Why no coppers in the dungeon?

[Finarvyn]

I've been looking at the treasure chart on p.7 of The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures booklet because I want to put something like it on my DM screen. I like the fact that silver is always present, gold 50% of the time, gems there by percentage, jewelry there by percentage, magic there by percentage. What puzzles me is that there is no mention of copper pieces in the treasure.

Page 39 of Monsters & Treasure clearly establishes an exchange rate and lists gold, silver, and copper. (With electrum and platinum listed as optional.) I can see why there would be no (optional) columns for electrum and platinum, but why no column for copper? Is the assumption that CP have so little value that everyone just throws them away?

Just curious if I missed something, or how folks might have added to the U&WA p.7 chart.

-----------------------------------------------

As another thing altogether, I'm thinking of going to a "copper standard" in my game where all of the Equipment costs in M&M are actually in CP. With this in mind, I will probably drop the #'s for how many silver and gold pieces are found in each column of the table. I'm thinking that if a CP is the base coin (essentially, I think of it as a dollar) then a SP would be more like $10 and a GP more like $100.

Now, technically by the 3LBB that would be incorrect. M&T p.39 has 5 CP to the SP, 10 SP to the GP. So, I guess if 1 CP = $1, then a SP = $5 and a GP = $50.

[asaki]

I know my players always heave a giant sigh when they find a chest full of CP =)

[Finarvyn]

Mine, too, but I assume it's because the GP is the "standard" and a CP is only 1/50 of a GP so it has nearly zero value. That's why I'm hoping to make the CP the standard, so finding a single GP is something neat. Of course, take that GP into the local pub and hope the barista will make change for it...

[azera]

Yeah, I think your guess that nobody wants worthless CP is probably the answer.

About your other point, I try to use a single column for "coin"-value treasures, with a second column noting a chance for a multiplier in place of different coin types. What I've got at hand deviates from book values (for any of my RPG books ), but here's a quick go at converting the Vol 3 table (based on GP standard):

Dungeon Level	Base Coins: d6 * ...	50% to multiply by...
1	10	2
2-3	20	6
4-5	100	3
6-7	200	3.5
8-9	500	3
10-12	500	5
13+	1000	6

YMMV, but I like this approach for two main reasons:

1. It's easier to see how much XP that pile of coins is worth.

2. It's easier to replace coins with fancier treasure (including other coin-types) while keeping the same total treasure value.

[doublejig2]

Sure you could fatten up coppers by underlying them with tin 1/100, lead 1/1000, wood coins (who cares), etc. And these might need be more privileged so that beads become tender.

[talysman]

I'm wondering if a "shifting standard" might help and be easy enough to handle? Assume all wood/cloth/leather item prices are in copper, part/all metal item prices are in silver, and armor kicks the price up one tier (leather armor price in silver, metal armor price in gold.) That makes copper somewhat useful, but only just enough that players won't automatically dismiss it.

As for stocking treasure, I think one or two coin types in any given treasure stash is about right. Perhaps copper should be limited to the 1st and 2nd dungeon levels, where the monsters might be raiding villages? Or each dungeon level would have a base treasure type with a 50% chance of a second coin type (or maybe a 1 in 3 chance of copper, 1 in 3 chance of gold for second coin type?)

[hamurai]

My players only collect CP when out of bullets or when they have some sort of distraction in mind. I guess that's why no one bothers with copper in the dungeon. You can just get a regular job and get more cash.

[Red Baron]

I really like a 1gp = 6sp = 36cp silver standard. I'm not sure where I picked up that idea from, I think it was waysoftheearth.

[asaki]

I've played around with an idea, a few times, that certain coins are not always what they seem. Kind of like how BECMI has different coinage for different regions, so specific currency might be worth more in foreign lands, or more valuable because it's so ancient, or maybe certain lands may not accept your currency without getting it exchanged first.

My players were not very amused when they brought gold from another planet to Karameikos, and shopkeepers would always look it over suspiciously, bite it, shrug and pocket it.

[delta]

You may not care, but my best assessment is that the basic equipment and castle costs in D&D are in units that historically match about a half-shilling, that is, in the ballpark of a large silver groat coin (which is 1/3 of a shilling). So while I can see the game-design reason for a copper standard, eyeing the real-world economy is part of why I personally settled on a silver standard (and it gives enough of a game-design fix to satisfy me).

