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Post by Lorgalis on Jul 7, 2014 14:52:35 GMT -6
If you ever wanted to look at this book now is your chance. It's free over at the LotFP website. The opportunity won't last long - until some Dr Who episode airs, so be quick about it.
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Post by kent on Jul 7, 2014 15:01:33 GMT -6
A fair price for such a thing.
Equipoise has been attained.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:15:06 GMT -6
If you ever wanted to look at this book now is your chance. It's free over at the LotFP website. The opportunity won't last long - until some Dr Who episode airs, so be quick about it. I couldn't find it... link? |
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Jul 7, 2014 18:25:21 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 18:33:35 GMT -6
... and though it asks for a "dollar amount" you can enter a zero if you so desire. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 19:37:35 GMT -6
Thanks!
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bea
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Post by bea on Jul 8, 2014 0:15:43 GMT -6
I have it in hardback, but I couldn't resist this. If you're willing to pay for it it's easily worth a few bucks. I paid $2 now, even though I already have a physical copy.
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 8, 2014 12:05:52 GMT -6
I think $0.00 sounds about right/fair
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bea
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Post by bea on Jul 8, 2014 12:30:28 GMT -6
That's the good thing about pay-what-you-want, I guess  |
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Post by ritt on Jul 8, 2014 14:51:56 GMT -6
Vornheim is probably the best published product the OSR has produced yet, IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 15:15:22 GMT -6
I think $0.00 sounds about right/fair I'm rather surprised to hear this since the reviews I've read seem very positive about the usefulness and individuality of this work. May I ask why you feel this way? I'm not trying to stir up an argument, I'm merely curious as to your honest appraisal of this product. I've just bought it, myself, and haven't read enough to render an opinion. At least, not yet! |
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 8, 2014 15:29:06 GMT -6
Hi Dubeers,
I have skimmed thru the product and was not that impressed.
Weighing more heavily in my opinion though is I (doubtful I am alone in this opinion) feel that the author is an abrasive drama clown.
I know he has his fanboys/followers en masse that feel different and that's fine with me. Just my opinion. People can play or like whatever game they choose to.
Thanks
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 15:44:52 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really don't know much about the author though there has been some buzz about him lately because of his mention on 5e's frontispiece. I've been ruminating lately over works that deviate from the standard FRPG supplements and particularly campaigns. I've some thoughts regarding that which I may publish on another thread in the next few days to see what others think.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 21:30:58 GMT -6
Is the product good? Then it's good.
The personality of the author is irrelevant.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 6:43:09 GMT -6
Is the product good? Then it's good. The personality of the author is irrelevant. I agree and that is the general thought I was trying to gently communicate. Thanks for summing it up a bit more succinctly!  |
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Post by scalydemon on Jul 9, 2014 9:59:06 GMT -6
Maybe people missed my 1st sentence? I read the product and didn't like it. Also it is a free market economy. I, or anyone else has the right to buy or not buy products based on whatever reason I choose. Besides that y'all are spot on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 10:00:55 GMT -6
Hi Dubeers, I have skimmed thru the product and was not that impressed. Weighing more heavily in my opinion though is I (doubtful I am alone in this opinion) feel that the author is an abrasive drama clown. I know he has his fanboys/followers en masse that feel different and that's fine with me. Just my opinion. People can play or like whatever game they choose to. Thanks So you're acting like an abrasive drama clown because you think Zak is an abrasive drama clown? This kind of crap has no place in a discussion. Can it. |
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bea
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by bea on Jul 9, 2014 10:08:32 GMT -6
Guys, my G+ feed is already infected with this... Can we just accept that anyone has the right to buy or not buy a product for whatever reason? I feel like I started this because I gave an opinion about what I thought a fair price is. Scalydemon countered with his own opinion, and motivated it when prompted. All fair and square.
Let's not make a conflict where none is warranted.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 9, 2014 10:43:42 GMT -6
Well, I am not familiar with the author’s blog, but I did download Vornheim, and it appears to have roughly the same contents as CSIO, except… - CSIO is actually fleshed out, its map keyed (and almost every key contains an actual adventure hook), whereas VH seems to rely on random tables for generation on the fly;
- CSIO’s map is a thousand times more attractive and usable;
- VH has the “weirdness” turned up to 12; it’s just not my style; the drawings are intentionally crude; the buildings are excessively baroque and “punk” (think Planescape), and the writing is absolutely saturated with a macabre mood that makes me sick (turn to any page to read about harm being done to animals and children, women being assaulted, excessive descriptions of possession, demon-worship, occultism, and drug use); CSIO, by comparison, is an imaginative but joyous showcase of everything in OD&D and the supplements.
