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Post by Finarvyn on May 19, 2008 7:23:51 GMT -6
I often think that it would be so neat to see the old Judges' Guild First Fantasy Campaign Blackmoor book back in print, either as an exact reprint or a slightly reorganized version. And if not in print, maybe at least a legal PDF.
I know that Zeitgeist is doing all of the d20 Blackmoor stuff, but I'm thinking of more "at the roots" of Blackmoor and not a major upgrade, such as they have done.
So, the question I have is: who actually owns the rights to FFC? Is it Dave Arneson (author) or Judges' Guild (publisher) or Zeitgeist (Blackmoor now)? Anyone know?
Seems like if we don't know who actually owns the rights, there's no way to know who to try to persuade to get this back in print.
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Post by James Maliszewski on May 19, 2008 12:42:18 GMT -6
As I understand it, Wizards of the Coast owns most of the Blackmoor-specific IP, including proper names, like "Blackmoor." They own this as a result of inheriting all of TSR's legal properties and TSR itself owned them as a result of a variety of settlements with Arneson, including but not limited to whatever one created the new Blackmoor modules back in the mid to late 80s (they are copyrighted in TSR's name, not Arneson's). I also know that Zeitgeist produces its new Blackmoor materials under license from WotC.
So, my guess is that we'll never see a reprint of FFC because WotC owns the Blackmoor IP lock, stock, and barrel and they'll never surrender it, especially now that Hasbro owns them.
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Post by jcstephens on May 19, 2008 13:33:48 GMT -6
Unless Hasbro goes down the tubes, and whoever picks up the pieces decides to sell off the stuff in the attic.
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Post by Zulgyan on May 19, 2008 13:40:57 GMT -6
A re-release of FFC would be VERY welcomed!
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Post by dwayanu on May 19, 2008 19:00:50 GMT -6
I'd guess either Dave himself or whoever owns most of the other Judges Guild stuff. The latter might be Necromancer Games, or their reissues might be a licensing deal. (Sorry I've got only guesses!)
I don't own a copy anymore, but someone who does might look up the copyright in the old release.
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Post by James Maliszewski on May 19, 2008 19:04:04 GMT -6
I'd guess either Dave himself or whoever owns most of the other Judges Guild stuff. The latter might be Necromancer Games, or that might be a licensing deal. (Sorry I've got only guesses!) I think it's possible that the text of FFC, with the exception of the Blackmoor-specific names, might be owned either by Dave or by Judges Guild (which is to say, Bob Bledsaw's heirs), but it could never be republished without either changing the names or negotiating a deal with WotC for use of those names. A few years ago, I saw a list of all the proper names from Blackmoor that WotC claims copyright and/or trademark over and it's extensive -- so many that rewriting FFC without them would result in a completely different book IMO. |
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Post by dwayanu on May 19, 2008 19:23:15 GMT -6
Ah, the trademark issue ... because Dave eventually wrote some Blackmoor modules for TSR.
Yep, I'll bet WotC has "TM" slapped on every other word in those modules. I remember when TSR (in an Indiana Jones product, IIRC) tried to trademark Nazi. Of course, the wags observed that it was too bad we hadn't had TSR's lawyers on our side back in Herr Hitler's day!
What have they done to defend those trademarks? Isn't the rule "use it or lose it?" I'm thinking of how DC had to use "Shazam!" as the title when they decided to make use of Fawcett's original Captain Marvel -- after Marvel Comics had introduced a new character by that name.
If WotC is publishing those modules (e.g., via RPGNow), then I guess they've got a grip on the marbles.
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Post by James Maliszewski on May 19, 2008 19:39:53 GMT -6
What have they done to defend those trademarks? Isn't the rule "use it or lose it?" I'm thinking of how DC had to use "Shazam!" as the title when they decided to make use of Fawcett's original Captain Marvel -- after Marvel Comics had introduced a new character by that name. If WotC is publishing those modules (e.g., via RPGNow), then I guess they've got a grip on the marbles. They are indeed. More to the point, Zeitgeist explicitly acknowledges WotC's claim to the trademarks by accepting a licensing arrangement with them for their Blackmoor D20 products. I don't think, at this stage, that there's any reason to hope that we'll ever see a reissue of FFC. |
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Post by gsvenson on May 19, 2008 20:47:13 GMT -6
A couple of months ago I suggested to Dave Arneson that he release a PDF version of FFC. At the time, he thought that was a good idea and he immediately called Bob Bledsaw. His son answered and told us about his condition and we just kind of dropped the subject. I do not know for sure, but from Dave's response, I would take it that JG owns the rights to FFC.
