tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2014 20:35:54 GMT -6
Look princess, your metaphors are excruciating and illogical. In this world, which is the real world, no-one needs your permission to give their judgement. oh no I have been schooled how will I ever live with myself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 21:13:59 GMT -6
Perhaps VH is closer to the LotFP assumptions? Oh totally, and I too would not want to permanently run or play in such a world. But I can appreciate the angle and would consider using it for a "visit". As for the "Gonzo" elements of CSIO, when I was 16 or so, I methodically went through the guidebook, changing most of the belly dancers and fish merchants that were really Ogres or gods or 9th level Magic-Users or whatever, into "0-levels", under the influence of the "Gygaxian Naturalism" of the Dungeon Master's Guide. After all, wouldn't that be more realistic (and also, as I saw it, give the player-characters a better chance of surviving a trip to the corner grocery)? Now, as a middle-aged reconvert to OD&D, I believe that a sort of Gonzo attitude (in moderation of course) is part of the essence of the fun-as you so appropriately identified. And obviously I'm sorry that I defaced my book. As I understand it, one of the modern redo's of CSIO (by Mayfair, perhaps?) sort of did the same thing. In Dave Arneson's original BLACKMOOR, there was no such thing as Raise Dead. Characters would be frequently retired around 5th or 6th level, and would sometimes buy an inn or suchlike. So, CSIO fits perfectly with that.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 9, 2014 21:36:42 GMT -6
In Dave Arneson's original BLACKMOOR, there was no such thing as Raise Dead. That's quite notable. I'm sure you've mentioned that, or it has come up before, mentioned by others that were around, or perhaps by historians, such as Jon Peterson. But now I feel better not including the spell in my game
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 10, 2014 7:25:05 GMT -6
Still trying to figure out why author personality must therefore equal product quality.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 10, 2014 9:07:24 GMT -6
Still trying to figure out why author personality must therefore equal product quality. It doesn't. Perhaps folks are just trolling to see if they can get me to lock this thread. Don't let them bother you. What I find is that I tend to like an author or dislike him, and by this I look at what he writes instead of what he's like outside of the written work. Robert E Howard was racist and suicidal, yet still ranks among my favorite authors of all time. Having said that, however, I can see where a person might like or dislike a written work based on the author simply because the author's personality often comes through in the work. To stick with the example of REH, some of his writings would never be PC enough to be published nowadays if he already hadn't built a level of fame. When I read about REH's life, I sometimes think "wow, this guy was sure messed up" but that doesn't equate to me disliking his stories and imagination. I don't know anything about Vornheim or Zak S, but in reading posts on the kind of content in the product I'm not sure I'd like it. If Zak S is the kind of person who likes that sort of thing, it's possible that I wouldn't like him either. I really don't know, and this is pure speculation on my part. What I don't really understand is the whole "I don't like something and therefore you shouldn't either" mentality expressed so much in this thread.
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Post by ritt on Jul 10, 2014 10:22:49 GMT -6
writing is absolutely saturated with a macabre mood that makes me sick (turn to any page to read about harm being done to animals and children, women being assaulted, excessive descriptions of possession, demon-worship, occultism, and drug use);
No offence Falconer, but IMHO this an exaggeration. Vornheim is Tim Burton gothic, maybe at it's most graphic Marilyn Manson gothic. It's not Carcosa (The second best thing ever produced by the OSR) or Death Love Doom.
Maybe I should try my hand at a city supplement that actually lives up (or down?) to this description. How does CITY-STATE OF THE UNSPEAKABLE ANTI-GOD sound?
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Post by Red Baron on Jul 10, 2014 10:44:02 GMT -6
CITY-STATE OF THE UNSPEAKABLE ANTI-GOD sound? Star-Ship of the Invisible Thunder-Sword? Call James Raggi right now with your product pitch! Anyways, what matters about Vornheim, isn't the mood of the place. Its how cities are treated as massive sprawling overground dungeons, that can be randomly generated on the fly by drawing out overlapping letters an numbers.
