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Post by Stormcrow on Aug 28, 2014 16:31:36 GMT -6
his NPCs were greedy and opportunisitc to a fault. So, basically the same as your typical player characters, then. |
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Post by cadriel on Aug 28, 2014 17:35:29 GMT -6
We never did undermining, no. If barracading stuff were available, sure. We fought as a close order infantry squad. Fireballs weren't that much of a worry because not that many critters have area effect attacks, and in the dungeon ranges are so short that a thrown spear might reach a magic user before he got his spell off (or a light crossbow was also cool!) Anchoring your flanks was absolutely vital; you didn't want bad guys to get to the magic users. But magic users couldn't throw spells from the second rank, so it was an interesting challenge. Also, spears or polearms in the second rank is a great thing. More questions about this? You say it was an "interesting challenge" to get wizards to throw spells; how did you solve it? What I'm trying to picture is ways where having a group of wargamers made combat different from how people who cut their teeth as roleplayers tend to do. Did you have people going ahead for recon or was it essentially "reconnaisance in force"? When you decided to fight, did you take measures other than initial missile fire or spells? Did you ever manage to use the dungeon environment against the monsters, like trapping them in rooms or corridors? |
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Post by oakesspalding on Aug 28, 2014 18:47:40 GMT -6
1. I know most OSR people seem to like it, but the spear in the second rank thing never really made sense for me. I always imagined melee in a dungeon to be too fluid and "dirty" to really have ranks.
2. Thank you for your commentary, Michael. I've always found it to be one of the best things about the OD&D Discussion board. You've probably already answered this somewhere, but if it's not took difficult, can you briefly explain in what years you played with Gary, Dave, M.A.R. (what did his friends call him?) and the rest?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 19:43:59 GMT -6
More questions about this? You say it was an "interesting challenge" to get wizards to throw spells; how did you solve it? What I'm trying to picture is ways where having a group of wargamers made combat different from how people who cut their teeth as roleplayers tend to do. Did you have people going ahead for recon or was it essentially "reconnaisance in force"? When you decided to fight, did you take measures other than initial missile fire or spells? Did you ever manage to use the dungeon environment against the monsters, like trapping them in rooms or corridors? We would tell the wizards to get ready; one round, swap places with somebody in the front rank, second round throw spell, third round swap places back. Or if the wizard could get up higher, great. Or a dwarf in the front rank, partial hard cover! We tended to reconnaisance in force. And we would use stuff like tables as barracades, flaming oil pools to cut off paths of attack, wedge ourselves in narrow spots, etc. We tried our hardest to avoid getting flanked, which I think is a wargamer thing. IN most wargames a flanked unit is in deep, deep trouble. And we tended to not try to trap enemies; we wanted the treasure, not blood, and as Sun Tzu says, when the enemy is trapped without retreat that is when they are the most dangerous. Against one large single stupid opponent like a giant lizard or spider we'd surround and try to gang up. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2014 19:46:18 GMT -6
1. I know most OSR people seem to like it, but the spear in the second rank thing never really made sense for me. I always imagined melee in a dungeon to be too fluid and "dirty" to really have ranks. The way we played it, if you broke ranks you'd get flanked and/or surrounded. This is a wargamer thing. If you're in a formation and your enemies aren't it gives you a huge advantage. We worked hard to stay in formation. 2. Thank you for your commentary, Michael. I've always found it to be one of the best things about the OD&D Discussion board. You've probably already answered this somewhere, but if it's not took difficult, can you briefly explain in what years you played with Gary, Dave, M.A.R. (what did his friends call him?) and the rest? Prof. Barker was "Phil" in informal conversation. Gary and Rob... 1972 to oh, 1977 or 1978 Phil... 1974 to 1986 or so Dave... 1973-1975 |
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Post by cadriel on Aug 29, 2014 8:08:49 GMT -6
We would tell the wizards to get ready; one round, swap places with somebody in the front rank, second round throw spell, third round swap places back. Or if the wizard could get up higher, great. Or a dwarf in the front rank, partial hard cover! We tended to reconnaisance in force. And we would use stuff like tables as barracades, flaming oil pools to cut off paths of attack, wedge ourselves in narrow spots, etc. We tried our hardest to avoid getting flanked, which I think is a wargamer thing. IN most wargames a flanked unit is in deep, deep trouble. And we tended to not try to trap enemies; we wanted the treasure, not blood, and as Sun Tzu says, when the enemy is trapped without retreat that is when they are the most dangerous. Against one large single stupid opponent like a giant lizard or spider we'd surround and try to gang up. Excellent, that really helps just in terms of getting the picture of how your combats went. Were the monster tactics parallel to the ones the players used? Also - you talk about "stupid opponents" - were there differences in how certain monsters were played? Any particularly good examples? |
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Post by mgtremaine on Aug 29, 2014 8:14:05 GMT -6
I'll just comment that Spear in the second rank is brutal in "real life". I did some SCA years ago and the most common way I died was getting hit by the spear from the second rank while fighting in the shield wall. The front line is where all the crazy action is going on the second rank has time to pick targets and really hit them. It's quiet a feeling to be struggling with shield and sword against your foe just to have a spear head come out of nowhere and knock you in the helmet.
