What are people planning on submitting?

[jrients]

May 2, 2008 17:52:26 GMT -6 @jdrakeh said:

I plan on contributing an article (or, possibly, a series of articles) about hacking new-ish RPG material to work with OD&D. For example, d20-ish monster collections. New monsters for use with OD&D rock. Lots of rules don't rock.

I would love to see such a piece.

[jdrakeh]

May 3, 2008 9:06:45 GMT -6 jrients said:

I would love to see such a piece.

Good to know! Between my my copious notes for OD&D conversions and my old 'Realms of Estor' mini-setting, I should have plenty of material for Fight On submissions

[makofan]

I am leaning towards doing another mini outdoors encounter

[ant]

May 3, 2008 9:06:45 GMT -6 jrients said:

I would love to see such a piece.

Seconding that! I'm actually a big fan of 3.5 (shhh!) but, since DMing OD&D, I've always thought there'd be a way of getting some of the 3.5 creative goodness in OD&D.

[jdrakeh]

I'm working on dressing up the monster conversion rules this week and have already submitted an article on using the idea of Destiny Points (i.e., Action Points) in OD&D, with some suitably Old School limitations.

[jdrakeh]

The conversion article for porting d20-ish creatures into OD&D (and Homes BD&D) will definitely be ready in time for Issue #3. I finished double-checking the maths for the latter conversions today (I've never used the conversions with BD&D before).

Now, I only have to write a bit on special abilities -- as such things are entirely exception-based in older versions of D&D, I'm including some guidelines for retaining that flavor. Don't expect to the standardized abilities of d20-ish creature types applied across the board (it keeps players guessing!)

I think the next 'Turning Back the Clock' article will deal with a simple d6-based 'skill system' for OD&D, ala GURPS (sans actual skills, interestingly enough). I've used this system in Holmes BD&D several times and am currently running some basic tests for compatibility with OD&D, though I don't expect it to be an issue.

[brianm]

After being encouraged by both Jeff and Ignatius, I'm working on getting my houserule on splintering shields written up for Fight On! It probably won't be ready before Monday, however.

How do y'all prefer work to be submitted? As .doc or .rtf or .pdf?

- Brian

[calithena]

Hi Trollsmyth! Monday's fine, June 2 is the deadline.

.doc or .rtf both work fine, we can work with .pdf but it's more of a hassle. It should all be good.

[trollman]

I was kicking around some ideas today about doing a comic. I used to draw, and I have a goofy sense of humor.

It would be about a 3E/WoW character adventuring with a Fighting Man. To give you a taste of the humor, one of the lines would go something like this:

Fighting Man inspects the armor of 3E/WoW boy (all covered in spikes) and concludes: "Put that armor away before you put your eye out."

Would something like this fit in Fight On?

[busman]

May 8, 2008 20:14:25 GMT -6 trollman said:

I was kicking around some ideas today about doing a comic. I used to draw, and I have a goofy sense of humor.

It would be about a 3E/WoW character adventuring with a Fighting Man. To give you a taste of the humor, one of the lines would go something like this:

Fighting Man inspects the armor of 3E/WoW boy (all covered in spikes) and concludes: "Put that armor away before you put your eye out."

Would something like this fit in Fight On?

Haha! You could call it "Grognard & Munchkin"

[settembrini]

I´m with Calithena on that one.

[Zulgyan]

Yes, it might have big undesired effects on many people. I agree with cali. It's not so prudent and it may stir up unnesary quarrel, even if it's clear that its not the intent at all!

[busman]

As long as it's equal treatment of how ridiculous each side can be, I think it could be fun. If it's just Munchkin bashing, then I don't think it would be humorous as much as embittered.

[jdrakeh]

May 9, 2008 6:53:51 GMT -6 calithena said:

But I'd really like to avoid 'our way is better' type content where possible...even if it IS better, the best way to communicate that to others is to show others rather than to tell them.

That is a really good way to approach content submissions, I think. Making deliberate fun of how other people play games will always be a pretty touchy subject (rightfully so, I think).

[Note: In the interest of full dislosure, I did request that any of my own submissions not be placed adjacent to material of such nature in an effort to minimize association with it. I did not deign to tell cal what should and should not be accepted for submissions, however, to be clear (that is his call).]

[wulfgar]

I'm working up expanded equipment selections for the game Excursion into the Bizarre that cover the 1990's and 2000's. If it's something that Fight On! would be interested in, I'd be happy to submit them. I've got a couple other houserules ideas for the game as well.

