|
|
Post by Zulgyan on May 14, 2020 12:07:40 GMT -6
Does anybody here use B/X style ability score bonuses in OD&D? Specially keeping monster HD 1d6. I think delta does (though keeping 18 as +2). Anybody can share their experience with that? |
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on May 14, 2020 14:02:13 GMT -6
I usually just use B/X, although I've thought about incorporating B/X bonuses to OD&D. It shouldn't break the game, especially if you keep all weapon damage at 1d6.
|
|
|
|
Post by thegreyelf on May 14, 2020 14:17:54 GMT -6
Truth be told, MOST of us probably houserule our OD&D to some extent. I doubt very much there's anyone who plays it strictly by the book. I'd GUESS that B/X stat bonuses are probably one of the more common adoptions, since they streamline the whole process. Then again, I'm also sure there will be a litany of folks replying here going, "NOT ME!!! NEVER!!!"  |
|
|
|
Post by Vile Traveller on May 14, 2020 17:00:30 GMT -6
It's the most common question asked of me about BLUEHOLME. I'll probably add a bunch of optional rules to the Referee Repository at some point, starting with ability bonuses.
|
|
|
|
Post by delta on May 14, 2020 19:30:57 GMT -6
Thanks for the shout-out! :-) It's true that when I went to smooth out the ability bonuses for my game, looking at Vol-1 p. 11, most of the abilities listed there have more than one modifier category up and down. E.g.: prime requisites have 2 up & down (3-6/7-8/9-12/13-14/15-18), constitution has the same, charisma has 3 up & down... only dexterity has a single category of modifier up & down.
So on average it looks to me like 2 up & down is what's trying to emerge from the system. Making the span of each category 3 nicely splits the "low" (3-8) and "high" (13-18) classes described on that page in half. Even niftier to me is that the standard deviation of a 3d6 roll is almost exactly 3, so doing it this way is equivalent to talking about "number of standard deviations from the mean" (z-score in statistical parlance). And having up to +/-2 seems reasonable on d6 type rolls.
Plus having set that range of 3, we can smoothly scale it up past 18 for things like giants, magical strength boosts, etc. I can sort of see why Moldvay/Cook did what they did (so close!) but that 1-pip range in the last category makes it impossible to scale smoothly past that point -- you should see the utterly insane method Mentzer put in his Immortals set to support that.
|
|
|
|
Post by Zulgyan on May 14, 2020 19:51:23 GMT -6
What has been your experience with +2 damage fighters and the d6 HD standart for monsters? Does it work just ok?
|
|
|
|
Post by waysoftheearth on May 14, 2020 21:39:39 GMT -6
It's also significant what type of die is being adjusted. So, frex, +1 means a whole lot more on a d6 (hit points, damage) than it does on a d20 (to hit). I posted some conjecture on this a while back... In that context, it may be worth considering whether (or not?) the 3LBB adjustments were written with 2d6/d6 throws in mind. Equally plausible (or implausible?) is that the (transition to?) d20-scale adjustments may have landed with GH. |
|
|
|
Post by hamurai on May 15, 2020 2:42:02 GMT -6
Depends on how I want to run a game, really. Sometimes I like to lean towards B/X, sometimes OD&D by the book (concerning the stat bonuses, at least), but I've also gotten rid of the bonuses completely with no problem. The by-the-book bonuses are not that high anyway.
