquial English and what to me, and Fin seems quite natural. No one back in the day ever talked about skipping days. Besides, if that had been the intent, it would have been more clearly explained as such, being the more complicated interpretation. Well, I grew up in the midwest in the early '70s, and "every other day" meaning the same as "every second day" was pretty common. Google's NGram viewer gives a lot of examples of it meaning exactly that, for about a hundred years. And in medical prescriptions, it always means exactly that. You can find exceptions, but I'd say those are in different contexts: a sequence of days, or a collection of days? In medicine, or milk delivery routes (an example I found from 1956,) or class schedules, you're talking about a sequence of days. Milk is delivered on which days? You take this pill on which days? In the song "Monday Monday", you're talking about kinds of days. Mondays feel different from other days to the singer. It's the day he cries. So is Gygax writing about a sequence of days, or kinds of days? I don't think Gygax was expecting any confusion about what was a common phrase, but I'm betting he got the same response as we're seeing here, which would explain why later versions changed the rate entirely: no skipping the first day or every other day, just a straight daily rate of recovery.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 22, 2022 2:59:00 GMT -6
Here's the relevant portion of the handwriten Blackmore notes from Greg Svenson's 1972 Chainmail booklet: "Life and death: Mortal 7 pt. damage to kill Hero 14 pt. " " " Super Hero 28 pt. " " " Wizard 21 pt. " " " recover 1 pt./day" And here is the quote from Beyond this Point be Dragons - Mark Buffkins 1973/74 edit of the D&D draft: "RECOVERY: At the end of combat, all loss of hits must be made up for the victim to be completely “recovered”. Hits are usually recovered at a rate of 1 to 2 per day for lower level creatures, and more for those with more hits to lose. The amount is up to the Referee, but it should not be easy to recover from near-death blows." Personally, I'd say that's hardly proof because HP are handled differently in D&D than described in these Blackmore notes; and they're clearly not recovered the way described in BtPbD. For me, it's clear because of the stress on "On the first day of complete rest no hit points will be regained", followed by a "but", therefore "every other day" means "each following day" in contrast to them not being the first. I know, that's just my personal understanding and probably influenced by the fact that I'm not a native speaker of English. Since I've always found 1 HP/day to be too slow a healing rate, it never even crossed my mind it could mean something else, which would indicate an even slower rate of healing. In the end, I believe it's just one more example of ambiguous, "crappy" writing which serves to confuse as much as it does to clarify. It's always been my main (and only real) complaint with OD&D, as I believe that a writer of a game should either state a rule in a clear and unmistakable way, or leave it out entirely, so the players can make their own.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 22, 2022 6:04:49 GMT -6
Now, if I were to say, "I go for a run every other day", what does that mean to you? Would it change in meaning if I said, "I didn't run yesterday, but I go for a run every other day"? This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. This is good point if we we're interested in the historical archeology of the game. Yet the text says, in it's most commonly taken usage, that a character alleviates/regains 1 hp on the 3rd day, 1 hp on the 5th day, and 1 hp on the 7th day. Because communication is not solely bound up in what the sender intends. This is one of the most strange statements I've ever seen on these boards. The entire purpose of these boards is to discuss OD&D, its rules and its history. What the authors intended, and how the authors actually played, seems like one of our primary purposes. It seems really strange to say, "Well, this is what they did but the other is the way I read it so my interpretation trumps the intent." Part of my frustration with 5E is that players look at every passage carefully, reflecting in each comma and specific wording in order to look for loopholes. The common argument is that the writers were very careful with every rule and if they intended a comma (or whatever) they would have put it there. Leads to some strange discussions. I don't think that Dave and Gary were doing that stuff at all. They thought that the best way to learn D&D was to experience it and learn from the experience, and putting the rules on paper were a consequence of wanting to allow others to play without getting that experience. They knew how they played. They just weren't always precise in the linguistics of how to convey this. Wargamers and miniatures gamers of the era spoke much the same language at the time, so a lot of what newcomers get confused by wasn't confusing to those back in the day. I think that a big error made today is that folks take a rule from a later edition (whether it be 2E or 5E) and bring it backwards with the assumption that the later rule was just a clarification of the earlier rule. Keep in mind that anything written after AD&D 1E was probably done without Gary's input. Just my two cents, and the beaten horse is probably dead at this point. I suspect we won't agree on this issue, which is fine. I doubt that anyone at this point will have an epiphany and suddenly convert to the side of the other.