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Post by cleverkobold on Jul 9, 2014 13:35:58 GMT -6
Well, I am not familiar with the author’s blog, but I did download Vornheim, and it appears to have roughly the same contents as CSIO, except… - CSIO is actually fleshed out, its map keyed (and almost every key contains an actual adventure hook), whereas VH seems to rely on random tables for generation on the fly;
- CSIO’s map is a thousand times more attractive and usable;
- VH has the “weirdness” turned up to 12; it’s just not my style; the drawings are intentionally crude; the buildings are excessively baroque and “punk” (think Planescape), and the writing is absolutely saturated with a macabre mood that makes me sick (turn to any page to read about harm being done to animals and children, women being assaulted, excessive descriptions of possession, demon-worship, occultism, and drug use); CSIO, by comparison, is an imaginative but joyous showcase of everything in OD&D and the supplements.
1. I agree. Though in VHs defense, its main goal is not to be complete, it's to be easy to use at the table. 2. True. 3. I respect that the 'Gutterpunk Gothic' aesthetic isn't for you, though it is something that I enjoy. Also, I'm seeing frequent references demon-worship, occultism, and drug use, but not any of the others you mentioned. Could I get some page numbers? |
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 9, 2014 15:18:42 GMT -6
- CSIO is actually fleshed out, its map keyed (and almost every key contains an actual adventure hook), whereas VH seems to rely on random tables for generation on the fly;
- CSIO’s map is a thousand times more attractive and usable
With respect, I think that misses that point. There's a great Save or Die podcast where Zak (may I call him that, without the 'S'?) explains the purpose behind his design choices. And I think he also does so in the Introduction to Vornheim. The argument is that any satisfying city that is completely or even semi-completely described and planned out beforehand is going to require a massive amount of information, not only written down, but for the GM to absorb (or at least that's how many GM's feel when confronted by something as detailed as, say, CSIO), and then the players will probably only be using a fraction of it. This is much more true than for, say, a dungeon adventure even if the adventure is non-linear. So the idea is to design a system that for much of a city (though not all of it) allows the GM as well as the players to sort of discover or organically create the city through play. The Sandbox as city, I suppose. Now, I also think CSIO is great, and I don't think even Zak would agree that CSIO is necessarily too difficult to run. But his original set of mechanisms offer useful and certainly original solutions to what are certainly at least potential problems with city adventures. 3.. VH has the “weirdness” turned up to 12; it’s just not my style; the drawings are intentionally crude; the buildings are excessively baroque and “punk” (think Planescape), and the writing is absolutely saturated with a macabre mood that makes me sick... The "gothic" thing is sort of to my taste (from a removed aesthetic point of view, so to speak, not as something I'd want to play with my children) and sort of not. But you can always turn the dial down. And part of Zak's point is that the mechanisms he proposes are background-neutral. I think if I used a city like Vornheim as written, or close to as written, it would be a sort of sinister world one visited temporarily through a magical door or pool or some such-sort of like Charn in the Magician's Nephew. CSIO, by comparison, is an imaginative but joyous showcase of everything in OD&D and the supplements. Other than the "by comparison" part, I agree with that completely, and I think "joyous" is a great way of putting it. |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 9, 2014 15:40:10 GMT -6
3. I respect that the 'Gutterpunk Gothic' aesthetic isn't for you, though it is something that I enjoy. Also, I'm seeing frequent references demon-worship, occultism, and drug use, but not any of the others you mentioned. Could I get some page numbers? Try doing a search for "assault" in the PDF. For the others, I’d have to download it again and find them. To say they are on every page is obviously hyperbole, but that’s the sort of thing that stared out at me. oakesspalding> I respect your criticisms of my criticisms. I realize my sense of taste is highly personal. Midkemia Cities is probably a better comparison than CSIO, but it goes too far in the opposite direction from VH for my taste (bland and serious). Anyway, CSIO is my go-to city book, the gold standard IMO, so the obvious thing to which to compare VH, for me. But I think it’s fair to say that CSIO is more modular — more useful to the average “judge” — simply because it doesn’t stray from the usual D&D assumptions (although it has a BIT of old school gonzo!). Perhaps VH is closer to the LotFP assumptions? |