Mostly I stick to a simplified system, like Swords & Wizardry Continual Light gives a bonus for every stat of 15+, but I don't like punishing bad rolls. Similarly with XP bonus/penalty.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 15, 2020 13:49:30 GMT -6
I like the list of what is apparently Gary Gygax's houserules for 3lbb, which brings the power curve closer to B/X. The procedures described therein err on the side of beefing up level 1 pcs ever so slightly from the Men & Magic procedures, but not too much. I enjoy that under this variant it's possible for a Cleric with a 15 Wisdom to begin the game with a spell slot, and that Fighters get slight combat ad HP bonuses for a high STR, for instance. It's logical but it's not overdone. I will add that many of Gary's house rules here are things that were clarified in Holmes and B/X and were things I always assumed to be the procedures, like Clerics not needing spellbooks. I suppose that's what happens when one approaches OD&D backwards, as I did, rather than discovering it first. I've retained some of my assumptions about the BECMI version I played the most as a kid and retroactively applied them to my OD&D game - although, I'm happy to report, not to its detriment. It works for me. |
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 15, 2020 14:04:21 GMT -6
Yes, I do, like delta does, keeping 18 still a +2 and 3 still a -2. All my HD and damage is d6. I think delta keeps GH variable hit dice. I vary classes by different HD to lvl ratios. It works well for us. Fight on! |
|
|
|
Post by delta on May 17, 2020 0:39:10 GMT -6
What has been your experience with +2 damage fighters and the d6 HD standart for monsters? Does it work just ok? Yeah, it works fine, I'm not sure any of my players notice the difference(s). On the other hand, I don't give attacks-per-level that I understand many (most?) people do with OD&D through 1E AD&D -- which seems like a fine detail but I realize may be among the most significant differences from the classic game. - To tetramorph's point, right, I do use the Greyhawk hit dice by class. To me it's nifty and easy to remember (prefer that to table lookups.) - To waysoftheearth's point, also true; for me there's a category difference in that d6 +/-2 rolls occur for "raw ability unskilled" stuff, usually outside combat, like searching, climbing, swimming, things which are not called out as class-specific; whereas d20 + level +/-2 occur for mostly "class skilled" stuff, often in-combat mode, like attacks, saves, picking pockets, and also learning spells. So the d20 rolls always get class level added in and that significantly outweighs the ability bonuses in that mode. I do d6 +/-2 rolls in places where a lot of other people do d20 <= ability score rolls, to kind of emphasize this modal difference, and also to be honest about my own ability to estimate chances for novel ad-hoc checks. At one point in the past I used to do d20 + full ability score >= 20 for stuff like that, and my work partner Paul still prefers it that way today. |
|
|
|
Post by tdenmark on May 17, 2020 11:09:44 GMT -6
Truth be told, MOST of us probably houserule our OD&D to some extent. I doubt very much there's anyone who plays it strictly by the book. I'd GUESS that B/X stat bonuses are probably one of the more common adoptions, since they streamline the whole process. Then again, I'm also sure there will be a litany of folks replying here going, "NOT ME!!! NEVER!!!" To play OD&D is to house rule. |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 11:43:16 GMT -6
To play OD&D is to house rule. I'm in complete agreement with this statement! As I see it, that's the fun of the game. |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 11:45:27 GMT -6
Truth be told, MOST of us probably houserule our OD&D to some extent. I would be skeptical of anyone telling me they played OD&D, particularly the TLBB, "as is" with no house-ruling. I've been playing this game since it was a game and I've never seen campaign without some homebrew mixed in. |
|
|
|
Post by tetramorph on May 17, 2020 11:56:44 GMT -6
- To tetramorph 's point, right, I do use the Greyhawk hit dice by class. To me it's nifty and easy to remember (prefer that to table lookups.) Right, that is the goal: no tables! But, just to note, I also do not need any table look ups using Lvl:HD ratio as the big class distinguisher. Two roads, same destination! But would you remind me, how do you differentiate their relative combat power per T20? If they all have the same Lvl:HD ratio, where HP is only varied by #s of sides, how do you distinguish classes when they attack using T20? Sorry, I know I am supposed to know this, I've just been using my ratios method for so long that I have forgotten. |
|
|
|
Post by tdenmark on May 17, 2020 12:14:40 GMT -6