[badger2305]

Actually, there were a bunch of hilarious cartoons in The Dragon and the 1e DMG: one panel, usually with some sort of obvious goofy thing going on:

• The cleric driving a ball and crane, with a FM and MU looking on: "It's not an edged weapon so I can use it, right?"
  
• A line up of an adventuring party, FM, MU, Cleric, Thief, and a funny little guy with a knit cap covering a couple of horns, green skinned, with two little fangs. Facing them is a paladin: "Gentlemen, I have reason to believe there is an orcish spy among us!"
  
• A FM and MU hiding behind a fallen log, while a P-51 strafes their position, barely missing them: "Y'know, Wiz, when you said the treasure was guarded by a couple of fighters, I thought you meant Lords or Myrmidons or something along that line...."
  

Comics like this would be great!

[coffee]

May 9, 2008 11:08:42 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Actually, there were a bunch of hilarious cartoons in The Dragon and the 1e DMG: one panel, usually with some sort of obvious goofy thing going on:

• The cleric driving a ball and crane, with a FM and MU looking on: "It's not an edged weapon so I can use it, right?"
  
• A line up of an adventuring party, FM, MU, Cleric, Thief, and a funny little guy with a knit cap covering a couple of horns, green skinned, with two little fangs. Facing them is a paladin: "Gentlemen, I have reason to believe there is an orcish spy among us!"
  
• A FM and MU hiding behind a fallen log, while a P-51 strafes their position, barely missing them: "Y'know, Wiz, when you said the treasure was guarded by a couple of fighters, I thought you meant Lords or Myrmidons or something along that line...."
  

Comics like this would be great!

I've been thinking about doing a comic strip, along the lines of Finieous Fingers, but so far haven't put a lot of effort into it.

But single panel comics might work, also...

[Zulgyan]

May 9, 2008 11:08:42 GMT -6 badger2305 said:

Actually, there were a bunch of hilarious cartoons in The Dragon and the 1e DMG: one panel, usually with some sort of obvious goofy thing going on:

• The cleric driving a ball and crane, with a FM and MU looking on: "It's not an edged weapon so I can use it, right?"
  
• A line up of an adventuring party, FM, MU, Cleric, Thief, and a funny little guy with a knit cap covering a couple of horns, green skinned, with two little fangs. Facing them is a paladin: "Gentlemen, I have reason to believe there is an orcish spy among us!"
  
• A FM and MU hiding behind a fallen log, while a P-51 strafes their position, barely missing them: "Y'know, Wiz, when you said the treasure was guarded by a couple of fighters, I thought you meant Lords or Myrmidons or something along that line...."
  

Comics like this would be great!

100% YEAH!

[trollman]

I'm talking about a comic... about a game.

But apparently the world isn't ready for this much silliness.

Nevermind.

[Zulgyan]

I totally agree with you. I think that comic would be awesome. But, sadly, many people would have a hard look on it.

Prudence should be better for the health of the zine.

[busman]

I think the prudence is crushing creativity. How about we see a sample of one before we lay judgment.

[calithena]

Well, busman has a good point too. People should make what they want to make first, that's the most important thing. But this issue is coming up a lot in different ways at different times. My basic position is that anything good and relevant can find it's way into the 'zine, but since I was asked, I wanted to express a preference to avoid bashing other games.

Trollman, sorry if any of this harshed your mellow, as I said some humorous comics from you would be welcome. If you draw something you think is funny we'd love to see it.

[jdrakeh]

May 9, 2008 13:00:16 GMT -6 busman said:

I think the prudence is crushing creativity. How about we see a sample of one before we lay judgment.

To be clear, I think a comic strip (or single-pane comic) is a really good idea. I just just think that it probably shouldn't be intended to poke fun at others. If we want to poke fun at ourselves (as the single-pane comics in the official D&D books did), I don't think there is any (or will be) any issue.

Badger's suggestions above, for example, all seem like great candidates for old school comics. Stuff like Trampier's Wormy would no doubt be welcome. The thing is, none of those real old school comics were about bashing other folks or game systems. The were either enitrely self-depricating or fixated on gaming humor (but, rather, more on humor of a general nature).

It's the bit about deliberately having a laugh at the expense of people who play other games or use other systems that will surely generate ill will. It's the in-print equivalent of pointing and snickering. While some people might not like System X and deem making fun of it and people who play it "humor" -- a great many people don't and won't.

I think people can be plenty creative without needing to make fun of others. That said, I'm curious. . . what benefits are to be reaped by making fun of others? I may be missing something.

