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Post by dicebro on Jan 26, 2021 9:47:51 GMT -6
Please Allow me to rephrase my Question: If there is no dwarf in the party, then does the party not get to “note new construction”? Note that the dwarf entry says "they note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction in underground settings", as contrasted with an elf's "more able to note secret and hidden doors". The dwarf entry omits "more able", suggesting that other character types have no ability to note these things. That was my interpretation too. I would like to know more about how the “note ... new construction in underground settings” was applied by Gygax, Arneson or other early groups, in their use of the 3LBBs (Not AD&D, or even the supplements). Was anything ever discussed or published about this before AD&D was published?
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Post by Zenopus on Jan 26, 2021 12:27:22 GMT -6
Looking into this a bit... ---In Eldritch Wizardry (April 1976 per the Acaeum), the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords says: "it confers on its user all of the natural abilities of dwarves. i.e., infravisions, the ability to detect sloping passages, traps and new construction." This is pretty much just in line with the original, but they did have an opportunity to clarify the rules here if they had wanted to. ---In Dragon #4 (October '76), the article a "New View of Dwarves" by Larry Smith says: "They note slanting passages, traps, shifting walls & rooms on a die roll of 1-4 on a six sided die. Noting new construction is done automatically". This is by a non-TSR author so unclear how much weight to give it. ---In the Holmes Manuscript (completed by February 1977), Holmes had "Underground, they can detect slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction", and Gary (or possibly another editor at TSR) changed this to "Underground, they can detect slanting passages, traps, shifting walls and new construction about one-third of the time" (emphasis added) for the published version (July 1977). zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2013/11/part-3-elves-must-decide.htmlWhether that is a change to the original rules, or just a clarification of an omission, is not clear, but the 1-2 in 6 chance is in line with the other OD&D skills. And it is still not clear here whether the ability must be actively used (like ordinary searching for secret doors or listening) or is automatic (like an elf "sensing" secret doors when passing by). That's all of the later OD&D-era references to the dwarven abilities that I found by text searching the original books & supplements and Dragon. ---When the Monster Manual came out at the end of 1977 it greatly increased the percentages over what was given in Holmes: "Because of their mining skills, dwarves are good (50% to 75% likely) at detecting passages which slope upwards or downwards, sliding or shifting walls or rooms, new construction, approximate depth, or unusual stonework". These percentages were further elaborated on in the PHB, which further finally clarifies that the "dwarven character must be actively seeking to determine the phenomenon in question in order to be able to determine the answer; the information does not simply spring to mind unbidden".
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Post by dicebro on Jan 27, 2021 10:44:58 GMT -6
I want to personally thank everyone who has posted to this thread. You have been wonderful. Thank you.
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Post by retrorob on Jan 27, 2021 12:36:07 GMT -6
Vol. III, p. 4: I guess Dwarves just can tell what was builded recently in the dungeon. Probably they can do it automatically, x-in-6 rule seems to be added later. As for traps and secret doors, I follow Gygax additions for DUNGEON! Dwarves simply ignore traps, but they don't have any bonus to locate secret doors/passages:
Let's not forget about the Bufkin Manuscript. BTPBD, p. 3:
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
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Post by muddy on Jan 27, 2021 12:54:04 GMT -6
I wouldn't think it would necessarily take a dwarf to notice a change in an area already mapped, unless it was something concealed like a trap. (A new wall built, or a doorway added where there previously was a wall, ought to be noticeable to anyone if previously mapped.)
Failed expectations could lead the party to believe they were lost, or teleported. If they were lost it could make it more difficult to regain their bearings.
So if the party is lost or isn't entirely certain of their location, it would matter a lot. ("No, we are in the intersection you say, the north passage was walled off within the past week"), and it could even matter if they thought they knew where they were.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Jan 28, 2021 5:46:26 GMT -6
I wouldn't think it would necessarily take a dwarf to notice a change in an area already mapped, unless it was something concealed like a trap. (A new wall built, or a doorway added where there previously was a wall, ought to be noticeable to anyone if previously mapped.)
Failed expectations could lead the party to believe they were lost, or teleported. If they were lost it could make it more difficult to regain their bearings.
So if the party is lost or isn't entirely certain of their location, it would matter a lot. ("No, we are in the intersection you say, the north passage was walled off within the past week"), and it could even matter if they thought they knew where they were.
Ah, good point! I was thinking "well, anyone could see that there is a wall here now when there wasn't before", but you are absolutely right - confirming that it is *new* stonework would be useful to confirm one is really in the same place.
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Post by clownboss on Jan 29, 2021 9:00:13 GMT -6
Gronan always used to talk about Dwarves smelling out Trolls in the first level of Castle Greyhawk, so that's one more thing I like to include: A keen and encyclopediac sense of smell.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Jan 29, 2021 18:54:04 GMT -6
Please Allow me to rephrase my Question: If there is no dwarf in the party, then does the party not get to “note new construction”? It depends on how you wish to run it. I think search rolls are appropriate For any player . But non-dwarves Are not told Specifically the conclusion . The players can pick up Clues And figure it out on their own. For example, They may Circle all around the dungeon And find a possible shortcut corridor back to the beginning only to discover a dead end wall unfinished on this side. Or they may notice absences in the dungeon design (e.g. Prince Thrommel)
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Post by dicebro on Jan 29, 2021 19:34:42 GMT -6
Please Allow me to rephrase my Question: If there is no dwarf in the party, then does the party not get to “note new construction”? It depends on how you wish to run it. I think search rolls are appropriate For any player . But non-dwarves Are not told Specifically the conclusion . The players can pick up Clues And figure it out on their own. For example, They may Circle all around the dungeon And find a possible shortcut corridor back to the beginning only to discover a dead end wall unfinished on this side. Or they may notice absences in the dungeon design (e.g. Prince Thrommel) But if a Dwarf is in the party, then the Ref passes the player a note: “New Construction!”
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Post by SebastianDM on Feb 2, 2021 15:51:57 GMT -6
I think it is significant to note that the section about maintaining freshness in the Beyond This Point Be Dragons pre-D&D manuscript actually mentions "new construction" using those exact words. The majority of the section seems to be exactly the same as in the longer section in U&WA, so it could have been expanded from that.
The special abilities of the dwarf, however, are not given in those words in this version. they are instead given as "are quite at home underground, and have an unshakable sense of direction in caverns."
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