To play OD&D is to house rule. I'm in complete agreement with this statement! As I see it, that's the fun of the game. You could extend that to all editions of D&D (and most RPG's, right?). A disturbing attitude I see in 5e discussions is this strict adherence to the letter of the rules. I've participated in discussions on some 5e forums and they are freaking rules nazis. Try to introduce creative interpretations or rules bending and they unleash on you. |
|
|
|
Post by retrorob on May 17, 2020 12:30:03 GMT -6
Truth be told, MOST of us probably houserule our OD&D to some extent. I doubt very much there's anyone who plays it strictly by the book. I'd GUESS that B/X stat bonuses are probably one of the more common adoptions, since they streamline the whole process. Then again, I'm also sure there will be a litany of folks replying here going, "NOT ME!!! NEVER!!!" To play OD&D is to house rule. Well, I played OD&D by-the-book for some time, according to Philotomy's "play it as it is". Sooner or later a lot of issues arises and you basically have to house-rule this game. As for the B/X bonuses in OD&D? Never done that, I'm rather reluctant to tinker with the abilities. I agree though that OD&D-bonuses was probably designed for 2d6 mechanics. |
|
|
|
Post by sixdemonbag on May 17, 2020 12:38:51 GMT -6
You could extend that to all editions of D&D (and most RPG's, right?). The rules for a TTRPG are just a way to introduce some degree of randomness into a shared, imaginary headspace amongst players. Almost by definition would it be impossible to codify a "perfect" set of rules for such a circumstance, when those circumstances are ever-changing, ever-evolving and ultimately unpredictable. Video games, Card games, board games, etc. all have a finite set of possibilities that can be wholly governed by a certain ruleset. RPGs and some aspects of sports essentially require some degree of common sense and flexibility when making rulings. They only variable factor is the amount and complexity of the randomness desired, subjectively. |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 12:43:20 GMT -6
I've participated in discussions on some 5e forums and they are freaking rules nazis. Try to introduce creative interpretations or rules bending and they unleash on you. I've often pondered the apparent correlation between number of rules and an increasing hardcore attitude about doing things BtB. I know there are people who like strict adherence to written rules and to each their own, it just isn't how I like to do things. A session filled with managing a spreadsheet and strict, complex PC builds just isn't my idea of a fun evening. |
|
|
|
Post by sixdemonbag on May 17, 2020 12:45:26 GMT -6
I agree though that OD&D-bonuses was probably designed for 2d6 mechanics. OD&D as a vestigial 2d6-based game is starting to make more and more sense to me, whether or not that was actually ever the case, historically. You can play OD&D with just a pair of dice and everything just clicks for some reason. As an example, for the various "tiers" of the attack and save matrices, just add a simple +1 to 2d6 throws. Damage and HD are already d6-based, while reaction, morale, turn undead, etc. are obviously natively 2d6-based. |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 12:54:54 GMT -6
Well, I played OD&D by-the-book for some time, according to Philotomy's "play it as it is". Sooner or later a lot of issues arises and you basically have to house-rule this game. Cool! My hat is off, sir. If I may? How did you handle initiative, missile ranges, the elf class? Within the presented rules matrix, I mean. Off the top of my head, these are the things I house-ruled in 1975 because I don't recall any rules-based presentation on same. |
|
|
|
Post by retrorob on May 17, 2020 13:15:24 GMT -6
1) no elves. nobody wanted to play one  2) missile ranges are clearly stated in vol. I: +2/+1/0 (short/medium/long) 3) melee - I assumed there is no initiative (simultaneous fight). missile (spell) vs missile (spell) - according to Dexterity (as pointed out in vol. I). surprise gives a free attack - just as in vol. III. |
|
|
|
Post by tdenmark on May 17, 2020 13:43:10 GMT -6
Well, I played OD&D by-the-book for some time, according to Philotomy's "play it as it is". Sooner or later a lot of issues arises and you basically have to house-rule this game. Cool! My hat is off, sir. If I may? How did you handle initiative, missile ranges, the elf class? Within the presented rules matrix, I mean. Off the top of my head, these are the things I house-ruled in 1975 because I don't recall any rules-based presentation on same. heh, that wasn't me. retrorob said that. I'd already been playing D&D for many years before I picked up an original edition. By then I was already accustomed to house ruling. But, it would be a fun challenge to try really hard to play strictly by the rules as written just to see how it would go. Anyone interested? |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 15:32:30 GMT -6