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Post by dwayanu on May 19, 2008 20:53:58 GMT -6
This suggests to me troubling questions.
As I understand it, one purpose of copyright (and, more importantly, patent) law is to get the fruits of creativity eventually into the public domain. I think copyright duration now is author's life plus 50 years.
What if the "author" is a corporation? Are we in (or slipping into) a situation in which trademarks can be used to defeat that purpose?
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Post by geoffrey on May 19, 2008 20:54:20 GMT -6
I do not know for sure, but from Dave's response, I would take it that JG owns the rights to FFC. I hope that's the case. |
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Post by foster1941 on May 19, 2008 21:26:23 GMT -6
This suggests to me troubling questions. As I understand it, one purpose of copyright (and, more importantly, patent) law is to get the fruits of creativity eventually into the public domain. I think copyright duration now is author's life plus 50 years. What if the "author" is a corporation? Are we in (or slipping into) a situation in which trademarks can be used to defeat that purpose? In cases of "works for hire" current term of copyright is 95 years from date of publication. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2008 22:29:38 GMT -6
Hi all,
Just thought I'd drop in a quick note about this issue.
The rights to FFC are jointly and severally owned, due to the odd history of the Blackmoor property.
Wizards of the Coast owns certain trademarks and copyrights, and I'm sure have some ownership interest in the setting itself. These are licensed by Zeitgeist/Code Monkey.
Dave Arneson almost certainly has some ownership rights in the setting, and possibly co-ownership on some copyrights and trademarks; I'm not sure how that all worked out in the end. I know that Peter Adkison worked out some sort of deal with him and Gary on their various properties when Wizards first acquired TSR; they didn't have to do anything with them, but they did, because Peter was and remains a huge fan and a great guy. But what the mix of ownership rights are depends, I think, on the deal cut then.
Together with the rights licensed from Arneson and Wizards, Zeitgeist/Code Monkey can publish adapted Blackmoor products for 3E. Whether they are allowed to publish PDFs of previous versions I do not know; that may or may not be found in the contract, to which I am not privy.
That said, the exact expression of the FFC as originally published by Judges Guild is still co-owned by Judges Guild; it cannot be reproduced, even by Wizards, without their permission. I'm fairly certain the text could be stripped out by Wizards and used as is in some sort of other publication, but the format, trade dress, images, design, etc. are all creative expressions co-owned by JG and Wizards/Arneson.
So to get the PDF published you'd have to get permissions from at least Wizards, Arneson, and Bob Bledsaw II (Bob's eldest son; he is managing the Guild and its properties for the three brothers). Plus you might need permission of Zeitgeist/Code Monkey, depending on the terms of the contracts they have with Wizards and Arneson.
Good luck!
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 19, 2008 23:59:05 GMT -6
Side note: does anyone know who owns the rights to publishing the "Dungeonmaster's Index" that Dave self published oh so many years ago.
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Post by dwayanu on May 20, 2008 1:09:06 GMT -6
Who has seen the Index?
"Ownership rights in the setting" is an evocative phrase, reminiscent of Tolkien's suggestions of vast beyond-the-horizon vistas ...
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Post by coffee on May 20, 2008 10:00:49 GMT -6
Who has seen the Index? "Ownership rights in the setting" is an evocative phrase, reminiscent of Tolkien's suggestions of vast beyond-the-horizon vistas ... I've seen the Index. I own a copy. The copyright is some organization I've never heard of; probably a company Dave came up with just to publish the thing. I would imagine Dave himself owns the copyright to it. But I don't know how to contact him myself (and he doesn't know me from a hole in the wall...) |
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darneson
Level 3 Conjurer
Co-Creator of OD&D
Posts: 56
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Post by darneson on May 22, 2008 13:56:49 GMT -6
I own the rights to FFC. And the artwork is mine too.
WOTC has no rights except the word BLACKMOOR.