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Post by BeZurKur on Jul 10, 2014 10:57:25 GMT -6
And in comes Fin to classy up the joint with a reasonable response to some unreasonable reactions. I say that with a bit of a heavy heart because I always thought of the ODD74 boards as a classy joint to begin with.
Anyhow, I’m here to offer... not a review, but a preview of some of the things you may find in Vornheim -- one of my favorite OSR products. You can decide for yourselves if it is something along your tastes.
On the fluff side: “the brutal operas of the Reptile Men that... engage in ritual combat at crucial moments... Few of these entertainments end the same way twice.”
“the skins of all snakes can be read like books... shedding old knowledge for new.”
The festival “The Day of the Masks, where everyone must wear a disguise (which supposedly fools the Demon of the Eightfold Wind into believing Vornheim is another city entirely and therefore ignoring it.)”
On the mechanics side: Innovative ways to read charts to offer different tiers of information. How many tiers you choose to read is up to you and the situation.
Charts to develop complicated social webs between NPCs that offer either immediate answers during gameplay or inspiration for more planned/developed adventure prep.
A quick way to design city and building layout for when the players go to that section the DM still hasn’t fully mapped. (Critical in a sprawling city setting.)
On the utility side: Location -- The House of the Medusa, home of Eshrigel, a mask-toting cruel aristocrat who... yeah, is a medusa.
Location -- Immortal Zoo of Ping Feng, a bricked up, disguised, magical zoo somewhere in the quarters of Vornheim.
And, oh man the charts, charts, and then some more charts.
Above are nine highlights of some of the material in Vornheim. Hopefully that will help in figuring out if it is something along your individual tastes. As for me, I paid full price for my copy and regardless of the Pay What You Want pricing that it is being offered now, I’d gladly pay full amount again for it if I didn’t own it.
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Post by Lorgalis on Jul 10, 2014 11:01:44 GMT -6
I think Vornheim is is in many ways an anti book - similar to the anti-coloring books. It was not really created to play in Vornheim, though one could. It was a loose set of ideas/trick/gimmicks one could mimic to help create a city with some detail on the fly. The book simply happens to use Zak's material/ideas to fill in the holes so one can see what can be done by example.
I think that is fairly slick, and I would borrow some of those tricks.
Not everyone needs or wants tricks, and some may have better tricks, but I like the attempt to make one think about creating.
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Post by Lorgalis on Jul 10, 2014 11:10:31 GMT -6
I think we should create a new forum game entitled *** Create a Jazzy, Offbeat RPG title riffing of the great RPG mega title The City State of the Invincible Overlord ***
So Noun Noun of the Adjective (three syllables) Noun (three syllable)
City State of the Unspeakable Anti-God Star Ship of the Invisible Thunder Sword
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 11:21:28 GMT -6
Gigantic Brewery of the Flatulent Gronan!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 11:23:40 GMT -6
Actually, it should be "Gigantic Brewery of the Flatulent Simmeryan!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 11:25:32 GMT -6
Look princess, your metaphors are excruciating and illogical. In this world, which is the real world, no-one needs your permission to give their judgement. oh no I have been schooled how will I ever live with myself. I think I like you, kid.