heh, that wasn't me. retrorob said that. I'd already been playing D&D for many years before I picked up an original edition. By then I was already accustomed to house ruling. But, it would be a fun challenge to try really hard to play strictly by the rules as written just to see how it would go. Anyone interested? Sorry about that ... I actually knew this but I messed up the quote tags and when I fixed it I deleted the wrong part. At any rate? I bought my first copy of the game in 1975, a short while after they became available. Here's how I solved those particular problems BitD. Elves: players maintained two character sheets and played either as an FM or MU, only changing in town or well fortified camp. XP went to whatever class they were playing when they earned them, and dice were rolled as BtB (I found out years later in a conversation with EGG he did something similar but made elf players halve the results before adding them to their total). Saves, "to hit," abilities, armor, etc. were just as in the books per the class they were active in at that time. Initiative: roll d6, high score went first. This was a relic of my wargaming roots though my experience with those was limited because I was really awful (it turns out) with strategy & tactics. Missile Ranges: I looked at how far a longbow could shoot in an encyclopedia and applied it to all missile weapons. I didn't realize the profound difference in missile fire ranges at the time, but looking back on it I must say I don't think it impacted play at all because most of our games were in the dungeon. This made missile fire fairly short range, practically speaking. Locks: what did we do in lieu of a thief class? What would you do if you came across a lock you really wanted to get through in real life? We bashed the [unprintable] out of them, that's what. If there is anything else you'd like to know? Feel free to ask, if I can remember I'll be happy to share my experience. |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 15:34:21 GMT -6
missile ranges are clearly stated in vol. I: +2/+1/0 (short/medium/long) Well, yes; the rules do so state. What I was asking, and sorry for wording it poorly, but how far did your arrows GO when you fired them? |
|
|
|
Post by asaki on May 17, 2020 15:58:20 GMT -6
Yes, but I get the feeling that a lot of his house rules were to speed up play for convention games (like automatic identify). |
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 16:11:53 GMT -6
Yes, but I get the feeling that a lot of his house rules were to speed up play for convention games (like automatic identify). There is some truth to that. They were also used because he ran a lot of pickup games at his house when fans dropped in. He always had time for gamers. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 18:28:32 GMT -6
Yeah. I've heard the claim before that "Gary's Rules" maybe weren't intended for a single group of long-term players but maybe for convention games and pickup games. He wasn't as big on D&D for a while there towards the end. I've glanced through his archived threads at Dragonsfoot and while he did often answer questions about D&D, he'd just as often steer people towards talking about Lejendary Adventure. Makes sense that he'd be the most excited about talking about the rules set he had worked on so hard and was sharing with the world, and which he actually owned the rights to until his death. Still, I'll stand by my assumption that these houserules would function with a long term campaign until I see evidence to the contrary. My suspicion is that most of this wouldn't end up affecting the game much beyond level 3 or so.
|
|
|
|
Post by Piper on May 17, 2020 18:35:33 GMT -6
Still, I'll stand by my assumption that these houserules would function with a long term campaign until I see evidence to the contrary. My suspicion is that most of this wouldn't end up affecting the game much beyond level 3 or so. No assumptions needed, they work just fine! OD&D is a remarkably resilient matrix, it would take much more than this to break them; if that is even possible. Besides all that? Play your game your way and never, ever let anyone tell you you’re doing it wrong. I was merely addressing how the rules came about. |
|
|
|
Post by delta on May 17, 2020 22:29:01 GMT -6
But would you remind me, how do you differentiate their relative combat power per T20? If they all have the same Lvl:HD ratio, where HP is only varied by #s of sides, how do you distinguish classes when they attack using T20? Thanks for asking. I give a base attack bonus of 1 point per fighter/monster level, 2/3 per thief (or cleric) level, 1/2 per wizard level. (Or of you prefer: 2/2, 2/3, 2/4.) That's sort of between the progression seen in the OD&D d20-based tables and 1E. |
|
