Klytus, I'm bored.

[Deleted]

Jun 24, 2014 13:34:10 GMT -6 cadriel said:

Go (Chinese: wei ch'i) is a game played with black and white stones on a 19x19 grid. Shogi is a Japanese descendant of chaturanga, the Indian game that eventually became chess, played with tiles on a rectangular 9x9 grid. Wei ch'i / Go originated in China, Shogi was developed in Japan. Japan is the center of the Go world, and it is Japanese Go players who are usually the masters of the game.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi

I never said I didn't know what Go is.

What I'm saying is that Gary spoke of his enjoyment of Shogi often, but I never heard him mention Go.

[cadriel]

Jun 24, 2014 13:37:55 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I never said I didn't know what Go is.

What I'm saying is that Gary spoke of his enjoyment of Shogi often, but I never heard him mention Go.

That's fine, I wasn't correcting you. geoffrey said his memory was hazy. I was providing a refresher for his benefit.

[Deleted]

That's fine, I wasn't correcting you. geoffrey said his memory was hazy. I was providing a refresher for his benefit.

Okay, I see where you're coming from. Somehow I overlooked Geoffrey's remark.

I'm sure most folks know this already, but EGG liked Chess and its variants. I built a tridee chess set, the one from Star Trek, once upon a time. I really wanted to build a Dragon Chess table, too. That is, until I figured up the cost of obtaining all the miniatures, plus the time needed to paint them, etc.

[Deleted]

I'm trying to remember if Gary ever actually played jetan, or just said he wanted to.

[Red Baron]

Do you know the name of the rules Professor Barker wrote for siege warfare?

I can't seem to track anything down on them.

[Deleted]

I don't know if any copies existed other than his one original manuscript of some 300 pages. I think it was called something like "The art of siege". Or somesuch. It's been over 35 years, sorry.

[cadriel]

Did you play much Diplomacy? Jon Peterson's history made a fairly big deal out of Diplomacy variants and postal games as partial predecessors of D&D. Was any of that still going on when you were gaming with Gary and co, and if so, any memorable bits?

[Merctime]

I've got more than a passing interest in cadriel's question, above, myself! Also, wondering if other war-type boardgames made it into the mass combat play during your time, Mr. Mornard? Nice to meet you, by the way... My name's Tim.

[Deleted]

I played a bit of Diplomacy. More importantly, though, Gary and some of the others played a LOT. It shows in the role playing system of OD&D. There are those who say "there was no role playing in OD&D because there are no rules for DIPLOMACY or BLUFF or INTIMIDATE," etc. But in fact it was full of role playing and negotiation, just like Diplomacy. And like Diplomacy, if you wanted to Bluff, you BLUFFED. If you wanted to make a deal, you MADE A DEAL. Et cetera.

[archersix]

Aug 7, 2014 16:17:14 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

But in fact it was full of role playing and negotiation, just like Diplomacy. And like Diplomacy, if you wanted to Bluff, you BLUFFED. If you wanted to make a deal, you MADE A DEAL. Et cetera.

Exactly! That's what bugs me about new editions more than anything. It's called Role Playing because you act it out! When I run a newer game (getting to be less and less these days), I never roll those skills, you just act it out.

[coffee]

Even when I was running more recent games (okay, 2nd ed, but still...), I never relied solely on a skill. You still had to tell me what you were doing, or trying.

Where the skill helped was with the players who knew what the character was trying, but weren't able to do it in the real world. If I give a rousing speech, it probably won't rouse someone as much as if my character, who has an 18 Charisma and Diplomacy skill, gave such a speech. So I don't penalize the player for not being able to do it as well.

But he at least has to make the attempt; he has to give me something to go on. A die roll alone simply won't cut it.

(And I realize that this can be done without 2e's 'non-weapon proficiencies', but I had them so I figured I'd use them.)

[Stormcrow]

And this, Gentle Reader, is the point of ability scores. You determine the measure of your character with them, and then proceed to do anything you want to do. The referee will tell you if you've overstepped the abilities of your character, otherwise you just do it.

[aldarron]

Hey Mike,

Was Dave Fant in your Blackmoor playing group? I'm trying to get some idea of when his character was turned into a vampire.