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Post by oakesspalding on Jul 9, 2014 16:04:01 GMT -6
Perhaps VH is closer to the LotFP assumptions? Oh totally, and I too would not want to permanently run or play in such a world. But I can appreciate the angle and would consider using it for a "visit". As for the "Gonzo" elements of CSIO, when I was 16 or so, I methodically went through the guidebook, changing most of the belly dancers and fish merchants that were really Ogres or gods or 9th level Magic-Users or whatever, into "0-levels", under the influence of the "Gygaxian Naturalism" of the Dungeon Master's Guide. After all, wouldn't that be more realistic (and also, as I saw it, give the player-characters a better chance of surviving a trip to the corner grocery)? Now, as a middle-aged reconvert to OD&D, I believe that a sort of Gonzo attitude (in moderation of course) is part of the essence of the fun-as you so appropriately identified. And obviously I'm sorry that I defaced my book. As I understand it, one of the modern redo's of CSIO (by Mayfair, perhaps?) sort of did the same thing. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 16:20:25 GMT -6
Guys, my G+ feed is already infected with this... Can we just accept that anyone has the right to buy or not buy a product for whatever reason? I feel like I started this because I gave an opinion about what I thought a fair price is. Scalydemon countered with his own opinion, and motivated it when prompted. All fair and square. Let's not make a conflict where none is warranted. I asked a simple question, innocent of the man's feelings about the product. Respectfully, people shouldn't be afraid of friendly conversation. If you'll read my reply I'm sure you'll see I said nothing to give offense to a reasonable person. I'm truly sorry he is upset and decided to depart the forum, but since the entire idea of a forum is to promulgate discussion I will not agree to not ask questions or respond to people. I honestly didn't know this was such a powder keg issue. I don't really follow the gossip side of the hobby. |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2014 17:43:09 GMT -6
Just seems to me a shallow reason for rejecting a game supplement, especially a free one.
Hell, I paid money for RPGPundit's game*, and while I think he's a paranoid loon I'm not afraid I'll get cooties from opening the PDFs.
*Someone (maybe Jeff Rients) highly recommended Forward To Adventure! and at the time I didn't know about the extent of Pundit's story-game moonbattery. And they're PDFs so I can't re-sell 'em.
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 9, 2014 17:56:42 GMT -6
I like both the City-State of the Invincible Overlord and Vornheim. I also like Krshal. |
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Post by Falconer on Jul 9, 2014 18:31:14 GMT -6
Just seems to me a shallow reason for rejecting a game supplement, especially a free one. I didn’t reject it, I downloaded it and reviewed it. |
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Post by kent on Jul 9, 2014 19:08:42 GMT -6
Zak Smith or S or whatever he calls himself is a nutjob, a self-obsessed hysterical shrieking repetitive bore. Latest Shriek.His city book is crap. There are several people here who think that if you are a nutbag that makes the material you publish immune from criticism. It doesn't. |
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tog
Level 4 Theurgist
Detect Meal & What Kind
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Post by tog on Jul 9, 2014 19:50:03 GMT -6
I didn’t reject it, I downloaded it and reviewed it. T'wasn't referring to you as such; at least you appear to be willing to look at the product itself and judge it apart from the author. Zak says in the introduction that it's basically his own reference work; if you happen to dislike Planescape Dark Gothic that's fine with me. It's like turning down free pie - I can see if you don't like strawberry rhubarb, but to fret and snark about how the cook dresses is, shall I say, a bit petty. |
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Post by kent on Jul 9, 2014 20:25:45 GMT -6
I didn’t reject it, I downloaded it and reviewed it. T'wasn't referring to you as such; at least you appear to be willing to look at the product itself and judge it apart from the author. Zak says in the introduction that it's basically his own reference work; if you happen to dislike Planescape Dark Gothic that's fine with me. It's like turning down free pie - I can see if you don't like strawberry rhubarb, but to fret and snark about how the cook dresses is, shall I say, a bit petty. Look princess, your metaphors are excruciating and illogical. In this world, which is the real world, no-one needs your permission to give their judgement. |
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