[Finarvyn]

Mar 28, 2020 23:20:27 GMT -6 delta said:

You may not care, but my best assessment is that the basic equipment and castle costs in D&D are in units that historically match about a half-shilling, that is, in the ballpark of a large silver groat coin (which is 1/3 of a shilling). So while I can see the game-design reason for a copper standard, eyeing the real-world economy is part of why I personally settled on a silver standard (and it gives enough of a game-design fix to satisfy me).

I do care, and this is interesting to me. Can you elaborate further on how you do it, or have you done a blog entry that I can look at?

The allure of the copper standard (to me) was in part the idea that a GP could be like a $100 bill -- the local tavern (McDonalds) will take it but not change it so you end up buying a basic meal and it costs you $100 if all you have are GP. Certainly, having a GP more like $10 makes it more useful.

[geoffrey]

A copper standard is indeed cool. I like this one that uses Gary's coinage system from his Gord novels:

250 iron drabs = 1 copper common
50 brass bits = 1 copper common
5 bronze zees = 1 copper common
4 copper commons = 1 silver noble
20 copper commons = 1 electrum lucky
200 copper commons = 1 gold orb
220 copper commons = 1 platinum plate

I think of the various coins basically as such:

iron drab = nickel
brass bit = 50-cent piece
bronze zee = $5 bill
copper common = $20 bill
silver noble = $100 bill
electrum lucky = $500
gold orb = $5,000
platinum plate = $5,500

Thus, children might carry around a few iron drabs.
Beggars might have some brass bits.
A poor man might have some bronze zees.
A common man would have copper commons (appropriately enough).
The nobility carries silver nobles (again, appropriately) and electrum luckies.
The coffers of kings contain gold orbs and platinum plates.

[delta]

Mar 29, 2020 5:42:12 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Mar 28, 2020 23:20:27 GMT -6 delta said:

You may not care, but my best assessment is that the basic equipment and castle costs in D&D are in units that historically match about a half-shilling, that is, in the ballpark of a large silver groat coin (which is 1/3 of a shilling). So while I can see the game-design reason for a copper standard, eyeing the real-world economy is part of why I personally settled on a silver standard (and it gives enough of a game-design fix to satisfy me).

I do care, and this is interesting to me. Can you elaborate further on how you do it, or have you done a blog entry that I can look at?

Sure, the first link in that post above is what you're looking for. Here it is again. :-)

[cometaryorbit]

Yeah I think copper pieces are something you find in individual goblins' or down-on-their-luck brigands' belt pouches, not in a real "dungeon treasure".

The comment that "silver is always in the treasure" does go interestingly with the silver standard concept...

[Desparil]

It's also interesting to note that Gygax himself might have felt conflicted over the role of copper pieces. Within a few years, AD&D was released and many common items of equipment and provisions had costs in copper and silver, instead of the all-gold costs in Men & Magic. It's possible he set the increased AD&D cost of plate armor based on number of English pence, as well:

In the PHB, he sets plate mail as 400 GP. Despite potential quibbles over terminology, the plates-over-chain type of armor that he describes it as made me think about how he might have arrived at that price point. I had a tough time finding historical prices of the chainmail component, but let's assume he had a historical basis for setting that at 75 GP. Then for the plate component, I found two or three examples of a cuirass and pauldrons being sold as a set for 26s or 26s 8d. The latter was probably considered a nice, even-number price because it's two marks of silver. If we convert that to pence, we end up with 320 pence; 320 plus 75, rounded up to 400, makes me wonder...

Similarly, one of the most well-known examples of what he would call field plate armor in Unearthed Arcana, would be a Milanese suit known to have been purchased by Sir John Cressy in 1441 for £8 6s 8d - exactly 2000 pence. What's the price of field plate? 2000 GP.

His later Mythus/Dangerous Journeys game would go on to use bronze coins as the standard "BUC" - but according to this old post, the suggested conversion from Mythus to D&D was 1 CP = 1 Bronze, making the D&D copper piece the basic coin. The post also mentions that one D&D copper piece convert to 1 Lejendary Adventure dollar.

So overall, it really seems like Gary wanted the coppers to matter as time went on, but until he was no longer working on D&D he was stuck with his original "treasure chests full of gold" conceit from the original brown booklets.

[thegreyelf]

I think there's an even more basic and visceral reason why coppers don't appear in treasure. It's because in their minds, when people think of copper coins, they think of pennies. I'm not saying that's what coppers are supposed to represent in D&D, but that's the image most people have in their minds for copper coin: pennies. When they think of silver, at least in the U.S., they tend to think of a valuable precious metal. When they think of gold, people tend to think of GOLD. HOLY CRAP, GOLD.

