Dwarves And New Construction

[dicebro]

Why is it significant that dwarves are better at detecting “new construction”? What does “New Construction” signify as compared to old construction? When does the newness wear off? Why should an adventuring party care?  How can I incorporate this important detail into my dungeon crawls? Thanks.

[talysman]

I think the point is that they can tell the difference between new and old construction. In other words, is this area abandoned, or being modified by current inhabitants?

[Desparil]

Also, remember that Castle Greyhawk was designed for repeated delving. If a new trap were installed in a previously-mapped area, a dwarf might notice that new construction.

[cometaryorbit]

Dec 23, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Also, remember that Castle Greyhawk was designed for repeated delving. If a new trap were installed in a previously-mapped area, a dwarf might notice that new construction.

Yeah, probably this.

However, I would think it might also mean the ability to notice incongruous things, significantly newer than the rest of the stonework in the area - like a side cave that was walled off by monsters to control/limit the number of entrance/exit paths to their lair, a door that had been plastered over to hide it, etc.

I wouldn't think it would necessarily take a dwarf to notice a change in an area already mapped, unless it was something concealed like a trap. (A new wall built, or a doorway added where there previously was a wall, ought to be noticeable to anyone if previously mapped.)

[Red Baron]

A wall of stone spell would count as new construction.

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Also, remember that Castle Greyhawk was designed for repeated delving. If a new trap were installed in a previously-mapped area, a dwarf might notice that new construction.

This is the essence of where the class ability intersects with the game as it was intended to be ran with these rules. Explorers delve as far as they dare into the ruined heap. They return to the surface to hawk their loot and lick their wounds. They return a week later or so, and some passages have shifted, either because busy little Kobolds have been at work or because the Dungeon is alive and inexplicable, or whatever. Take your pick. Suddenly Gandalf has no memory of this place, etc. and you need a Dwarf to guide you. 

[dicebro]

Okay, thanks for the replies, but why is detect new construction an important advantage for “the game”? Why did it matter to Gygax and Arneson whether or not the newness of the construction was detectable? New Monsters could be there regardless. New construction since the last delve would indicate that intelligent monsters are present, and intelligent monsters are distracted by gold. Might that be the reason? Are there any other advantages to knowing this? This aspect of dwarves never seemed to be revisited. Did the early players of the game understand the game function of “detect new construction”? Thanks for anything else you can come up with. I would like to find a function for this ability in my campaign, other than giving it lip service.

[Vile Traveller]

Dec 24, 2020 0:52:40 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Where I live, there is a striking difference in older and new architecture. I can see how the ability makes sense. All of these places are within a 5-minute walk from each other. (This post now moved to a separate thread here)

I like the look of where you live! But most people would be able to spot the difference there, so I don't think that's what the dwarven ability is aimed at. I've always seen it as revealing deliberately hidden construction, such as a walled-off corridor attempting to pass itself off as old brickwork or a trapdoor installed in a flagstone floor. That's where I think the "game advantage" of the ability comes in. It's kind of a detect traps/secret doors skill, more narrowly defined.

[dicebro]

Dec 23, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Also, remember that Castle Greyhawk was designed for repeated delving. If a new trap were installed in a previously-mapped area, a dwarf might notice that new construction.

But the dwarf can already detect traps. Or is the function of “detect new construction” to give the party hints? It’s a power that doesn’t seem to make any difference. Why wouldn’t a referee just tell the party that they see new construction? Or don’t tell them.  I just can’t find a good reason to make this a “skill check”.  But thanks for responding. I rally appreciate your thoughts. I’m not attacking them, just trying to scrutinize why the ability was included in the OD&D booklets. 

[tombowings]

Dec 24, 2020 7:28:02 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Dec 24, 2020 0:52:40 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Where I live, there is a striking difference in older and new architecture. I can see how the ability makes sense. All of these places are within a 5-minute walk from each other.

I like the look of where you live! But most people would be able to spot the difference there, so I don't think that's what the dwarven ability is aimed at. I've always seen it as revealing deliberately hidden construction, such as a walled-off corridor attempting to pass itself off as old brickwork or a trapdoor installed in a flagstone floor. That's where I think the "game advantage" of the ability comes in. It's kind of a detect traps/secret doors skill, more narrowly defined.

I guess, I don't limited dwarves to mere detection. In my game, a dwarf who successfully "detects" new construction knows something about it. "This area was carved by lizard men about 300 years ago." "That one was carved by goblins in the past few months."