[Deleted]

Long before I moved up to Minneapolis in 1973. Find Greg Swenson, he lurks online.

[geoffrey]

Aug 7, 2014 16:17:14 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I played a bit of Diplomacy. More importantly, though, Gary and some of the others played a LOT. It shows in the role playing system of OD&D. There are those who say "there was no role playing in OD&D because there are no rules for DIPLOMACY or BLUFF or INTIMIDATE," etc. But in fact it was full of role playing and negotiation, just like Diplomacy. And like Diplomacy, if you wanted to Bluff, you BLUFFED. If you wanted to make a deal, you MADE A DEAL. Et cetera.

Excellent post. I kind of feel sorry for players of the newer editions.

[Deleted]

I feel sorry until they start telling me how I'm "wrong" for playing OD&D or it's only due to "nostalgia."

Then I want to hit them with my axe on top of the head so hard they poop their own livers.

[oakesspalding]

Okay, so I watched the first part of the 1980 Flash Gordon movie with my kids here.

Don't kill me Finarvyn if it's illegal. I don't think it is.

Great movie. But most importantly, the first three words of the film are...

Now I understand.

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

So, anybody got more stuff they want to ask?

[scottyg]

Did you ever make it to the City of the Gods in Dave's game?

[Deleted]

Not in its original format, but I did help playtest the revised version in the mid 80s.

[Deleted]

Did you encounter many dragons within either Gary or Dave's dungeons? If so do you recall the type most encountered or age/size of those encounters?
Also, approximately what was the lowest level you recall descending to in either Gary of Dave's dungeons?

[Deleted]

I think I got down to about the 8th level or so. For dragons we went to the mountains, where we found mostly red dragons.

[cadriel]

Did you have any intelligent swords, or see anything interesting from how Gary or Dave ran them for other players? Was it ever a Stormbringer-type situation where the sword had its own will and ideas of what to do?

[Deleted]

I never did, no. Part of me wishes I had and part of me was glad I didn't. Gary's NPCs were real bastards, I hate to think what a high-ego sword would have been like.

[riftstone]

Aug 27, 2014 8:56:46 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Gary's NPCs were real bastards

I actually would like to hear more about this. Was this everybody, or just NPCs met dungeons?

[cadriel]

I'd really like to get a good picture of the kind of tactics you used when fighting in the dungeon. Specifically, do you remember anything about formations, choice of terrain, or variations on siege tactics? That is, were you able to build barricades or traps or undermine rooms, or did it never get that elaborate?

[machpants]

Aug 27, 2014 8:56:46 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I never did, no. Part of me wishes I had and part of me was glad I didn't. Gary's NPCs were real bastards, I hate to think what a high-ego sword would have been like.

Can you give us a bastard-ness anecdote?

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2014 17:05:27 GMT -6 riftstone said:

Aug 27, 2014 8:56:46 GMT -6 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Gary's NPCs were real bastards

I actually would like to hear more about this. Was this everybody, or just NPCs met dungeons?

Pretty much everybody. If you search online you can find Gary's story "The Magician's Ring." "Lessnard" is me, and yeah, that happened. That was pretty typical... his NPCs were greedy and opportunisitc to a fault.

Then you had more mundane stuff like blacksmiths covering swords with luminous paint and selling them as magic swords, and "angry villagers" keeping you from getting your money back.

Truthfully, his NPCs went beyond "will screw you if it profits them" to "will screw you unless not doing so profits them a lot."

[Deleted]

Aug 27, 2014 18:58:15 GMT -6 cadriel said:

I'd really like to get a good picture of the kind of tactics you used when fighting in the dungeon. Specifically, do you remember anything about formations, choice of terrain, or variations on siege tactics? That is, were you able to build barricades or traps or undermine rooms, or did it never get that elaborate?

We never did undermining, no. If barracading stuff were available, sure.

We fought as a close order infantry squad. Fireballs weren't that much of a worry because not that many critters have area effect attacks, and in the dungeon ranges are so short that a thrown spear might reach a magic user before he got his spell off (or a light crossbow was also cool!)

Anchoring your flanks was absolutely vital; you didn't want bad guys to get to the magic users. But magic users couldn't throw spells from the second rank, so it was an interesting challenge.

Also, spears or polearms in the second rank is a great thing.

More questions about this?