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arcadayn
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 236
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Post by arcadayn on Jul 10, 2014 11:27:27 GMT -6
Vornheim is one of my all time favorite RPG supplements. It's definitely my go to city book, no matter which RPG or genre I'm running. I feel it's a completely different beast from books like CSIO, Haven, or even Cities. Those books help me prep a city, but Vornheim helps me develop the city on the fly during actual play. It is very quick to reference, and gives just enough info to give my brain time to fill in the rest of the details.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 10, 2014 11:34:31 GMT -6
Robert E Howard was racist and suicidal, yet still ranks among my favorite authors of all time. Having said that, however, I can see where a person might like or dislike a written work based on the author simply because the author's personality often comes through in the work. To stick with the example of REH, some of his writings would never be PC enough to be published nowadays if he already hadn't built a level of fame. When I read about REH's life, I sometimes think "wow, this guy was sure messed up" but that doesn't equate to me disliking his stories and imagination. As Orwell once pointed out, Jack London had a fascist view, yet I thoroughly enjoy his story The Iron Heel (and White Fang keeps getting assigned to school kids). Freidrich Engels' favorite author was the belligerent Royalist Honore Balzac. Frank Miller is a racist jerk, but Dark Knight Returns is an awesome comic. Joe Shuster drew fetish art. Hemingway and Fitzgerald were alcoholics. Steve Ditko is an Objectivist flake. Neal Adams has some unusual ideas about the Earth. Creativity is weird stuff, and doesn't always come from angels, and there's very little connection between a creator's private life and their output, unless they set out to make one.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 10, 2014 11:39:50 GMT -6
CITY-STATE OF THE UNSPEAKABLE ANTI-GOD sound? Star-Ship of the Invisible Thunder-Sword? Call James Raggi right now with your product pitch! Anyways, what matters about Vornheim, isn't the mood of the place. Its how cities are treated as massive sprawling overground dungeons, that can be randomly generated on the fly by drawing out overlapping letters an numbers. I dunno, I think the whole idea of using letters/numbers to quickly map out territory without fretting about drawing the whole dang city beforehand is brilliant. I'm sure there are people who think using geomorphs is cheating. De gustibus non disputandum est, I guess.
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Post by hagbard on Jul 10, 2014 12:33:41 GMT -6
Vornheim is easily one of my favorite indie related RPG supplements out there. I have used it countless times in my games.
The author is certainly controversial from what I've been reading, but he's got cred in my book based on the fact he puts his money where his mouth is with this thing. I can't think of too many well-regarded 'creators' of material out there coming up with wholly new approaches like he's come up with in Vornheim.
However, I think the pundit guy is a twit. I think he's more of a shock-jock, and I've looked at some of the stuff he's produced and wasn't very impressed. He should stick to doing bad reviews and leave creation to the people who have the actual talent.
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Post by funkaoshi on Jul 10, 2014 14:17:57 GMT -6
Not sure how we ended up talking bout the RPGPundit here. Anyway, I like Vornheim. I have a review of it on my blarg. It's a very creative book. The second half—the random tables and ideas on randomly and quickly generating a city—is probably of more interest to people than the section about the city as it exists in Zak's game. I'd argue the book is worth getting if you want to learn about how to write (and layout) good random tables.
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Post by kent on Jul 10, 2014 14:35:26 GMT -6
I'd argue the book is worth getting if you want to learn about how to write (and layout) good random tables. This is what I disdain in the thinking of the author. Random tables are contemptible as a design tool unless what you are randomising are extremely complicated systems or natural processes. Otherwise it is a design capitulation of incompetent writers.
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Post by hagbard on Jul 10, 2014 14:42:35 GMT -6
I'd argue the book is worth getting if you want to learn about how to write (and layout) good random tables. This is what I disdain in the thinking of the author. Random tables are contemptible as a design tool unless what you are randomising are extremely complicated systems or natural processes. Otherwise it is a design capitulation of incompetent writers. Interesting, the whole point of the book is for the user/reader to create a randomized city adventure. How would you have done it differently if you were to create such a device?
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Post by Falconer on Jul 10, 2014 14:50:40 GMT -6
I would map out the city and stock it, à la CSIO. Do you think the players can’t tell the difference between a locale that already “exists” as opposed to one that is being generated on the fly? Wouldn’t the former feel more worth exploring? I’m genuinely curious what you guys think.
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Post by cooper on Jul 10, 2014 14:59:33 GMT -6
Procedurally generated content is the modern terminology for "random X tables". I think probably the best games and campaigns are a mix of procedurally generated experiences as well as hand crafted ones--and there is no reason even why they can't be combined e.g. A procedurally generated town with hand placed NPC's and encounters. In fact Gygax and Arneson propose that very system for stocking dungeons in book II of 0d&d.