Dave Arneson
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darneson
Level 3 Conjurer
Co-Creator of OD&D
Posts: 56
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Post by darneson on May 22, 2008 13:58:15 GMT -6
I own the DM index lock stock and paper.
Dave Arneson
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Post by dwayanu on May 22, 2008 14:00:51 GMT -6
!! ;D ;D!!
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Post by driver on May 22, 2008 14:05:51 GMT -6
I've never owned FFC, but have a copy wending its way towards me even as I type. Hopefully it'll be as inspirational for my own stuff as the other classics of that era.  |
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Post by dwayanu on May 22, 2008 14:06:31 GMT -6
To quote rockers Van Halen: "C'mon, Dave, give us a break!"
As in, we'd love to see FFC back in print.
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Post by foster1941 on May 22, 2008 14:15:27 GMT -6
I own the rights to FFC. And the artwork is mine too. WOTC ha s no rights except the word BLACKMOOR. Dave Arneson If you could be persuaded to do a re-release of this (ideally in print, but probably more realistically as a pdf) that would be way beyond awesome. I'm on record stating that FFC is probably my #1 favorite D&D supplement of all-time. P.S. ZOMG! Dave Arneson just registered and posted at our site! <geek-swoon> |
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 22, 2008 14:25:33 GMT -6
What great news! and welcome Dave!
PDFs of FFC and the DM index would be cherished additions to my collection.
I keep trying to get FFC, but all but the most ratty copies are running $60+ on ebay these days, which as soon as I start paying myself a salary again, I'm all over it. =) (Still wishing I could find my original copies of FFC, CSIO, and other early D&D stuff.)
The DM index is impossible to find. Noble Knight has one at $95. But otherwise I've not seen it anywhere ever.
If I can help create PDF versions of either of these I'd be more than willing to drop whatever it took to get a hardcopy to get one and start with the PDF making.
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Post by dwayanu on May 22, 2008 14:31:55 GMT -6
Way, way beyond awesome! I think the copy I had back in the '80s was missing a map insert or several, but was still most inspirational.
The best PDFs from scans I've seen are those of Barker's original (TSR) Empire of the Petal Throne. The cat who did those has chops!
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Post by calithena on May 22, 2008 18:28:11 GMT -6
Wow! It doesn't get any more OD&D than Dave Arneson!
Welcome to the boards!
I have gotten a lot of mileage both in play and out of play out of FFC over the years, so thanks for that...not to mention, um, for D&D itself...
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sham
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 385
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Post by sham on May 22, 2008 20:29:08 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum Dave!
I'll echo the earlier sentiments about FFC and the DM Index. It's great to hear you own those rights, as you should. I'd love to add these to my collection, as I missed them on my first go 'round. Pee Dee Eff, somehow, someway, please!
Oh, and thanks for making D&D. Kind of like saying thanks for making oxygen. Yeah, it's had that kind of impact for me. I think most here realize that it should read Arneson and Gygax, but...I will leave it at that.
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jjarvis
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Posts: 278
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Post by jjarvis on May 23, 2008 5:25:57 GMT -6
got FFC years back. It is a good look at how another DM organized his game and is a great published portion of RPG history.
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Post by hackman on May 23, 2008 14:49:37 GMT -6
Welcom Dave. I'd purchase a copy of FFC in PDF or re-print format in a heartbeat. If your company put it out, it'd be escpecially good knowing that the original author benefited from the sale.
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busman
Level 6 Magician
Playing OD&D, once again. Since 2008!
Posts: 448
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Post by busman on May 23, 2008 14:51:57 GMT -6
it'd be escpecially good knowing that the original author benefited from the sale. Agreed! |
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Post by tgamemaster1975 on May 25, 2008 21:29:41 GMT -6
Welcome Dave. I'd purchase a copy of FFC in PDF or re-print format in a heartbeat. If your company put it out, it'd be escpecially good knowing that the original author benefited from the sale. I have a good copy of FFC and would love to purchase a pdf from you and I would love to have both a print and pdf of the Dungeonmaster Index. Dave if you print it, we will buy it. In addition, I have a copy of Adventures in Fantasy, if you were to publish the additional books that are referenced as forthcoming in AiF I would love to purchase those also. I have heard that those manuscripts may still exist. |
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