What do you do when OS doesn't work?

[Finarvyn]

Old School gaming in one form or another is pretty much the focus here, but on occasion I have a certain frustration that my OS gaming doesn't allow for me to do particular things as a GM without cheating.

For example, after reading Moorcock's Corum stories I thought it would be cool to give a player magic items similar to the eye and hand that Corum had in the literature. The problem is that OD&D doesn't have hit location rules to allow for a severed limb or lost eye, so (unless I go out of my way to institute such rules just for this occasion) I'm pretty much stuck.

Or how about a case where I want the characters to witness something such as a kidnapping in order to start off an adventure, but by the rulebook they would gain the ability to act and perhaps thwart the kidnapping before the plot can get going. It always seemed awkward to say "okay, so the villain does these three things and then escapes before you get a turn. What do you do?"

Both of these cases involve instances of role play through DM fiat that aren't really addressed in OD&D and similar era games. (As opposed to running Amber Diceless, for example, where the DM can quickly hand-wave through something.) It's tricky because I'd like to encourage creativity in my role play, both as a player and as a DM, but the rules as written don't always allow such.

What are your thoughts on this stuff?

[tetramorph]

Finarvyn, this may come down to player-referee trust.

If your group and you trust each other, you might just say, "Hey, I have an idea. I want to start with something that one or more of you witness but that, for whatever reason, you were unable to act upon in the moment. Are you okay with me taking that volition away, just for the sake of setting up a good campaign hook?" I know that I, as a player, would say "yes, of course," without hesitation. I would trust you were setting up something fantastic for us.

That said, if folks don't like it, or you know in advance they would veto, you could always have someone run into the tavern and report as the witness so that the adventurers are incited to action.

In terms of the hit location rules: Finarvyn, this is 0e, man! Couldn't you just house rule it? Again, you could just say to your group, "hey, guys, I got this great idea from reading [fill in the blank with literature they already want to game because they are playing 0e] and I would really like to add a hit location rule so that we can game it. Are you cool with that?" Or don't even ask, just set it up and unroll it and explain it later if they need to know or ask.

I think the flexibility of 0e allows for you to handle situations such as these.

Fight on!

[Deleted]

This thread, already awesome, guys! Go on, please!

[oldkat]

You do not need combat in order to lose a limb, an eye, an ear...

A character might need to reach through a small hole in order to move a lever to open a door, in the process s/he triggers the trap that severs the hand, while a bolt shoots out and into said character's eye.

Once you say 'this isn't normally found in the game but I'd like it to be' you've already decided that it can be. Figuring out how to implement such is but one of the endless tasks of being the game referee.

Good luck.

[scottenkainen]

Hit locations may be a poor example, since all you need to do is incorporate the Blackmoor supplement to get hit locations.

It's not OD&D, but in H&H, the save vs. plot mechanic is there for situations like when you want to prevent the players from acting during a story scene. If they make their save, yes, they can mess up your scene, but D&D players are trained to accept a penalty with a failed save and will be more likely to sit quietly through it.

[hamurai]

Wouldn't it be even more interesting if you could make the character sacrifice their eye and/or hand?
I once ran such an adventure and gave my characters the chance to do exactly that: Sacrifice an eye in the well of wisdom, and if the eye has seen legend and if it has seen true, then the gods may grant you wisdom beyond that of mortal eyesight.
I told them they had to tell me the most impressive story their eye has ever seen and by that the gods would judge them worthy. One of my players agreed and till next session he wrote an awesome story about one of the adventures I had played with them. I deemed him worthy and he got Argos' Eye of True Sight which allowed him to "spend" 1 HP to gain the ability to see through illusions and invisibility for some rounds.

And for the kidnapping: The kidnapper could use blinding bombs, illusion spell scrolls or similar things, or just the good old minions who keep the characters busy long enough for the kidnapper to escape.

[Todd]

Re. Corum, wasn’t that the inspiration for the hand and eye of Vecna?