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Post by aldarron on Dec 22, 2022 6:59:00 GMT -6
Keep in mind, pop is a mid-western colloquialism for soda No, "soda" is a yankee colloquialism for soft drinks. Anyway who wants to drink a dry white powder that comes in a box!
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Post by derv on Dec 22, 2022 7:46:21 GMT -6
This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. Curious how you would than express “every other day” in that sentence with the intent of skipping a day?
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 22, 2022 9:16:30 GMT -6
This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. Curious how you would than express “every other day” in that sentence with the intent of skipping a day? If the author wanted to state every day, I imagine removing the word "other" gets the point across, since the word "thereafter" makes it clear that these days are "other" than the first day. Thus [with a comma changed to a semi-colon and some other commas thrown in to help]: "On the first day of complete rest, no hit points will be regained; but every other day thereafter, one hit point will be regained until the character is completely healed." Another aside, if 1 HP is alleviated every day after the first, then that's 6 HP a game week. That makes the next sentence, "This can take a long time," seem odd to me; because if a 4th-level Hero has, on average, 14 HP, then that character heals all but 1 HP in two game weeks, assuming the character has accrued 13 HP (or was reduced to 1 HP). Practically, that means missing out on only 1 adventure if the player wanted the character to be nearly all healed. That's not a long time at all. In fact, that's super quick. And that's if the character was 1 HP away from death.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 22, 2022 10:27:36 GMT -6
This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. Curious how you would than express “every other day” in that sentence with the intent of skipping a day? What about "every second day thereafter"?
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 22, 2022 11:09:04 GMT -6
This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. Curious how you would than express “every other day” in that sentence with the intent of skipping a day? Maybe "every odd day" or "every even day" or "every two days" or some such. I'm sure there is a way to do it.
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 22, 2022 11:31:34 GMT -6
This is good point if we we're interested in the historical archeology of the game. Yet the text says, in it's most commonly taken usage, that a character alleviates/regains 1 hp on the 3rd day, 1 hp on the 5th day, and 1 hp on the 7th day. Because communication is not solely bound up in what the sender intends. This is one of the most strange statements I've ever seen on these boards. The entire purpose of these boards is to discuss OD&D, its rules and its history. What the authors intended, and how the authors actually played, seems like one of our primary purposes. It seems really strange to say, "Well, this is what they did but the other is the way I read it so my interpretation trumps the intent." This is very interesting indeed. Fin, is it fair to say you're saying the primary purpose of this board is to ensure players replicate (as closely as possible) the game play of its originators? I see one benefit of this board (one of many, mind you) being that we might be able to play as the ancestors did. I'll admit, the above purpose statement is a bit of a shock, given how many people have said they enjoy seeing the myriad ways people play the game based on the various readings of the text, and the various approaches they take on interpreting that text. While I'm an avid fan and admirer of using cross-text analysis to get at author intention for the purpose of replicating as much as possible the original game play, I also see how one can enjoy and play the game (in perhaps a very unique way) by merely "opening the box and getting to it," if you will. Which is the approach I'm taking in this example of HP. I've opened up the box, read the turn of phrase, "every other day," and am applying it in its most commonly used application, fully agreeing that if one wants to interpret it in another way, that's cool. I'm not judging. (I might even like the other interpretation.) ... even if Gary were to come down from on high and say, "I meant every day, 1 HP every day, d**n it!"
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 22, 2022 11:48:54 GMT -6
Now, if I were to say, "I go for a run every other day", what does that mean to you? Would it change in meaning if I said, "I didn't run yesterday, but I go for a run every other day"? This, exactly! The first is a general statement, the second compares one to the rest and that's the way @alderon and I read it. This is good point if we we're interested in the historical archeology of the game. Yet the text says, in it's most commonly taken usage, that a character alleviates/regains 1 hp on the 3rd day, 1 hp on the 5th day, and 1 hp on the 7th day. Because communication is not solely bound up in what the sender intends. .... I don't think that Dave and Gary were doing that stuff at all. They thought that the best way to learn D&D was to experience it and learn from the experience, and putting the rules on paper were a consequence of wanting to allow others to play without getting that experience. They knew how they played. They just weren't always precise in the linguistics of how to convey this. .... Agreed. And yet what is one purpose of recording one's thoughts in writing if not to convey one's intentions when unable to verbally or experientially convey them in the moment? That said, even the most well written set of commands/steps can never fully prevent the possibility of intentional or unintentional deviations from the intent of the author. This thread being dedicated, of course, to my parents, the Pope and Mother Teresa.
