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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 21, 2017 8:16:54 GMT -6
For example, after reading Moorcock's Corum stories I thought it would be cool to give a player magic items similar to the eye and hand that Corum had in the literature. The problem is that OD&D doesn't have hit location rules to allow for a severed limb or lost eye, so (unless I go out of my way to institute such rules just for this occasion) I'm pretty much stuck. Play GURPS. Seriously. The point of GURPS is to be like D&D except adding in all those fine-tuned details that D&D glosses over. Case in point: in D&D, the DM will often let you just blurt out, "I search the room!" and you just find stuff. In GURPS, you have to specify HOW you search the room, and you'll want to be trained to do it: Architecture skill to find hidden features of the room itself. Carpentry skill to notice something odd with the woodwork. Criminology skill to find macroscopic evidence left behind by a criminal. Electrician skill to spot something strange about the lights or wiring. Forensics skill to discover traces of blood, explosives, fibers, etc. Masonry skill to identify unusual stonework. Observation skill to "case the joint." Tracking skill to pick up on footprints on the floor. Traps skill to find traps and secret doors. This is just railroading, not a rules issue. Redesign your adventure in a way that lets players retain their autonomy, or tell your players, "This is a railroad." There's another way to do this. Hand your players "introduction characters," who play through the introductory plot where the villain performs the kidnapping. Let the players do whatever they want as these minor, throwaway characters, but they won't have the abilities necessary to stop the villain. Once the introduction is over, switch the players back to their normal characters. This technique is recommended for the Doctor Who Roleplaying Game, to resemble the prologue act of a Doctor Who episode, in which minor characters get attacked by the monster or discover a problem, and thereby set up the conflict the main characters will drop into.
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Post by robertsconley on Dec 21, 2017 10:59:12 GMT -6
Along the way, my additional question that I was planning on asking (but apparently didn't merge with my original thought and original post) was to see what other situations folks have encountered where OS gaming (this being OD&D, AD&D, 2E, clones, whatever) really isn't built to handle. I'm thinking there ought to be quite a few. I haven't anything that OS gaming can't handle because if there nothing in the rule book I fall back on how the setting I am using works. I am going to make a ruling with the mechanical details that GURPS, Harnmaster, and Ars Magica supplies, not likely. In AD&D, 60 GURPS combat rounds with all the bells and whistles are condense into a pair of d20 attack roll. How detailed you get is a preference tweaked to taste. Not a hard and fast requirement for resolving whatever it is the player can reasonably do as his character. The tools of rolling a d20, using attributes as a guideline, saving throws, armor class, hit points, and levels are more than sufficient to come up series of dice roll to handle what characters could do in an environment that is the rough equivalent of earth's middle ages with fantasy elements.
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muddy
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 158
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Post by muddy on Dec 21, 2017 11:00:53 GMT -6
A lot of good ideas in this thread.
I don't recall ever having an issue with hit location and permanent effects, combat was always rather graphically described and the nature of the injury was determined by the circumstances + the amount of damage done. I remember one hireling - a link boy - who lost an arm and the players had it replaced with something that could hold a torch, and a player character who lost the lower portion of his right leg to a purple worm, and then became known as 'Pegleg'.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 22, 2017 2:39:31 GMT -6
- Gygax, (61 AD&D DMG)
Heroic fantasy offers a kind of agency counter to the realism implied in the convention of the 'normal man' i.e, multiple HD. Heroic Fantasy is the concept behind the abstraction of multiple HD. Multiple hit die are a signifier a figure exceeds 'the normal human range' as Joseph Campbell speaks of the heroic. If the realism of wounds or unfavorable circumstances that exceed the prowess of heroic fantasy characters is desired the numerical framing becomes ambiguous, e.g. do I attach a critical hit score or die or keep to the abstraction and hand wave for a desired result?