You make the rending of the limbs something that happens when the villain is killed so that the final blows dislodge the eye and separate the hand.

[robertsconley]

Dec 17, 2017 11:37:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

For example, after reading Moorcock's Corum stories I thought it would be cool to give a player magic items similar to the eye and hand that Corum had in the literature. The problem is that OD&D doesn't have hit location rules to allow for a severed limb or lost eye, so (unless I go out of my way to institute such rules just for this occasion) I'm pretty much stuck.

Character makes a to-hit roll if the characters hits the target makes a saving throw or the target's limb is severed or his eye is lot. Tailor minuses and bonuses to reflect the power of the artifacts. OD&D has the to avoid something bad happen to the victim. The assumption here that you will lose the limb or eye to the artifacts if the character but the victim has a chance to avoid it. I haven't read the Corum stories so I can't say how difficult or easy it is for the victim to save. That is going to have to be your call.

Dec 17, 2017 11:37:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Or how about a case where I want the characters to witness something such as a kidnapping in order to start off an adventure, but by the rulebook they would gain the ability to act and perhaps thwart the kidnapping before the plot can get going. It always seemed awkward to say "okay, so the villain does these three things and then escapes before you get a turn. What do you do?"

Forget the rules on this one. Given what you know about the capabilities of the characters what would be a situation where they can witness an events but effectively be able to do something about it in time. If we are talking 9th level wizard with dimension door memorized that is one thing. If we are talking about a 1st level party that another.

Having said that I would not bother with a contrived setup. What I recommend is that you setup the "board" so to speak, let the NPCs do their things and just roll with whatever happens. To prepare ask yourself as series of what ifs. What if the kidnapping attempt is foiled, what if it is not, what if every NPCs dies. And so on. Similar to operation planning that the military does.

Dec 17, 2017 11:37:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Both of these cases involve instances of role play through DM fiat that aren't really addressed in OD&D and similar era games. (As opposed to running Amber Diceless, for example, where the DM can quickly hand-wave through something.) It's tricky because I'd like to encourage creativity in my role play, both as a player and as a DM, but the rules as written don't always allow such.

What are your thoughts on this stuff?

You are overthinking the Corum artifact.

One of the popular idea for this stuff is "Rulings not rules.". That useful but not sufficient. What is sufficient is Setting not rules. Why? Because if you a fan of rulings not rules there is still a basis for your ruling. Like your personal knowledge of fantasy fiction, myth and/or medieval history. For most of the RPGs out there the rules are just another person's ruling on what THEY know about fiction, myth, or history. And it is the setting that you create for your campaign that determines what in play from kaleidoscope of our imagination. For example if the setting is Barsoom the rules for jumping are going to be very different than if it 5th century Britain.

So when it comes to things like what can Corum's artifcat do, then you first describe in natural terms as you were witnessing it use first. Then first try using the building blocks of your chosen rule system, like OD&D. Then if that can't be stretched to cover it, then you will have to make up some new rules. With OD&D we have several things, to hit, attributes, saving throws, and bonuses/penalties.

As for the second you are trapping yourself into thinking there has to be a predetermined result.

Don't do that.

Set the "table" so to speak by defining NPCs, their motivations, and personalities. By fleshing out the locales they inhabit. When the campaign starts the plans of the NPcs will start to unfold but immediately be altered by what the PC do or don't. My view that the referee job is to figure the consequences of this. The referee creativity comes into play by figure out which of the plausible consequences is the most interesting for the players.

In your case, have the kidnapping attempt unfold, if the player stop it, it is stopped. If it succeeds it does. In either there will an impact on what the NPCs do next. And possibly an impact on the PCs as well. Then afterwards the PCs will continue to do their thing with further consequences down the line.


Old School Gaming is more than capable handling this kind of stuff.

[ritt]

No offence, but I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.