[Vile Traveller]

I might throw in historical knowledge if I feel it's appropriate in the context, but a strict reading of the ability is really only about the engineering and not who built it:

3) they note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings;

[tombowings]

Dec 24, 2020 8:16:56 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I might throw in historical knowledge if I feel it's appropriate in the context, but a strict reading of the ability is really only about the engineering and not who built it:

3) they note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings;

I don't think the rules are meant to be read strictly. But that could be a philosophical difference.

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2020 7:28:54 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Dec 23, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -6 Desparil said:

Also, remember that Castle Greyhawk was designed for repeated delving. If a new trap were installed in a previously-mapped area, a dwarf might notice that new construction.

But the dwarf can already detect traps. Or is the function of “detect new construction” to give the party hints? It’s a power that doesn’t seem to make any difference. Why wouldn’t a referee just tell the party that they see new construction? Or don’t tell them.  I just can’t find a good reason to make this a “skill check”.  But thanks for responding. I rally appreciate your thoughts. I’m not attacking them, just trying to scrutinize why the ability was included in the OD&D booklets. 

Well, if nothing else, those "Wait, this wasn'na here before, laddie" moments for the Dwarf character are memorable, and present somewhat of a sense of either foreboding or enticement for further treasure/adventures, don't they? 

[dicebro]

Dec 24, 2020 10:25:23 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Dec 24, 2020 7:28:54 GMT -6 dicebro said:

But the dwarf can already detect traps. Or is the function of “detect new construction” to give the party hints? It’s a power that doesn’t seem to make any difference. Why wouldn’t a referee just tell the party that they see new construction? Or don’t tell them.  I just can’t find a good reason to make this a “skill check”.  But thanks for responding. I rally appreciate your thoughts. I’m not attacking them, just trying to scrutinize why the ability was included in the OD&D booklets. 

Well, if nothing else, those "Wait, this wasn'na here before, laddie" moments for the Dwarf character are memorable, and present somewhat of a sense of either foreboding or enticement for further treasure/adventures, don't they? 

My dwarves aren’t Scottish, heh.  
From reading the various replies, We are left with 3 potential explanations.
1)“Detect New Construction” is there for Dwarf in the party role-play moments. I.e no real function that gives an advantage to the party, other than entertainment for the players. This seems to be more of an incidental “benefit” for the players rather than something life saving for the characters. So I kind of doubt that was why it was included.

2) its important to spot new construction underground in order to learn that intelligent monsters are possibly nearby.  The function is that the dwarf could tip off the party to have coins ready to throw down in order to distract the intelligent monsters in case the party needs to flee.  But shouldn’t a party know this anyway? The advantage is negligible.

3) It’s there to save the party from some kind of danger other than traps, sliding passages or the general possibility of nearby intelligent monsters.  Protecting the party from something specific is the most logical reason for why “detect new construction” was included. What horrible thing can happen if you fail to detect “new construction”?  I’ve just never heard of a player saying “okay my Dwarf is looking for new construction”.   To what other specific danger was Gygax and/or Arneson referring when they wrote this phrase.  Please let us know if you ever find out.

[dicebro]

Thanks for hijacking my thread with photos of crappy architecture. I can see that I’m not taken seriously. I guess it’s time to move on.

[Desparil]

In Castle Greyhawk, mapping was considered a big part of the challenge and lots of the tricks were intended to confound mapping. If significant changes were made to an area that you've already been before, and you don't realize that some of it is newly-constructed, then you might be tricked into thinking you took a wrong turn, or question the accuracy of the prior map, or become convinced that you've been teleported or turned around. A dwarf being able to tell you for certain that this is indeed the same location, but has simply changed since the last time you visited, is a boon to accurate mapping.

[Zenopus]

Dec 24, 2020 16:29:40 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Thanks for hijacking my thread with photos of crappy architecture. I can see that I’m not taken seriously. I guess it’s time to move on.

A forum thrives on a robust back-and-forth, which will naturally include some tangents and digressions. Looking over the posts above, I don't see anything out of line, and I do see many on-topic replies to your questions.

However, since the images are a bit overbearing, I split those posts into a separate thread:

odd74.proboards.com/thread/14618/examples-old-construction-split-dwarves

[dicebro]

My question has morphed into: what is the danger associated with “new construction” as distinguished from the other three categories (traps, shifting walls and slanting passages).
I recall going to the Middle East many years ago. There was a lot of “new construction” going on. And that meant there were lots of potential safety hazards that an average joe might not be able to quickly discern. Not traps specifically but mainly holes in the ground and floors. Ithink that I may have answered my own question. Please post if you can think of anything else. Best wishes to all.