Gygax holds loosely to his own advice, penning multiple rulings peppering his modules which break with the abstraction allowing for broken limbs and decapitation. Of course, this dance begins with rulings like hit location in OD&D. Realism and Fantasy are at odds even for Gygax and he looks for ways to undermine 'the stuff of heroic fantasy'! Why? Well, to satisfy a latent need for 'simulation - realism' (9 DMG) which is assumed or perhaps 'obscured' in the abstraction. Real life Beheadings and kidnappings happen even in a fantasy roleplaying game - no matter 'how absurd' (9 DMG). He writes 'this is not to say where it (realism) does not interfere with the flow of the game the highest degree of realism hasn‘t been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged' (9 DMG).
Like OD&D and AD&D in their day, adherents of OS confront the same question of agency in the tension between realism and heroic fantasy. Once Heroes and Superheroes grace the field or hall one may be tempted to find another mechanic to discern an outcome, i.e, the d20 saving throw. And yet traps and secret doors may kill or thwart the designs of any level character on a d6; perhaps a numerical outlier of an earlier design much like being thrown from a horse in Chainmail.
For myself I am fond of dice reflecting the realism of the encounter and leaving the agency to party order, positioning, weapon choice, fatigue, morale scores (a version of a save) and appropriate implementation of figures as needed - a figure dawning plate mail will not be taking point as a scout. As our campaign is limited to normal men and leaders in a low-fantasy setting weapon entrapment, incapacitating wounds or a slow death are easily plausible and all with a discrete roll of one and two 6 sided dice.
Conversely, a figure of heroic fantasy conjures the idea of someone who stands beyond the normal range of adversity; so, of course, as did Gygax, we default to more hit dice and addendums to the abstraction should the probability spread be not wide enough to frame the slim or decreasing probability of failure in a fantasy milieu.
'OS always works' as Dungeondevil espouses, but the heroic concept beneath the design makes it harder and harder to achieve a desired realism in D&D without resorting to wider probability spreads and more dice rolling, giving OD&D and AD&D a sometimes passing resemblance to games like Gurps, Warhammer and Rolemaster.
The same consideration applies to scenarios like kidnapping: it is hard to imagine a heroic fantasy figure deprived of the chance to avail the odds and yet in a grittier game, events occur that are not in the figure's favor and all within the company or unit must adapt or fall apart.
Given the dance Gygax engages there is precedent for either choice. One may turn the abstraction inside out for an emphasis on the realism of a wound or circumstance at the risk of obstructing play and disrupting the elegance of the abstraction itself, or as ritt and Gronan remind us, one may handwave and make up the game desired, both are well within the bounds of OS.
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Post by countingwizard on Dec 22, 2017 12:19:05 GMT -6
I re-imagined the hitpoint system for D&D, and I think my method was pretty straight-forward and non-cumbersome, but I'm too much of a traditionalist so I decided to go back to hitpoints instead. I basically removed hitpoints, and replaced it with a type of hits-to-kill system. More than anything it makes the DM's job of tracking monster hitpoints much easier, while increasing the difficulty/threat of all encounters by shifting the randomness from d6 damage to the 2d6 injury table. Toughness = Hitpoints = Hits to kill. Light Wounds = Damage = a regular hit with no long-lasting effect Characters can sustain light wounds up to the number of their toughness. Exceeding that number can cause injuries. Injuries = a regular serious wound to a specific body part that indicate a character still has normal use of that limb, but receives a minor impairment. Crippling Injuries = two regular serious wounds to the same body part, or an injury to a body part that was already injured. Indicates complete loss of functionality of a limb, and requires twice as much healing as a normal injury. It has a pretty simple framework: 1. Roll 1d20 to-hit as normal. 2. If a hit is scored, roll 1d6 to determine the body location hit (for purely descriptive purposes in most cases). 3. Mark that a light wound was received unless... a. The character's wounds equal toughness, in which case... i. Roll 2d6 on the Injury Table, and character immediately suffers the effects. ii. The DM gives the character an injury card that matches the associated body location hit. Injury cards count for one serious wound. Crippling injury cards effectively count as two serious wounds. b. Monster's wounds equal toughness, in which case the monster is slain. 4. Next character's turn. I've attached the PDFs I created for these rules if anyone cares. They haven't been playtested extensively though; and could probably use a little more tweaking. It includes changes to spells that heal or cause damage, how to handle some additional mechanics that might result in damage (dragon's breath, falling, different sized monster attacks, etc.)