Nothing is more hardcore Old School than just making crap up on your own and coloring outside the lines of the rule book or the accepted ideas of what the game is "Supposed" to be.

[Deleted]

Dec 17, 2017 15:10:06 GMT -6 ritt said:

No offence, but I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.

Nothing is more hardcore Old School than just making crap up on your own and coloring outside the lines of the rule book or the accepted ideas of what the game is "Supposed" to be.

This. "Decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"

[derv]

First Edition Warhammer FRP was just re-released by Cubicle 7. You can purchase the pdf at Drive-Thru.

Old School? check. Hit locations? check. Plot driven? check. Skills and faults? check. Corruption affects? check. Weird and wild magic, creatures, and places? check.

Worth a look. Maybe it'll inspire, at the very least.

[talysman]

Two approaches come to mind:

(1) Just make the necessary changes (but don't overthink it.)

This is the kind of response I'd have to the hand/eye thing. If D&D doesn't have a hit location system, you could make one or borrow one or adapt one (aside from Blackmoor's system, there's the hints of one in the aerial combat section of U&WA...) but you might not even need to go that far. Just add the minimum necessary. In the case of hit location, I assume it doesn't matter unless someone specifically targets a location. Not much needs to be done, in that case.

(2) Rethink what the goals really are.

This is what comes to mind for the witnessing of the kidnapping. What you want is to give players a reason to go after a villain, and possibly some clues as to how to find the villain. The first thing that needs to be rethought is "is it absolutely necessary to keep the players from foiling the kidnapping?" It might not be. It might be best to let them foil the plot, if they can. If you wanted them to visit the villain's hideaway, you could always include clues to the location and hints of a reason to go there on the villain's person, so that if the villain is slain or captured, it's still possible to move forward with your plans. But if you really must have the villain escape and worry the players are too good, shift the timing a little. Have the players hear a scream or a tussle instead and gather the info from eyewitnesses instead of actually witnessing the event themselves. All you have to do is assume the villain is vigilant enough to avoid making the attempt while too many people -- especially adventurer types -- are close enough to stop the plot.

I'm not just trying to "solve" your example problems, here, but using them as my own examples. I truly believe that, if you think a problem can't be solved in an old-school manner, the best thing to do is reconsider the problem and ask "How much do I really need? And what am I really trying to accomplish?" Maybe the problem is just being phrased the wrong way...

[Finarvyn]

Dec 17, 2017 15:10:06 GMT -6 ritt said:

No offence, but I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.

Nothing is more hardcore Old School than just making crap up on your own and coloring outside the lines of the rule book or the accepted ideas of what the game is "Supposed" to be.

I get that, but what I don't want to do is make my players feel like they are in a "railroad" campaign. I make up stuff all the time, but that's a little different from the two examples I gave. Example one involves something being done to the player without his permission. Example two involves something happening around players without them getting an opportunity to perform an action. Both could be potentially annoying.

[chicagowiz]

I get that about hit locations - I come up with specific actions/activities that focus on the player. Or I roll a hit location die (I have one) or I roll d8 and see what I get (1 head, 2 l arm, 3 r arm, 4 front torso, 5 back torso, 6 groin, 7 l leg, 8 r leg).

When I've had to "foreshadow" to players - nothing like a god granting a vision... or someone having a touch of dream ESP... or hearing a scream when it's too late... or hearing a hired hand bragging about the job that was just completed...

[hamurai]

Dec 17, 2017 15:10:06 GMT -6 ritt said:

No offence, but I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.

Nothing is more hardcore Old School than just making crap up on your own and coloring outside the lines of the rule book or the accepted ideas of what the game is "Supposed" to be.

There's a difference between making stuff up within the agreed-upon rules system, and making stuff up breaking or changing the agreed-upon rules system and denying the players their action. The latter is what comes across as annoying for many players. If you can't count on how the game works (the rules), then why would you need the rules at all? If the ref changes the rules back and forth as he pleases, without asking the players (and against the players), the game would be not much fun.