-Mike
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Post by scottyg on Aug 29, 2014 21:23:55 GMT -6
Do you prefer playing with or without minis? Do you feel that their use has a significant affect on the way combats are run, adjudicating flanking maneuvers and such?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 15:52:00 GMT -6
Excellent, that really helps just in terms of getting the picture of how your combats went. Were the monster tactics parallel to the ones the players used? Also - you talk about "stupid opponents" - were there differences in how certain monsters were played? Any particularly good examples? Well, something like a giant lizard or scorpion would be "reactive" -- 'who it attacks' would be just a die roll, they wouldn't necessarily move to avoid getting surrounded, they could be distracted from pursuit by food, etc. Intelligent opponents would be more, um, intelligent. Just like someplace is a rule that if you don't wear a helm with your plate armor, intelligent opponents will go for the gooshy part. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2014 15:57:38 GMT -6
Do you prefer playing with or without minis? Do you feel that their use has a significant affect on the way combats are run, adjudicating flanking maneuvers and such? Complicated question. I like using minis for "marching order." As referee it makes it easy to see who is where and doing what, and who gets attacked when surprised. I hate using minis and a battlemat or other surface. It totally stops the game and you go from "playing a RPG" to "playing a miniatures game." This applies to every game I've played that way, from D&D with dungeon tiles and minis to TFT to Star Wars d20. |
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Post by geoffrey on Aug 30, 2014 21:04:23 GMT -6
I hate using minis and a battlemat or other surface. It totally stops the game and you go from "playing a RPG" to "playing a miniatures game." This applies to every game I've played that way, from D&D with dungeon tiles and minis to TFT to Star Wars d20. This is my experience as well. The game gets sucked out of Fantasy Land and lands on your table, with the miniatures dutifully moved around with all the alacrity of tokens in a Monopoly game. ("Let's see, I can move 6 squares. One [hop], two [hop], three [hop], four [hop]..."  ) |
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Post by talysman on Aug 31, 2014 1:00:25 GMT -6
Do you prefer playing with or without minis? Do you feel that their use has a significant affect on the way combats are run, adjudicating flanking maneuvers and such? Complicated question. I like using minis for "marching order." As referee it makes it easy to see who is where and doing what, and who gets attacked when surprised. I hate using minis and a battlemat or other surface. It totally stops the game and you go from "playing a RPG" to "playing a miniatures game." This applies to every game I've played that way, from D&D with dungeon tiles and minis to TFT to Star Wars d20. I totally understand this objection -- I cite my experience with the otherwise fine game The Fantasy Trip as a reason why I know I wouldn't like playing D&D with a battlemap or grid. But that does point to a glaring omission: I don't think anyone has asked you about how you played The Fantasy Trip back in the day, either. Here's an obvious follow-up to your minis answer: After trying out The Fantasy Trip as written and discovering that TFT combat brings the roleplaying to a screeching halt, did you change it? Did you start playing it using the simplified gridless Melee rules? Or did you just stop playing it as an RPG and only use it as an arena-style fantasy boardgame? And when playing TFT as an RPG, did you use any of the Advanced Melee/Wizard material, or just stick to In the Labyrinth and the original Melee/Wizard? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 1:13:42 GMT -6
I never reffed The Fantasy Trip, I was just a player. The ref used the grid and markers as-written. His game, his rules.
