Klytus, I'm bored.

[riftstone]

Gronan, not sure you saw this one but I was curious. How did variable weapon damage and larger ability score bonuses change the game? Or did they? (Asking mostly about the Greyhawk supplement)

[Deleted]

Must have missed this one.

Well, ability bonuses... that really wasn't noticeable until later. Basically, it's made a whole bunch of players into whiny little crybabies who pout if they don't have big numbers. Somebody on another forum actually said they'd suicide a character that didn't have any 18s.

Interestingly, I played a Star Wars d20 game for 3 years. I had the lowest stats of anybody... I had ONE stat over 12. And at the end of the game, I was the most badass Jedi in the galaxy, because I PLAYED like the most badass Jedi in the galaxy. Play trumps stats.

Variable weapon damage... since nobody, but nobody, used weapon vs. armor type, it meant that fighters all used swords, which is OK because it emulates sword & sorcery literature.

The BIGGER change is multiple attacks per monster. It turns low level play into a friggin' bloodbath. I dropped that in my latest game just like I dropped variable weapon damage. I'd like first level characters to survive by more than sheer luck, and when a stinking LIZARD MAN does 1-3 claw, 1-8 bite, 1st level PCs are in deep trouble.

[riftstone]

Thanks for the reply! This response is awesome.

[Merctime]

Oct 29, 2014 10:45:22 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Must have missed this one.

Well, ability bonuses... that really wasn't noticeable until later. Basically, it's made a whole bunch of players into whiny little crybabies who pout if they don't have big numbers. Somebody on another forum actually said they'd suicide a character that didn't have any 18s.

Interestingly, I played a Star Wars d20 game for 3 years. I had the lowest stats of anybody... I had ONE stat over 12. And at the end of the game, I was the most badass Jedi in the galaxy, because I PLAYED like the most badass Jedi in the galaxy. Play trumps stats.

Variable weapon damage... since nobody, but nobody, used weapon vs. armor type, it meant that fighters all used swords, which is OK because it emulates sword & sorcery literature.

The BIGGER change is multiple attacks per monster. It turns low level play into a friggin' bloodbath. I dropped that in my latest game just like I dropped variable weapon damage. I'd like first level characters to survive by more than sheer luck, and when a stinking LIZARD MAN does 1-3 claw, 1-8 bite, 1st level PCs are in deep trouble.

This post is simply full of WIN. On so many levels.

-Man, I used to just hate when players would cuss and moan when I ruled that no stat roll counted unless I witnessed it. But you know what? After a few weeks, those same friends of mine would actually realize that they had just as much fun with a guy that had one 15.

-What you say about your star wars game... Man, that's the type of stuff that separates the Men from the boys!!!

Like riftstone, I think this is just a fantastic answer.

[scottyg]

Gronan, lots of talk about your playing career. How about as a DM? What kind of campaign are you running these days, a big ol' dungeon, smaller, episodic adventures?
Also, what are the highest levels the PCs in your game have reached?

[Red Baron]

Did any of your characters die in Gary  or Dave's games? How did they kick the bucket?

[Deleted]

Do you know any of the history of the 10' pole before it found its way to the basic equipment listing in Men & Magic?

I'm unaware of a precedent for a "ten foot pole" outside of the popular expression.

I'm hoping it was recognized as a good idea after something in a dungeon evoked that reaction. :-)

[geoffrey]

Michael, page 7 of Men & Magic includes the following note about clerics: "[T]hey have the use of magic armor and all non-edged magic weapons (no arrows!)..."

Back in your D&D games pre-1977, which of the following was true:

A. Clerics cannot used any edged weapons, period.
B. Clerics can use non-magical edged weapons.

[Deleted]

A.

[aldarron]

Hey Michael,

So I've seen a couple of critical hit rules used back in the day, but I haven't seen mention of a fumble rule. Do you recall any use of a fumble rule by Gygax or Arneson from early D&D, or is there a rule you like to use?

[Deleted]

I don't recall Dave using a fumble rule. Gary HATED!!! critical hit rules and fumble rules too.

I honestly don't recall if we had a homebrew fumble rule. Considering all the rules we came up with and then discarded, it's likely. Our two weapon fighting rules were three or four pages, and we junked them utterly after a few months.

And then Runequest came along with its fumble rules that gave a non-zero chance of cutting your own head off.

[Scott Anderson]

Based on what I've read of Dave Arneson seems reasonable that Dave spoke the way he wrote. But did Gary speak the way he wrote?

[Deleted]

Nope.

[Starbeard]

Hi Michael, thanks for all these great responses,

How were resurrections handled in the different campaigns, and often did characters get resurrected?

Actually, as a related question: was it ever allowable for players to roll up the same character again after dying (but at level 1, obviously)? Did anyone care if you rolled up a Fighting-Man character and give him the same name as your last Fighting-Man, or was each character supposed to have a permanent and unique legacy?

Cheers!

[geoffrey]

Feb 7, 2015 16:48:17 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

How were resurrections handled in the difference campaigns, and often did characters get resurrected?

A related question, if I may: How often did the PCs get a hold of wishes, for what did they typically wish, and how often did the referee twist the wording of wishes?

[Deleted]

According to Bill Hoyt, there were no resurrections in Blackmoor, period.