[coffee]

I wouldn't worry about hit locations. Corum's hand and eye were not lost in combat. They were deliberately cut off once he was captured.

Now, capturing a player character might require a house rule. But that's another matter.

[robertsconley]

Dec 18, 2017 5:20:00 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Example one involves something being done to the player without his permission.

shirt happens. For example a bunch of PCs went up against a Clan of Tharian Horse Lords. The Horse Lords worship their ancestors and believe after they join a mystical senate called the Lars with each clan having their own Lars. The one of the PC Magic Users busted into the Clan's shrine and the mystic (a cleric of the Lars) called upon the Lars to defend them. The PC Magic Users mocked the mystic and the spirits of the Lars that appeared during the encounter and as a consequence the spirits reached into the character and pulled out his ability to cast magic. No Save due to the fact it was divine power in a sanctum dedicated to it.

Again shirt happens. Ultimately the PC in question rose to the occasion and in a epic quest regained his ability to cast magic and more. However I had players that would have whined and moaned about this happening to them. Despite all the information I gave previous about how dangerous it is to mess with the divine in the Majestic Wilderlands.

The same with the Eye and Hand of Corum. Both are obviously artifacts. If the PCs messes around with them in anyway then they just signed on for any consequences that result of doing that. If in the worst case you only told them that they were withered hand and a shriveled eyeball that is still enough of a red flag that if the PCs was stupid enough to try to use them without further information (or incorporate them into his body) I will levy the full consequences.

Dec 18, 2017 5:20:00 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Example two involves something happening around players without them getting an opportunity to perform an action. Both could be potentially annoying.

Again shirt happens. The players either trust you as referee or they don't. If they trust then they should realize that it is a fair ruling that they were too far or too late to effect the outcome. However to really give a good answer you need to paint a clearer picture of the circumstances of the encounter.

[robertsconley]

Dec 18, 2017 7:44:11 GMT -6 coffee said:

Now, capturing a player character might require a house rule. But that's another matter.

Since when? Even if you use zero hit points = death there are still many ways of capturing a PC without killing them.

[DungeonDevil]

OS will always work. The idea that it doesn't is about as silly as an incompetent carpenter blaming his mistake on a "left-handed hammer". *eye-roll*

[ritt]

Dec 18, 2017 7:19:57 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Dec 17, 2017 15:10:06 GMT -6 ritt said:

No offence, but I disagree with the whole premise of this thread.

Nothing is more hardcore Old School than just making crap up on your own and coloring outside the lines of the rule book or the accepted ideas of what the game is "Supposed" to be.

There's a difference between making stuff up within the agreed-upon rules system, and making stuff up breaking or changing the agreed-upon rules system and denying the players their action.

Obviously there is a give-and-take relationship between the players and the GM, and it requires a deft touch, and it's not something you learn overnight.

But a role-playing game is a very different creature than a war game or Monopoly or Poker or Magic: The Gathering or Bridge. The rules are not the game, but rather a framework you can use as an aid to play the game. YOUR game.

[hamurai]

True, but is it fun to play heroes and the ref describes (to take the original example) a coach stopping next to you; a dark person jumps out and grabs one of the ladies at the market. She screams for help but all are too afraid to help, and then:
"I cast Hold Person!", the wizard's player yells, intent on stopping the crime quickly without bloodshed.
"You can't, he's too fast", says the ref.
"I cast fog to distract him and the driver so they can't get away!"
"That's not going to work."
"I jump at the dark one and try to grapple him, at least throw him on the ground to stop him", joins in the fighter's player.
"He's too fast", says the ref.
"*sigh* OK then, you just tell us what must happen and when we can play our characters again."

That's nothing like monopoly or poker. That's a (bad) movie. A railroad. A bad ref decision. It's like saying "You're helpless when I say you are, and for that scene, you are." It's like loving the villain so much you don't want the characters to beat him with a quick strike, no matter how great the idea is. You take away the player's ability to join the game at this moment. This is not about the rules being a framework, I agree with you on that.