Since the only other published guides on procedurally generating city encounters is in the appendix of the ad&d DMG, I would only think Zak S. Addition would only be well received.
I don't think it's an either/or argument, but a question of balance.
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Post by hagbard on Jul 10, 2014 15:00:36 GMT -6
I would map out the city and stock it, à la CSIO. Do you think the players can’t tell the difference between a locale that already “exists” as opposed to one that is being generated on the fly? Wouldn’t the former feel more worth exploring? I’m genuinely curious what you guys think. I agree it would be more ideal that way, but often times when I'm running a hex-crawl sandbox, the adventurers come to a city which I may not have pre-generated. Cities by their very nature can be very large things to scope out in advance.
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Post by kent on Jul 10, 2014 15:44:29 GMT -6
Do you think the players can’t tell the difference between a locale that already “exists” as opposed to one that is being generated on the fly? Wouldn’t the former feel more worth exploring? This is hitting the nail on the head. My players want me to DESIGN the environment and not to panic or resort to random effect after random effect. I think stupid DMs should resort to random design and competent DMs should think about what they are doing.
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
Posts: 148
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Post by tog on Jul 10, 2014 15:48:55 GMT -6
Hey, if you have nothing better to do than determine the pocket contents and daily schedules of a couple hundred mercantile nonentities, go for it. I'm guessing there are all those random tables pertaining to the City State in the Ready Ref Sheets for a reason.
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Post by Lorgalis on Jul 10, 2014 15:58:56 GMT -6
I was going to mention the Judges Guild Redy Ref Sheets, as a GMs helpful tool. Wandering monster tables do not seem to be the tools of the incompetent. Maybe I missed something.
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Post by Red Baron on Jul 10, 2014 16:02:19 GMT -6
Do you think the players can’t tell the difference between a locale that already “exists” as opposed to one that is being generated on the fly? Wouldn’t the former feel more worth exploring? This is hitting the nail on the head. My players want me to DESIGN the environment and not to panic or resort to random effect after random effect. I think stupid DMs should resort to random design and competent DMs should think about what they are doing. It can kill a game when the dm has to dig out a bunch of old notes he wrote back in the 70s, and then he has to try and figure out what the hell he was trying to say when he wrote it 40 years ago. I've played a lot of games where I never would have known that the content was randomly rolled up on the fly. D&d was written with the mindset that a lot of the stuff that happened would be randomly generated, and that's part of where the whole "things get weird in the dungeon" mindset comes from. In a game of dungeon exploration, the town is a static backround for the characters to fall back on to rest and divy up treasure, but in vornheim the city IS the dungeon so it should instead be treated as a random and weird and perpetually changing environment.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 10, 2014 18:40:26 GMT -6
I think probably the best games and campaigns are a mix of procedurally generated experiences as well as hand crafted ones--and there is no reason even why they can't be combined e.g. A procedurally generated town with hand placed NPC's and encounters. In fact Gygax and Arneson propose that very system for stocking dungeons in book II of 0d&d... I don't think it's an either/or argument, but a question of balance. I agree.
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 10, 2014 23:11:23 GMT -6
How about this as a principle (and this applies to the moderator of the site-Finarvyn-as much as anyone else):
No personal attacks or side-snarks on the person of any living gamer or author:
No
1. He's a jerky jerk-face so don't buy his game
or
2. He may be a jerky jerk-face but you should separate his jerky jerk-faceness from his game
or
3. Well, based on what you've said, he MAY be a jerky jerk-face (it's pure speculation) but since I'm above it all, I don't think people should be making objective (as opposed to relative) judgments about anything.
Give me a freaking break. It's a board about OD&D, not about anyone's opinions on the political, moral or any other characteristic of any of the people involved.
Anyone making personal cracks about Zak S or anyone else, even tangentially, should be very ashamed of themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 23:35:29 GMT -6
Have a great summer, everyone!
I'm taking a short break and I'll return after everyone has vented their spleen and courtesy and acceptance are again the norm rather than an object of ridicule.
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