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Post by robertsconley on Dec 22, 2017 14:14:13 GMT -6
With all due respect to Gary Gygax not all of us play heroic fantasy when using the either the OD&D or AD&D rules. And there are times when Howard, Lieber, and Tolkien had the heroes make a pin point shot or hit. And you don't have to bolt on GURPS to adjudicate the instances when player feels that it is important to damage a specific location.
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Post by robertsconley on Dec 22, 2017 14:27:14 GMT -6
I basically removed hitpoints, and replaced it with a type of hits-to-kill system. More than anything it makes the DM's job of tracking monster hitpoints much easier, while increasing the difficulty/threat of all encounters by shifting the randomness from d6 damage to the 2d6 injury table. You didn't remove hit points you reduced them. Which to me is an excellent way of tweaking things to make the mechanics reflect how you visualize your setting but still keeping the game recognizably D&D. On the other hand adding a hit location chart doesn't feel very D&Dish to me. D&D never been a system where one roll equals one swing. But it is reasonable to rule that the result of a six second, one minute combat round a specific location was struck That it should be more difficult to achieve than a standard attack as the attracker is trying create a specific opourtunity in which a location can be struck.
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Post by sepulchre on Dec 22, 2017 15:17:57 GMT -6
Robertsconley wrote:
As I noted above, I do not either, however, playing figures beyond the range of normal men and their leaders (veterans as they come to be understood in OD&D)that is those with multiple hit dice is the beginning of heroic fantasy...
Certainly not, as noted OD&D readily provides the option. The difficulty is that the adjucation often disrupts the abstraction or takes the form of a hand wave which to some feels overwrought and unfair. The ambiguity of the adjucation comes with the design.
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Post by derv on Dec 22, 2017 17:11:37 GMT -6
I re-imagined the hitpoint system for D&D, and I think my method was pretty straight-forward and non-cumbersome, but I'm too much of a traditionalist so I decided to go back to hitpoints instead. I had worked up something similar to this. The main difference is that I apportioned each body segment a percentage of the characters HPT. Hit Point Total is the same as it traditionally is, HD x d6 +/- mods. All injuries sustained to a body segment within these percentile values would be considered minor wounds. Minor wounds can be bound immediately after a combat. Damage in excess would be considered a major wound. Major wounds require rest or magical healing to repair. Two wounds to the same part that sustained a major wound is a critical wound. Critical wounds may lead to death, disfigurement, and/or permanent loss. Damage to any one part in excess of a characters HPT is death, regardless. So, a Veteran with high CON might have a HPT of something like 6. Of this he could sustain 3 hits to the head (50%), 5 to the torso (80%), 4 to each leg and arm (60%), as minor wounds. If a GM wanted to include hands and feet, they would account for 2 hp's each at 30%. Basically I find hit locations fiddly at the table, so tend not to use them. Once in a while you like to try something different.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2017 11:07:50 GMT -6
I am not really sure what you are going for. Are you looking to create a need within the group to replace a hand/limb with an artifact? Or are you trying to create an special item from the player's lost extremities? If the former, just have them find the item, tease them with the amount of power the item wearer will wield, and see who cuts what off first. Player agency. The Peener of Vecna! ...um... you first.
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Post by foxroe on Dec 23, 2017 19:45:21 GMT -6
You know I saw the thread title and was kind of interested. What can we do when Outdoor Survival doesn't work? LOL. That's exactly what I thought when I saw the topic, and having never played Outdoor Survival (actually, maybe once), I ignored this thread until now. I have nothing really useful to add to the discussion that hasn't already been pointed out. But, I will add two observations: 1) Why "railroad"? Let the characters interact with the "scene". You can always work elements into the "scene" that would make it difficult for the players to successfully thwart your intentions (i.e. sleep spells are a two-way street ). If they screw up your intended outcome, try something else. 2) There is precedent in "old school" for pushing players down predetermined paths (usually at the start of an adventure, just to get the ball rolling). Example: In the classic Traveller double-adventure Marooned/Marooned Alone, one of the players is initially separated from the rest of the party and plays through the Marooned Alone adventure, while the remaining party members play through Marooned.