The same scene of the kidnapping could be much better if the coach stopped at the other side of the market and because the pc's have higher ground, they can see what happens. It's out of range for spells (and if the wizard casts a longe-range spell, the spell might hit but not work, the kidnapper shimmering in an arcane light, runes dancing about him and shielding him) and running over there will make them loose sight of the kidnapper, and it will take a while to get there because of the crowd. It's basically the same thing, the characters can only watch, but at least they can try. And when they try, they might learn about the kidnapper (spell-caster, or at least can employ scrolls?) and because they tried and failed, they'll be even more eager to get back at the dark one.

My opinion and experience. If it works for you to take away the player's ability to act and make them listen to your story, go for it. I tried in my early years of refereeing and the effect on the players was bad.

[howandwhy99]

Dec 17, 2017 11:37:55 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

What are your thoughts on this stuff?

You know I saw the thread title and was kind of interested. What can we do when Outdoor Survival doesn't work?

Here's my friendly little rant: Old School cannot "not work". It's a particular manner of designing and running a game. There is no point in blaming game design for not enabling what games don't do. Gaming isn't a collaborative improv activity, nor is it the following of a plot. Narrative concepts are really, quite fundamentally, irrelevant to understanding games, including D&D. D&D is simply a game; one the players play and the DMs run behind the screen.

If you want the players to investigate something, put it in the game and allow them to discover it as they go. One thing I find works for this is to track paths, the trails game pieces leave during the games operation. If you want players to attack something I've found designing game elements which reactively or even actively act to inhibit or limit the PCs (the players game pieces) tend to get similar reactions from players. But thinking "I want the players to do this" isn't a good way to think about game design IMO. Rather build an interesting design which allows for many outcomes and varied difficulty and put it in the game, thus allowing players to interact with it to increase their personal game proficiency and understanding as they are capable and as they see fit.

On the second point, Hit Locations as an additional design element (for anything hittable) are pretty common and very useful IMO. They aren't too hard to implement.

[talysman]

You guys seem to be interpreting Finarvyn's post in a way I'm sure he didn't mean.

He wasn't insulting old school methods or saying they are broken. He was asking what people do when they and their group prefer an old school approach, but you have a plot hook or other idea that's hard to implement in an old school manner, without either making up elaborate rules for a one-off situation (the hit location example) or railroading to guarantee the plot hook is completely set up as imagined (the kidnapping example.)

My suggestion was to examine the idea carefully, because you might not actually need hit location rules, or might be able to achieve the goals of the plot hook without actually railroading.

[howandwhy99]

Sorry if I'm coming off too gruff. Remember the 80s "Hook, Line, and Sinker" idea? That was a common way to draw out how players might enter into a game module. First encountering something out of the ordinary. Then looking it over the players learn the potential value to it (often published as a quest). And then the twist on expectations, what I think of as revealing a larger context allowing smart players greater insight into what they only faintly knew. (That's my take anyways).

Another way to think of this is how modules are entered. I think of a module like a large wargame scenario designed like a "middle game" in Chess (unless it's a campaign starting module). It's intricately balanced, can be succeeded or failed at in all kinds of ways, yet it largely stands on its own as a game (player challenge). However, this tangle still needs to be connected to the rest of the game board/campaign (and balanced therein too). That allows for the consequences of the players play, their successes and failures, to carryover to the rest of the game. The point is, all of a module's ties into the rest of the game are entrances to it. In fact, the consequences of the players play up until they enter the module (or at any point as they leave and reenter) likely has already affected the starting point for the design.

For example, if the players somehow managed to convince most of Elredd to evacuate, then the slavers aren't going to have as many slaves in the stockade. Prices will be higher. And their ships will have to sail away longer on their raids potentially meaning Hightown is weakly protected for awhile longer. This could not just change how wandering the city goes in A1, but A1 and A2's inhabitants.