Gronan was resurrected either once or twice. Most characters died a time or two, or occasionally died permanently. We liked solo play, and one of the great hazards of true solo play... the PC alone, no henchmen, hirelings, etc... is that a TPK requires only one death.

Wishes... well, a couple people got bit by "greedy wishes," but word traveled fast. Using a wish to get back what you lost was pretty safe if you were moderately careful about what you asked for. In my Minneapolis group we eventually reached a gentlecreature's agreement that a restorative wish... that is, getting back things lost... could be described in vague terms without fear. This after we all demonstrated yeah, we can make a three page long text for a wish that's ironclad, but that stops being fun in a big hurry.

[Scott Anderson]

Michael, how big a deal were intelligent swords in the games of FFC and D&D? Did they come up a lot? What were they like?

[Red Baron]

Feb 19, 2015 12:02:15 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

Michael, how big a deal were intelligent swords in the games of FFC and D&D? Did they come up a lot? What were they like?

More generally, what magic weaponry did you find?

Did the type of magic items you found differ in Dave and Gary's games?

[geoffrey]

Mike, a two-part question if I may:

1. Roughly speaking, what percentage of PCs in your old games were humans (as opposed to dwarves, elves, etc.)?

2. Were there very many PC hobbits?

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2015 12:02:15 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

Michael, how big a deal were intelligent swords in the games of FFC and D&D? Did they come up a lot? What were they like?

I never encountered one.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2015 14:10:02 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Feb 19, 2015 12:02:15 GMT -6 Scott Anderson said:

Michael, how big a deal were intelligent swords in the games of FFC and D&D? Did they come up a lot? What were they like?

More generally, what magic weaponry did you find?

Did the type of magic items you found differ in Dave and Gary's games?

Magic of any type was extremely rare in Blackmoor. In Greyhawk, I had +1 armor, a +2 shield, a trollbane sword, a ring of invisibility and an ESP medallion, at 8th or 9th level.

[Deleted]

Feb 20, 2015 22:48:40 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Mike, a two-part question if I may:

1. Roughly speaking, what percentage of PCs in your old games were humans (as opposed to dwarves, elves, etc.)?

2. Were there very many PC hobbits?

1) Almost entirely human. Mary Dale played an elf but I think she was the only one for quite a while.

2) Zero.

[geoffrey]

Michael, you mentioned the following in this thread: odd74.proboards.com/thread/10828/experience-required-continued-advancement?page=1&scrollTo=161241

I'll tell you how Gary actually played it; after name level, each additional level was the cost of originally getting to name level.

a 9th level Patriarch needed 100,000 XP to get from 8th to 9th level, and an additional 100,00 if they wanted to go from 9th to 10th, etc.

A 10th level Lord needed 240,000 XP to get from 9th to 10th level, and an additional 240,000 XP per level.

An 11th level Wizard needed 300,000 XP to get from 11th to 12th level, then an additional 300,000 XP per level.

Combine this with XP from gold, and dividing the monster level by your level... that is, a 9th level Lord killing some trolls would get only 2/3 XP per gold piece (troll level/lord level, 6/9, 2/3) ... and you see that advancement, though not technically capped, effectively grinds to a halt. You start to need millions of gold to level up.

Considering that advancement pretty much halted, what did you guys do with the 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells found in Supplement I: GREYHAWK? Were those spells pretty much left in the hands of NPCs?

[Deleted]

Well, if you didn't get to a high enough level, you didn't get to a high enough level. Robilar got to 14th level, after all, so it's not like nobody advanced at all. But it took a LOT of play, and mostly solo adventuring.

[geoffrey]

Michael, in AD&D a 1-minute round is divided into ten 6-second segments. A spell might take, for example, 7 segments to cast. The use of segments can affect who acts first.

Did Gary use segments in his Greyhawk campaign, or are segments (like weapon speeds) something he ignored while refereeing?

[Deleted]

I stopped playing with Gary before AD&D came out, so I can't authoritatively answer this. I personally never adopted AD&D, I just tore off bits I like and used them.

[Starbeard]

Michael, I think I remember you mentioning before that Dave would use miniatures for Blackmoor, while Gary almost never did for Greyhawk (maybe I'm mixing that up?).

Anyway, I've been wondering why this might be. Was it because one of them typically put fewer monsters into each encounter? Did this also affect how much attention each one paid to things like initiative/action/spell order, keeping track of distance and who's able to fight whom, or how many hit points each individual monster has? My guess is that whoever used miniatures more often would have also been more active in record keeping minutiae of combats, but I realize that's not necessarily the case.

[Deleted]

No idea. The only thing I can definitively say is that Gary's study was very very small. I don't know if that influenced his decision to not use miniatures.

[Zenopus]

Gronan, over on Chirine's Workbench he posted a picture of one of Dave Arneson's early minis. It's another one of the plastic monsters from the same 'Prehistoric Animal' set as the Rust Monster & Land Shark/Bulette. Do you recognize this one or remember if Dave used it for any particular D&D monster?

chirinesworkbench.blogspot.com/2015/05/memories-on-memorial-day-2015.html

[riftstone]

Another little question about variable weapon damage, just for my curiosity. Do you know the reason for having different damage for small/medium opponents and for large opponent?

I always found it odd in AD&D that an Ogre would do 1-10 damage but most PC's would do 1-12 or 3-18 vs the Ogre.