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Post by foxroe on Dec 23, 2017 19:49:10 GMT -6
I am not really sure what you are going for. Are you looking to create a need within the group to replace a hand/limb with an artifact? Or are you trying to create an special item from the player's lost extremities? If the former, just have them find the item, tease them with the amount of power the item wearer will wield, and see who cuts what off first. Player agency. The Peener of Vecna! ...um... you first. Heh. Don't you mean the fabled Peener of Vhy'Agara?
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Post by derv on Dec 23, 2017 22:08:29 GMT -6
2) There is precedent in "old school" for pushing players down predetermined paths (usually at the start of an adventure, just to get the ball rolling). Example: In the classic Traveller double-adventure Marooned/Marooned Alone, one of the players is initially separated from the rest of the party and plays through the Marooned Alone adventure, while the remaining party members play through Marooned. Considering all the backlash and condescension that is bantered about "railroading", as if this originated by poor GMing, I'd be surprised if others have never experienced players who require it. I mean, I've been in situations where players expect it and are not accustomed to an open ended game. They literally do not know what is expected of them as players and want the GM to guide them. Of course I step back and explain to them the basics of OS. Eventually they catch on...or not. Some players are just lazy. I guess my point is that it's not always prompted by a GM's agenda.
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Post by hamurai on Dec 24, 2017 1:05:14 GMT -6
Nothing wrong with a little railroading here and there to get or keep the story going. It's not (necessarily) bad GM'ing. It's not even about the lazy players. When you set out to play a specific story and the players know it (and agree), they'll happily agree to a little railroading to get into the story.
In our online group's experience, railroading is even often required after a full day's work. The brain is tired and the ideas don't come as easily as usually. That's when we regularly employ the railroad. The thing is, it's accepted by all and no one feels railroaded against their will. I think that's the point, really. Some players accept railroading, others don't.
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Post by derv on Dec 24, 2017 7:20:39 GMT -6
Yeh, I can see that too. Frequently what comes to my mind is expectations based on video games, possibly tv shows. This could be my own faulty reasoning since it is a past time. People are looking to be entertained. Expectations vary.
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 30, 2017 13:19:18 GMT -6
Or how about a case where I want the characters to witness something such as a kidnapping in order to start off an adventure, but by the rulebook they would gain the ability to act and perhaps thwart the kidnapping before the plot can get going. It always seemed awkward to say "okay, so the villain does these three things and then escapes before you get a turn. What do you do?" Both of these cases involve instances of role play through DM fiat that aren't really addressed in OD&D and similar era games. I found out somewhere on a forum or a blog , some time ago, this quote from MAR Barker : "After awhile, I began using the simplest possible system with my own gaming groups. As my old friend, Dave Arneson, and I agreed, one simple die roll is all that one needs: failure or success. The players don’t really care, as long as the roll is honest. Who cares if I hit with the flat of my shield, with the edge of my shield, or whatever? The story’s the thing! " If the kidnapping scene takes place in the middle of a game, I use what I call the "hazard dice": I roll a D6: -1,2: the events are unfavorable to the players: a wandering monster comes by, the pit trap opens, the villain escapes ... -3,4: the status quo is unchanged (for good or for ill): the players can still act and change the tide in their favor -5,6: the events are favorable to the players! the secret door is found, the stuck door opens, the villains trips and falls. On teh other hand , if the kidnapping scene takes place at the very beggining of the game, as a starter, I don't hesitate to make the action start in medias res instead of forcing the players to "live" throg a mere "cutscene" they cannot change . "You have just witnessed Porhyrius , the evil sorcerer, kidnapping the good king in front of all the Court by mens of a paralyzing gas and teleportation device . Now the place is all full of ruckus. A searching party is being formed. You're free to act as you see fit. What do you do ? "
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