[Finarvyn]

Well, certainly OS has worked well for me overall since the 1970's so I have no real intent on bashing the system. Indeed, I founded this place to discuss OD&D and not to bash it. I just realize that some "story game" systems handle certain situations better, such as the two that I described, and I've never been able to pull off either scenario well using "by the book" OD&D.

With the hit location methods, I'm certainly aware of Blackmoor's system and have used such rules on occasion. I don't use them every campaign because in general I don't like them -- they change the balance of power way too much when a single body part only gets a fraction of the HP total and one can be taken out so much faster than without using hit locations. But it's also not fair for me to bring in a hit location system for just a battle or two until I can make my hand-eye thing happen, then hand wave it away again.

Along the way, my additional question that I was planning on asking (but apparently didn't merge with my original thought and original post) was to see what other situations folks have encountered where OS gaming (this being OD&D, AD&D, 2E, clones, whatever) really isn't built to handle. I'm thinking there ought to be quite a few.

[hamurai]

Dec 20, 2017 4:21:25 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Along the way, my additional question that I was planning on asking (but apparently didn't merge with my original thought and original post) was to see what other situations folks have encountered where OS gaming (this being OD&D, AD&D, 2E, clones, whatever) really isn't built to handle. I'm thinking there ought to be quite a few.

I've found some social situations to be represented too abstract or uninteresting, among them fear, (in)sanity, or (courtly) intrigue and ("scientific") debates and stuff like that. Of course you can handle all these with just a single roll of the dice and then tell the story about it coming to happen this way or that, but it lacks the depths of combat encounters.
Therefore, I have once included a system for "social hit points" (derived from level and charisma) and "mental hit points" (derived from level and INT/WIS) in my game to make these situations a little more interesting. It was far from perfect, but when you play lords with your own castle, intrigue is one factor underrepresented in D&D in general. The decline of social HP* did make for a nice change, as players felt urged to make social decisions, to actually rule their land. Mental HP were used when I brought in some Cthulhu-esque elements, but that wasn't as successful as the social HP.

* Other regents would try to discredit the PCs, wrong behaviour in public could cost social HP, making sound decisions in court would raise them, and so on.

[scottenkainen]

Dec 20, 2017 0:16:41 GMT -6 howandwhy99 said:

For example, if the players somehow managed to convince most of Elredd to evacuate, then the slavers aren't going to have as many slaves in the stockade. Prices will be higher. And their ships will have to sail away longer on their raids potentially meaning Hightown is weakly protected for awhile longer. This could not just change how wandering the city goes in A1, but A1 and A2's inhabitants.

That is some brilliant "outside the box" thinking. I can't wait for someone to run the Slave Lords modules for me again now.

[scottenkainen]

Dec 20, 2017 4:21:25 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

With the hit location methods, I'm certainly aware of Blackmoor's system and have used such rules on occasion. I don't use them every campaign because in general I don't like them -- they change the balance of power way too much when a single body part only gets a fraction of the HP total and one can be taken out so much faster than without using hit locations. But it's also not fair for me to bring in a hit location system for just a battle or two until I can make my hand-eye thing happen, then hand wave it away again.

You could tell them that up front that "this dungeon is so dangerous, if you go inside, we're going to be using hit location rules." Then the players understand it's not a campaign-wide rules adjustment and, if they don't like it, they can just choose not to explore that dungeon. I did something similar running Tegel Manor, where I temporarily introduced sanity points into the campaign, but specific to only that one location.

[Vile Traveller]

I've been putting off reading this thread because I thought it was about computers.

[riftstone]

I am not really sure what you are going for. Are you looking to create a need within the group to replace a hand/limb with an artifact? Or are you trying to create an special item from the player's lost extremities?

If the former, just have them find the item, tease them with the amount of power the item wearer will wield, and see who cuts what off first. Player agency.