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Post by derv on Dec 22, 2022 13:31:00 GMT -6
Curious how you would than express “every other day” in that sentence with the intent of skipping a day? What about "every second day thereafter"? What happens on the fourth day?
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 22, 2022 13:34:16 GMT -6
OD&D: "On the first day of complete rest no hit points will be regained, but every other day thereafter one hit point will be regained until the character is completely healed. This can take a long time." Holmes Basic: "Hit points can be restored, if the character is alive, by a clerical healing spell, a healing potion or some other magical item. Otherwise he must continue on in his wounded state until the game is over and he returns to the surface. Each day of rest and recuperation back "home" will regenerate 1 to 3 of his hit points for the next adventure." B/X: "To cure wounds by resting, the wounded creature must relax in a safe place, and may do nothing but rest. Each full day of complete rest will restore 1-3 hit points (roll Id6; 1 or 2 indicates 1; 3 or 4 indicates 2; 5 or 6 indicates 3)." AD&D1 [PHB]: "The most mundane is by resting and allowing time to do the iob. For each day of rest, 1 hit point of damage is restored. After 30 game days have passed, hit points accrue at the rate of 5 per day thereafter." BECMI: No mention I can find. AD&D2: "Characters heal naturally at a rate of 1 hit point per day of rest. Rest is defined as low activity-nothing more strenuous than riding a horse or traveling from one place to another. Fighting, running in fear, lifting a heavy boulder, or any other physical activity, prevents resting, since it strains old wounds and may even reopen them. If a character has complete bed rest (doing nothing for an entire day), he can regain 3 hit points for the day. For each complete week of bed rest, the character can add any Constitution hit point bonus he might have to the base of 21 points (3 points per day) he regained during that week." AD&D1 DMG: "For game purposes it is absolutely necessary that the character rest in order to recuperate, i.e. any combat, spell using, or similar activity does not constitute rest, so no hit points can be regained. For each day of rest a character will regain 1 hit point, up to and including 7 days. However a character with a penalty for poor constitution must deduct weekly the penalty score from his or her days of healing, i.e., a -2 for a person means that 5 hit points healing per week is maximum, and the first two days of rest will restore no hit points. After the first week of continuous rest, characters with a bonus for high constitution add the bonus score to the number of hit points they recover due to resting, i.e., the second week of rest will restore 11 (7 + 4) hit points to a fighter character with an 18 constitution. Regardless of the number of hit points a character has, 4 weeks of continuous rest will restore any character to full strength." Nice compilation. I'll add that the rule from Holmes Basic is in the Holmes Manuscript, so Holmes wrote that bit. I don't know where he got the 1-3 from since it's not in OD&D. I looked in the 1975 Warlock and didn't see anything about natural healing rates. This seems to be one of the rules that Holmes introduced that was then retained for B/X. I'll also add: B1 In Search of the Unknown (1978 monochrome printing): "The passage of a day - or 24 hours - will mean the healing of 1 hit point of damage for each character." (page 5) B2 Keep on the Borderlands (1980 original printing for Holmes Basic): "Remember that player characters heal 1-3 points naturally every 24 hours of full rest" (page 4). So the rule in B2 matches that of Holmes Basic, but that in B1 is closer to a simplified version of that in either OD&D (assuming the every day interpretation) or the AD&D PHB, which came out the same year (1978). Notably, B1 includes some other OD&D/AD&D-isms, like demi-human thieves in the pre-gens.
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 22, 2022 14:47:03 GMT -6
I don't use the healing rates of the book, though I've never fully settled on exactly one way of doing it. Generally 2-5 points the first week, with increasing returns each week after.
The one thing I have strictly implemented for the past few years, in my solo games and one-shots, has been that all damage requires natural healing, even if magically healed during the adventure. It doesn't matter how much total damage you've taken, all that matters is your lowest hit point total. For instance, if a character with 22 hit points were to take lots of hits and heal lots of hits over the course of the adventure, but ultimately dropped as low as 2 hit points, then the character would need to rest for 20hp's worth of natural healing days to recuperate.