[cometaryorbit]

Dec 24, 2020 20:11:29 GMT -6 dicebro said:

My question has morphed into: what is the danger associated with “new construction” as distinguished from the other three categories (traps, shifting walls and slanting passages).
I recall going to the Middle East many years ago. There was a lot of “new construction” going on. And that meant there were lots of potential safety hazards that an average joe might not be able to quickly discern. Not traps specifically but mainly holes in the ground and floors.

That is definitely one possibility.

I think it could also provide clues to new areas/treasure as well as dangers, depending on how the "new" is interpreted: if it just means "incongruously newer than the surrounding stonework" rather than "done in the last couple of weeks", it could find things like plastered-over doors.

[tombowings]

Back in the day, Gary was always expanding his dungeon. "New construction" might have referred to Gary's recent additions to Greyhawk dungeon. These new sub-levels (I assume) would have been rife with treasure and mysteries other competing players hadn't yet uncovered.

[dicebro]

Dec 24, 2020 23:43:26 GMT -6 tombowings said:

Back in the day, Gary was always expanding his dungeon. "New construction" might have referred to Gary's recent additions to Greyhawk dungeon. These new sub-levels (I assume) would have been rife with treasure and mysteries others competing players hadn't yet uncovered.

Possibly the best response yet IMO. Thanks.  Yes, new construction could be a signal for... “you can go this way now that this passage is no longer a dead end.”  But why isn’t this just something the referee tells the party?  Not every party has a dwarf. Under this explanation the “Note new construction” advantage is kind of a pseudo-advantage in the sense that the players need to know this or “there won’t be a dungeon crawl tonight folks.” No Dwarf? No Dice!   Unless the party hasn’t explored other parts of the dungeon.  Oh well, thanks again for a thoughtful response.

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2020 12:53:34 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Not to gloss over the other valid questions you pose, but this one stood out to me because this kind of question/statement actually was quite common in my childhood gaming group. We were told Dwarves (in the BECMI and 2e sense, inherited from OD&D and Holmes) could notice new construction and kinda ran with that. Dwarf characters were my favorite and I usually asked if anything had changed or looked new or different if revisiting a dungeon or city. I don't even remember what we rolled, if anything, but I distinctly remember asking and hearing the question from others. Same with the Elf's special abilities to note secret doors and the like. We kinda treated this stuff like super powers different character types had. The Red Box used the race as class thing so we kinda took the defining, stereotypical traits and magnified them. 

Now that I've taken that trip down memory lane, I can recall at least one instance where it helped in a town setting - my Dwarf noticed a new building and it turned out to be a little corner shop selling rare and exotic goods, and that's how we got an interesting "Little Shop of Horrors" side quest. I guess in this instance it was a combination of a player willing to ask that question and a DM that was prepared to answer the question in a meaningful way. Obviously if you lack either of those elements it can be seen as a rather superfluous and baffling class ability. So, like many other things OD&D, it depends on the group dynamic.

[hamurai]

Dec 25, 2020 7:01:24 GMT -6 dicebro said:

 Yes, new construction could be a signal for... “you can go this way now that this passage is no longer a dead end.”  But why isn’t this just something the referee tells the party? 

In my games, "new constructions" include new secret doors, too, if they were added later on. "New construction" includes pretty much everything that is discernably younger than the surroundings, which may be a dungeon part built into an ancient pyramid only 400 years ago. And everything that was added to a natural cavern, for example. Traps, secret doors, stuff like that.

[dicebro]

“New construction” also got me to thinking about modern day construction zones and all of the dangers associated therein. Maybe that’s where a “helmet” actually becomes useful in this game.

[Deleted]

Dec 25, 2020 21:14:48 GMT -6 dicebro said:

“New construction” also got me to thinking about modern day construction zones and all of the dangers associated therein. Maybe that’s where a “helmet” actually becomes useful in this game.

Could be! Now you have me picturing Dwarves wearing modern-style construction helmets and for some reason that seems appropriate.

[Deleted]

Dec 25, 2020 11:09:32 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Dec 25, 2020 7:01:24 GMT -6 dicebro said:

 Yes, new construction could be a signal for... “you can go this way now that this passage is no longer a dead end.”  But why isn’t this just something the referee tells the party? 

In my games, "new constructions" include new secret doors, too, if they were added later on. "New construction" includes pretty much everything that is discernably younger than the surroundings, which may be a dungeon part built into an ancient pyramid only 400 years ago. And everything that was added to a natural cavern, for example. Traps, secret doors, stuff like that.