So I really think that's what it comes down to: the basic association that people have in their minds for these metals. I think the vast majority of gamers didn't spend a lot of time analyzing how the economy was supposed to work. That's just my gut feeling, though.

[aldarron]

I'd quibble with the op. The table on U&WA is best understood as referring to unguarded treasures (treasures in rooms with no monster present (1/6 chance in and empty rooms .) Treasures in monster lairs use the treasure type tables on p 22 or M&T.

So there is plenty of opportunity for copper pieces in a dungeon.

P.S. I know there are folks out there who want to claim that a "lair" is somehow only some kind of unusual place hanging out in a wilderness. Nonsense. There is no period evidence of any such specialized use of the term, and plenty to the contrary. More to the point, we have three early 70's dungeons (2 by Arneson, 1 by Svenson) stocked with the treasure type tables; we have the random dungeon generator in SR that appears to refer to these tables and we have Tsojconth by Gygax that has a range of treasures pretty closely aligned with the treasure type tables.

[Zenopus]

Gygax used copper pieces more as a "trick" or complication in the Castle Greyhawk dungeon. He relates the tale in Dragon #302 in an installment of his column "All I Need to Know I Learned from D&D" called "Penny for Your Thoughts".

To summarize, Ernie & Elise's characters defeated a "den of kobolds" on the first level of the dungeon (possibly what would later become the Old Guard Kobolds), discovering a "great iron chest" filled with "thousands of copper coins", too heavy for the two characters to lift. They took as much as they could carry out of the dungeon and tried to return for the rest, but by then the chest has been taken. It became a "floating treasure chest" that was carried off by one dungeon dweller after another.

[Deleted]

Apr 2, 2020 12:28:51 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Gygax used copper pieces more as a "trick" or complication in the Castle Greyhawk dungeon. He relates the tale in Dragon #302 in an installment of his column "All I Need to Know I Learned from D&D" called "Penny for Your Thoughts".

To summarize, Ernie & Elise's characters defeated a "den of kobolds" on the first level of the dungeon (possibly what would later become the Old Guard Kobolds), discovering a "great iron chest" filled with "thousands of copper coins", too heavy for the two characters to lift. They took as much as they could carry out of the dungeon and tried to return for the rest, but by then the chest has been taken. It became a "floating treasure chest" that was carried off by one dungeon dweller after another.

I did not know that! Weirdly, that almost exactly echoes one of my first experiences with CP as well. 

Other than re-balancing the game to make CP have a viable use as tender, they really serve no purpose other than disappointment. 

[gemini476]

Apr 2, 2020 12:28:51 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Gygax used copper pieces more as a "trick" or complication in the Castle Greyhawk dungeon. He relates the tale in Dragon #302 in an installment of his column "All I Need to Know I Learned from D&D" called "Penny for Your Thoughts".

To summarize, Ernie & Elise's characters defeated a "den of kobolds" on the first level of the dungeon (possibly what would later become the Old Guard Kobolds), discovering a "great iron chest" filled with "thousands of copper coins", too heavy for the two characters to lift. They took as much as they could carry out of the dungeon and tried to return for the rest, but by then the chest has been taken. It became a "floating treasure chest" that was carried off by one dungeon dweller after another.

"Thousands of copper coins" being, of course, a couple hundred GP. Each person can carry at most 3,000cn, which in this case is 60gp - in the wilderness you at least could feasibly have a team of draft horses capable of carrying 4,500cn/90gp each!

Copper coins are hardly ever worth the effort of picking up, except as space-filler and cheap monster distraction bags.

[doublejig2]

if there are robbers in the dungeon, there will surely be coppers

[Zenopus]

^^^ A Gygax-worthy pun.

* * * * *

"Thousands of copper coins" being, of course, a couple hundred GP. Each person can carry at most 3,000cn, which in this case is 60gp - in the wilderness you at least could feasibly have a team of draft horses capable of carrying 4,500cn/90gp each!
Copper coins are hardly ever worth the effort of picking up, except as space-filler and cheap monster distraction bags.

Good point. Though the value of copper may have been different in this very early adventure. We don't really know what conversion was being used, how much equipment cost, or the XP requirements for 2nd level. The Guidon Draft only requires 500 XP for 2nd level in Cleric: odd74.proboards.com/post/205623

Even in OD&D-as-published, 60 gp may be enough for your poor fighter on his 1st adventure in Chain to finally afford Plate Mail. I think most players at that point would grab the copper until they found something better.

*****

Copper would work even better in a really hardscrabble, funnel-esque game where all you start with is one improvised weapon and perhaps a random piece of equipment.