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 1, 2014 13:46:00 GMT -6
How about dragon subdual & sales? Reading the rules for it in the Monster Manual, I always wondered it that was that something that actually happened with any kind of frequency...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 15:22:09 GMT -6
As often as we could manage... I remember 1 or 2. With six or eight 6th to 8th level players if you manage to find one sleeping it's pretty easy.
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 1, 2014 20:43:41 GMT -6
So then were they keepers or were they captured to be sold?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 22:56:57 GMT -6
Both. Since you need buckets of gold to level up we sold a lot, but we also kept some.
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Post by ragnorakk on Sept 2, 2014 8:31:53 GMT -6
Where the heck does one sell a dragon?? Probably not in some village monthly market faire... Was it more like selling magic items - taking to some weird shady wizard and letting them know you had something of interest, or was it something just assumed to happen without being played out? Hope I'm not bugging you with too many questions here.  |
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Post by kirbyfan63 on Sept 2, 2014 12:51:16 GMT -6
Anchoring your flanks was absolutely vital; you didn't want bad guys to get to the magic users. But magic users couldn't throw spells from the second rank, so it was an interesting challenge. How come magic users couldn't throw spells from the second row. Was that for attack spells like fireball and lightning bolt or did it apply to things like sleep and hold person. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 14:32:13 GMT -6
How come magic users couldn't throw spells from the second row. Was that for attack spells like fireball and lightning bolt or did it apply to things like sleep and hold person. All spells. It's a play balance thing primarily. |
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Post by riftstone on Sept 2, 2014 15:39:39 GMT -6
When you found thousands of gold pieces, how did you get it out of the dungeon? Porters and such? Or just grab all you can and leave the rest? I assume if you left any, other scavengers would take it or another monster would make it their home.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 15:53:59 GMT -6
A magic user with a reasonable strength can carry quite a lot before he's as slow as a plate armored fighter. When you have nine members in a party it's amazing what you can carry. We gave priority to magic, then jewelry, gems, gold, silver, copper. And yes, sometimes we did have to leave stuff behind and it would be gone. Also, bags of holding are very valuable. By the time you're finding multiple thousands of gold you probably have one.
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Post by riftstone on Sept 2, 2014 17:42:57 GMT -6
One more! How did variable weapon damage and larger ability score bonuses change the game? Or did they? (Asking mostly about the Greyhawk supplement) |
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Post by machpants on Sept 2, 2014 23:17:20 GMT -6
How come magic users couldn't throw spells from the second row. Was that for attack spells like fireball and lightning bolt or did it apply to things like sleep and hold person. All spells. It's a play balance thing primarily. Wow that would make the game very different, if you have to have no one in between yourself and the target when casting a spell |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 1:39:42 GMT -6
No, it makes the game very different if you allow magic users to throw spells through obstacles. The rules as developed did NOT allow this, just like CHAINMAIL doesn't let you fire missiles into a melee and does not allow direct fire weapons to do indirect fire. (I'm being funny about the order the rules were written in.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 8:35:49 GMT -6
Where the heck does one sell a dragon?? Probably not in some village monthly market faire... Was it more like selling magic items - taking to some weird shady wizard and letting them know you had something of interest, or was it something just assumed to happen without being played out? In the pages of the playtest version Gronan supplied to Jon Peterson, it says this: "Walled towns will have all standard items for sale, some unusual ones, and a dragon market in which to sell your catch." Not sure if that is more from Dave or Gary although I'd probably bet on Dave. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 22:31:47 GMT -6
Where the heck does one sell a dragon?? Probably not in some village monthly market faire... Was it more like selling magic items - taking to some weird shady wizard and letting them know you had something of interest, or was it something just assumed to happen without being played out? In the pages of the playtest version Gronan supplied to Jon Peterson, it says this: "Walled towns will have all standard items for sale, some unusual ones, and a dragon market in which to sell your catch." Not sure if that is more from Dave or Gary although I'd probably bet on Dave. Correct. Sorry, I missed ragnorakk's question earlier. But selling dragons was no problem. |
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Post by kesher on Sept 4, 2014 6:02:43 GMT -6
"Selling dragons was no problem."
Awesome.
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Post by Stormcrow on Sept 4, 2014 7:57:26 GMT -6
I can just imagine a random encounter in town: a dragon in the dragon market gets loose and goes on a rampage.
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Post by thorswulf on Sept 4, 2014 13:36:18 GMT -6
Or hunts down the characters who sold it if they are still in town!
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