Of course this is 100% houseruled, but I like it. As the game stands, there is a threshold where the party carries enough healing magic that there is no longer any need to rest. Once this happens, the campaign gameplay grinds to a standstill, because it takes a day or two to heal everyone up and they're right back out again. Players can volunteer to have their characters sit out doing "downtime" activities, but why would they when it might take a whole summer just to advance the game clock by two weeks? With this house rule, rest periods are still enforced and the campaign clock keeps ticking forward quite incessantly.
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Post by Piper on Dec 22, 2022 15:28:08 GMT -6
I believe if Dave still posted here, and Gary was still around to do the same, they would both tell you the same thing with no hesitation at all:
The right way to do it is the way that seems right to you as the referee (and secondarily to your players). The truth is, if two people read the text and come up with two different interpretations, neither are wrong.
All I can tell you is my words here aren’t meant to be offensive, so please forgive if they come across that way. Feel free to contact me through the messaging system for a personal apology if I upset you rather than starting an argument here on the forum.
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Post by derv on Dec 22, 2022 20:22:44 GMT -6
Is there tension in this thread? I was finding good humor in the discussion. No offense intended and no offense taken. Honestly, I couldn't help but think of the Abbot and Costello's who's on first routine. Lou, "You mean every other day?" Bud, "Yes, every other day." Lou, "Then my character has regained 2 hit points by Tuesday." Bud, "No, I said every other day!" Lou, On a practical note, I'll usually let my players characters regain every other hit point...just kidding. I'll let them regain all their hit points between sessions if they have made it back to town. We just kind of hand wave passage of time between games.
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Post by Piper on Dec 22, 2022 20:50:24 GMT -6
Is there tension in this thread? I’ve found it wise to err on the side of caution when I post here.
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ThrorII
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 109
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Post by ThrorII on Dec 22, 2022 20:57:54 GMT -6
I've always read it to mean 'on day one you don't heal, but on each subsequent day you heal 1 hit point'.
In the sense that "I didn't eat cereal this morning, but I do eat it every other morning."
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Post by jamesmishler on Dec 23, 2022 10:56:38 GMT -6
In OD&D, all HD are d6s and you have at best +1 HP per HD. A 1st level fighter has a maximum of 8 HP (1d6+1+1=8). Healing once every other day means you can be healed 7 HP in two weeks.
In AD&D a fighter has a d10 for HD and can get up to +4 HP per HD. A 1st level fighter has a maximum of 14 hp (1d10+4=14). On average you would heal 14 hp per week, 18 with that Con bonus of +4.
So the AD&D healing system was increased to account for the hit point increase.
Evidence of this adjustment between editions and common usage of "every other day" suggests the interpretation that healing occurs every 2 days in OD&D.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 23, 2022 11:01:56 GMT -6
Holmes Basic: "Hit points can be restored, if the character is alive, by a clerical healing spell, a healing potion or some other magical item. Otherwise he must continue on in his wounded state until the game is over and he returns to the surface. Each day of rest and recuperation back "home" will regenerate 1 to 3 of his hit points for the next adventure. B2 Keep on the Borderlands (1980 original printing for Holmes Basic): "Remember that player characters heal 1-3 points naturally every 24 hours of full rest" (page 4). So the rule in B2 matches that of Holmes Basic... That's how I do it. In a situation such as, "Hey, ref, we rest until we're all healed up," I have been known to simplify by assuming 2 hp healed for each day of rest.
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Post by Zenopus on Dec 23, 2022 16:11:35 GMT -6
Since Holmes' 1 to 3 HP matches the levels covered by Basic, one idea I've had is to have the amount regained correspond to level. 1 HP per day at 1st, 2 HP per day at 2nd, etc, and then extend that progression to higher levels. Possibly modified by the Constitution bonus/penalty per day.
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Post by retrorob on Dec 23, 2022 17:51:42 GMT -6
Wonderful thread, thank you guys! Not being a native English speaker, I've found it particularly interesting, especially parts about "mid-western colloquial English". I believe Finarvyn nailed it: what was quite obvious back then, doesn't have to be understandable nowadays for a guy hailing from the other side of the ocean I must admit that I always interpreted "every other day" as 1 hp in 2 days (so on the 2nd, 4th, etc.). To the collection of quotes I would add EPT which is pretty straightforward: One more thing. It's really weird that Moldvay's Basic has a rule about natural healing and BECMI/RC does not.
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