*****

A few more examples of Gygax using CP as part of a trick/trap:

The Example of Play in Vol 3 has a chest filled with 2000 CP, hiding a more valuable treasure.

In the Zenopus Sample Dungeon, Room A, there is also a trapped chest with 2000 CP. While Holmes wrote this, he had the coins as GP, but Gygax downgraded it (as he did to treasures throughout the Sample Dungeon).

The brigands in the Moathouse in T1 also have 2000 CP in a chest, not trapped, but buried and also having others more valuable items within.

B2 has "gold coins" that are actually lead painted gold, having a real value of 1 copper piece each.

*****

Gygax suggests another use for CP in the DMG:

Pursuers of low intelligence will have an additional 10% per 10 items (regardless of actual value) dropped, i.e. 20 copper pieces have a 20% additional probability of causing a distraction.

*****

Another quote from the DMG:

It is simply more heroic for players to have their characters swaggering around with pouches full of gems and tossing out gold pieces than it is for them to have coppers.

[asaki]

Here's some Gary quotes from Castle Zagyg:

1 GOLD PIECE = 2 ELECTRUM PIECES = 50 SILVER PIECES = 500 COPPER PIECES

Also, 1 PLATINUM PIECE is worth 1.5 times (150%) that of gold. This exchange is a deviation from the system originally used in play, where 1 gold coin was worth 10 times that of 1 silver coin. If you choose to utilize the original exchange, we suggest you increase the amount of gold discovered in the course of adventuring to as much as x5. You will also need to assign higher gp values to special items such as jewelry, gems, magic items, and so on.

...

Experience Point Awards for Monetary Gain: As a gold piece is worth a $500* equivalent in this setting, there are far fewer gold pieces discovered in the course of adventuring. Rather than equating 1 gp to 1 XP, the CK is urged to use a ratio in which 1 gp = 5 XP So, XP awards for money found in the course of adventure are: ⦁ 100 cp = 1 XP ⦁ 10 sp = 1 XP ⦁ 2 ep = 5 XPs ⦁ 1 gp = 5 XPs ⦁ 2 pp = 15 XPs

...

...do note that the authors of this work consider the above monetary exchange system (1 gp = 50 sp = 500 cp) to be a vast improvement to previous systems.

* For more on employing of the $ system referenced above, refer to the Gygaxian Fantasy World series of hardbacks as published by Troll Lord Games.

Underlines are my emphasis. So he's claiming to go with the OD&D standard in the original games of Castle Greyhawk, which he has changed to be much more valuable, and also, another mention of his "1 copper = $1" exchange rate.

[tdenmark]

Coppers aren't fun.

I don't see the point in using anything other than gold. Who really wants to count up all that change and calculate conversion rates when a Wererat Lord has taken up residence in the city sewers and needs to be dealt with immediately?! The occasional Platinum piece is cool if you want the special reward once in a while.

Unless you're trying to run a realistic medieval simulator then by all means go ahead and have all the coins and every nation have its own currency with different exchange rates and make as complicated a system as suits your fancy.

[asaki]

Apr 27, 2020 23:33:58 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Who really wants to count up all that change and calculate conversion rates when a Wererat Lord has taken up residence in the city sewers and needs to be dealt with immediately?!

Yeah, I think it's more important when you're using encumbrance rules, then you have to decide what to keep and what to leave. Take those rules away, and the players become walking bank accounts (like the 5E party I play with!)

[tdenmark]

Apr 28, 2020 15:21:27 GMT -6 asaki said:

Yeah, I think it's more important when you're using encumbrance rules, then you have to decide what to keep and what to leave. Take those rules away, and the players become walking bank accounts (like the 5E party I play with!)

Oh, you mean the encumbrance rules that are never, ever fun to use? Except in Torchbearer, that game system is clever.

As far as walking bank accounts the DM is certainly responsible for letting that happen when they can just say it's too much to carry. There are just other aspects of playing the game I'd rather focus on.

Then again every game group is different, I'm sure there are some that need encumbrance rules to maintain the suspension of disbelief.

[countingwizard]

Mar 25, 2020 10:12:53 GMT -6 talysman said:

I'm wondering if a "shifting standard" might help and be easy enough to handle? Assume all wood/cloth/leather item prices are in copper, part/all metal item prices are in silver, and armor kicks the price up one tier (leather armor price in silver, metal armor price in gold.) That makes copper somewhat useful, but only just enough that players won't automatically dismiss it.