To add to this, it interconnects somewhat with the Dwarven social mechanics. "New construction" in a dungeon is likely done by a race with mining and construction abilities. Dwarves, Gnomes, Kobolds and the more intelligent strain of Goblin could perform new construction. Since Dwarves are familiar with all these races and can speak their dialects, and have social lore for them, it clicks flawlessly with their ability to spot their stonework.

[howandwhy99]

I think the game includes gaming the environment, iconically the underground dungeon. Dwarves are miners and earth and stone builders, so as a race they have the ability to recognize elements of these constructions without levels in an NPC Engineer class.

Check the cressets to see if they are hot. A breeze! What direction is it coming from? Why is there no dust in this room of the crypt? Plumbing pipes? Where do they go through the walls? (get your familiar). Look, footprints! A blood trail! Scratches! Why are there holes in this wall?

These are examples of D&D game design not just play. So is all of construction. As there are no expectations on where the players go or what they do, new constructions are secrets for the players to discover. The discoveries should usually benefit their situation when found. At the very least they allow more options for their planning.

New constructions are like searching for secret doors or caches. A stretch of wall, a floor, or a ceiling. What does that mean? Maybe it is door-shaped, or window-shaped? Perhaps an entire room, corridor or dungeon section is new? Maybe it is vastly older?

Without dwarves the level may be designed so these changes cannot be found easily (like Elves with secret doors). This isn't meant to hide or short circuit the "adventure" (the design is the adventure). What matters are the Players' expectations. These are how they are gaming each situation.

Moving from indoors to outdoors or constructed dungeons to caves and caverns should speak to the players. They should learn to understand what is more likely to expect and change travelling / exploration tactics to accommodate. A bricked up room might mean a safe haven for rest and respite instead of camping in the wilds outside (for awhile anyways).

[gemini476]

The intended use-cases, in any case, are pretty clear from Volume 3. Compare:
M&M p.7

they note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings

TU&WA p.5

3. This area illustrates the use of slanting passages [e.n. flat corridors not at 90° angles to each other] to help prevent players from accurately mapping a level (exact deviation from cardinal points is quite difficult for them to ascertain).
[...]
5. The combinations here are really vicious, and unless you're out to get your players it is not suggested for actual use. Passage south "D" is a slanting corridor [e.n. slanting downwards] which will take them at least one level deeper, and if the slope is gentle even dwarves won't recognize it.

See also points 6 & 7 for shifting walls.
TU&WA p.6

Tricks and Traps
[...]
Steps which lead to a slanting passage, so the player may actually stay on the same level, descent two levels, or ascend two levels

TU&WA p.8

Maintaining Freshness: [Alongside the problem of players clearing a level of monsters and thus making it dull,] players will have made fairly accurate maps of the level, so it will be challengeless this way also. Remembering that egress to lower levels is desirable, one must nevertheless revamp worn levels by one or more of the several methods suggested below:
1. Make minor alterations with eraser and pencil, blocking passages, making new ones, dividing rooms, and filling in others.
2. Extend the boundaries of the map, if not already filled to the edges of the paper, adding corridors and rooms.
[...]
4. Reverse directions on the map, carefully relocating ways down to the lower levels so as they still correspond to markings below, and do the same for passages upwards.
5. Add a passage which continues past the established boundary of the level, creating a split or sub-level which it leads to, complete with new treasure and monsters.

tl;dr: the dwarf's ability to note slanting passages and shifting walls is meant to aid in dungeon exploration to foil those traps, and their ability to note new construction exists to let them know if something is a recent addition to the dungeon (and thus probably has new monsters and loot in it).

They're not abilities that are particularly relevant in a modern dungeon, but are very relevant to the type of Castle Greyhawk megadungeon play that Gygax assumed would be the default back in '74. The ability to note new construction did survive all the way into 4E, somehow, but got cut for 5E. 3.5E was the last time it was specifically noted as a thing Dwarves could do, though.

[dicebro]

Please Allow me to rephrase my Question: If there is no dwarf in the party, then does the party not get to “note new construction”?   

[Zenopus]

Jan 25, 2021 21:48:05 GMT -6 dicebro said:

Please Allow me to rephrase my Question: If there is no dwarf in the party, then does the party not get to “note new construction”?   

Note that the dwarf entry says "they note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings", as contrasted with an elf's "more able to note secret and hidden doors". The dwarf entry omits "more able", suggesting that other character types have no ability to note these things.