As for stocking treasure, I think one or two coin types in any given treasure stash is about right. Perhaps copper should be limited to the 1st and 2nd dungeon levels, where the monsters might be raiding villages? Or each dungeon level would have a base treasure type with a 50% chance of a second coin type (or maybe a 1 in 3 chance of copper, 1 in 3 chance of gold for second coin type?)

The only reason I use and enjoy gold as the standard, is because as an individual character with at most 12 hirelings they can take into the dungeon, the numbers are reasonable and easy to track. The only time I would consider switching scales is for stronghold level play where a player needs to pay for outfitting and feeding armies.

As a player I hate having to make change and record decimals or lesser coinage.

[talysman]

Apr 30, 2020 10:56:54 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Mar 25, 2020 10:12:53 GMT -6 talysman said:

I'm wondering if a "shifting standard" might help and be easy enough to handle? Assume all wood/cloth/leather item prices are in copper, part/all metal item prices are in silver, and armor kicks the price up one tier (leather armor price in silver, metal armor price in gold.) That makes copper somewhat useful, but only just enough that players won't automatically dismiss it.

As for stocking treasure, I think one or two coin types in any given treasure stash is about right. Perhaps copper should be limited to the 1st and 2nd dungeon levels, where the monsters might be raiding villages? Or each dungeon level would have a base treasure type with a 50% chance of a second coin type (or maybe a 1 in 3 chance of copper, 1 in 3 chance of gold for second coin type?)

The only reason I use and enjoy gold as the standard, is because as an individual character with at most 12 hirelings they can take into the dungeon, the numbers are reasonable and easy to track. The only time I would consider switching scales is for stronghold level play where a player needs to pay for outfitting and feeding armies.

This raises a different question: are the listed prices the normal prices, or an "adventurer mark-up"?

I've toyed with the idea of lowering prices for characters who become established as part of the community, rather than just rootless insane drifters passing through town. One simple way to accommodate this would be to assume silver standard (gold for armor and weapons) and drop down a tier once the characters have paid the monthly support tithe for a while.

countingwizard said:

As a player I hate having to make change and record decimals or lesser coinage.

Then don't use decimals. Record treasure as "bag of silver worth X gp" or whatever. A large sack holds 300 coins, small sack 50 coins, according to M&M. Since a gold piece is worth 50 copper pieces, according to M&T, you can treat the "by the book" price list as being either individual gold coins or small bags of copper, no need for math. The real trick would be in how you record treasure in a dungeon key. It would now look like:

1. 100 gold,
2. two large sacks of silver worth 60 gold total
3. 10 small sacks of copper

All the treasure in the above list is basically in gp terms (100 + 60 + 10 = 170 gp.)

[cometaryorbit]

Apr 30, 2020 15:56:00 GMT -6 talysman said:

This raises a different question: are the listed prices the normal prices, or an "adventurer mark-up"?

It's got to be adventurer mark-up for the things that normal people use - even with a silver standard.

Metal armor and 'military' weapons (not clubs, etc.) are probably genuinely that expensive, even in gold standard terms.

[gemini476]

While Gygax ultimately went for it being "gold rush pricing" in AD&D onwards, it's pretty clear that that's just him justifying the prices while keeping them relatively similar to what OD&D had for compatibility reasons. (For wearable equipment, at least. Garlic buds went from 5GP to 5CP.)

I suspect that the actual reason for those prices, though, is because at some point during development Gold Pieces might have been the only currency. Note that when Men & Magic talks about money, it's almost always Gold Pieces - "Selection of items is strictly up to the players, and Gold Pieces are taken away accordingly", " Let us assume he gains 7,000 Gold Pieces by defeating a troll", "Load in Gold Pieces"... the only place that silver and copper pieces are acknowledge is when the encumbrance table has an entry for "Coin(Copper, Silver, or Gold)". Note also that the prices are not listed as being in gold pieces, but just in generic "Cost" with the text clarifying that you pay in gold pieces!

Gold makes perfect sense for your default currency in a pulpy fantasy game, of course: gold represents wealth, and it's no coincidence that Smaug was on a golden hoard. It's exciting and immediately lets the players know that they've, well, struck gold. While it's unrealistic for the supposed time period, a fair amount of the fantasy literature inspiring D&D was also written while the gold standard was a very real thing in western economies (only being abandoned after WW1 and the recessions that followed) so it's no wonder that authors would write what they know.

Personally I just acknowledge that the whole economy makes no sense whatsoever and just leave it at that. Yeah, sure, leather armor is 15GP while "plate mail" is 50GP, let's just assume that works somehow and get on with our game.