[busman]

May 9, 2008 15:38:54 GMT -6 @jdrakeh said:

That said, I'm curious. . . what benefits are to be reaped by making fun of others? I may be missing something.

That's certainly taking it in the worst way possible.

He offered a comic, he offered a particular example of one where the ostentatious ornamentation of typical WoW gear is something a grizzled veteran would probably make fun of.

That seems fairly harmless to me. I play WoW (or did for a good time) and I would comment on some of the ridiculous costumes as well.

I don't think he said that every comic would be some way to "Munchkin" bash. I didn't take it that way, but may have or may not have been his intention. It was why I suggested the name Grognard & Munchkin; as it takes the derogatory names of both sides. It allows you to poke fun of ALL the ridiculous things whether new or old. That could be quite bemusing, and an area of rich for the picking.

Poking fun at things that are ridiculous has made many a comic a lifetiem of money: Doonesbury, Bloom County, Dilbert, etc. I'd argue all of the "smarter" comics we've all read growing up used this technique. When there is an elephant in the room, someone pointing it out in a humorous way can be funny.

Plain mean-spirited teasing doesn't seem worthwhile, but I don't think that was (necessarily) the artists intention.

[jdrakeh]

May 9, 2008 17:42:29 GMT -6 busman said:

That's certainly taking it in the worst way possible.

By asking how taking jabs at others is productive? It's a legitimate question. The proposed comic took a deliberate jab at 3x players. You went so far as to characterize the D&D 3x player as a "munchkin". You're arguing in favor of such inclusions. I'm asking what the benefit of such inclusions is. I don't see one and I nobody has taken the time to point one out.

I don't think he said that every comic would be some way to "Munchkin" bash.

Nobody said that he did. He didn't use the word "munchkin" to describe the 3x player, either, to his credit -- but you did. And you're continuing to make that unflattering distinction here as you argue that such name-calling is good, clean, fun.

It was why I suggested the name Grognard & Munchkin; as it takes the derogatory names of both sides.

Except that "grognard" is a term that many old school gamers use to identify themselves in a positive manner. It's about as far from a perjorative as you can get for many old school gamers. The word "munchkin" on the other hand, is almost purely perjorative and has nothing but negative connotations.

There aren't any notable communities of people online who self-identify as "munchkins", while there are dozens of online communites that self-identify as "grognards". The argument that "grognard" carries similar negative connotations to the word "munchkin" isn't a very strong argument at all.

Even if "grognard" did carry the same kind of negative connotations as "munchkin", the last I checked, two wrongs do not make a right. Is that seriously what you're arguing, BTW? that if we offend two different groups of people equally, it's acceptable?!?!

It allows you to poke fun of ALL the ridiculous things whether new or old. That could be quite bemusing, and an area of rich for the picking.

And here is the issue. You're labeling D&D 3x and its players as "ridiculous", which is exactly the kind of insulting, deliberately offensive, attitude that I think Fight On would do well to avoid. While you have every right to view these things as ridiculous, you have to realize that a lot of people don't.

Going out of your way to characterize the people and things that you don't like with perjoratives, while humorous to you, will definitely not be seen as humorous by the targets of your remarks. Humor at the expense of others isn't humorous, not even remotely, and it rightfully earns those who participate in it a lot of ill will. Is that what you want for Fight On? Ill will?

Again, I have no issue with comics like those in the old AD&D core books or Dragon magazine but that's not what you're proposing here. You're actively arguing that characterizing D&D 3x and its players as "munchkins" or "ridiculous" is all in good fun and that anybody who would take offense at being made fun of in such a manner is being unreasonable.

If you don't understand that making fun of other people simply because you don't like the same things that they do is wrong. . . well, man, I don't think that there's anything left to say.

[Deleted]

May 9, 2008 6:53:51 GMT -6 calithena said:

...and some who actively hate everything published for just about any mainstream fantasy game since 2000 (or, in a few extreme cases, 1980).

i'm not that extreme.
OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just plain crap.

[busman]

Wow, are you really mis-characterizing me, which is I suppose what I should have addressed in the first response.

I used to have a 3x game I was in, I've run a failed 3x game, I've got 4e already pre-ordered, I played WoW 40 hours a week for a year and half and enjoyed every minute of it, while also playing just about every other MMO out there. I even own and play the game Munchkin. I play just about everything and enjoy it: Card games, Board games, Computer games, Console games, Old School, New School, German games, Wargames, Computer Wargames and I've even LARPd and RenFaired (I even get paid to make/design games for a living for the last 13 years). You'd be hard pressed to find more than 1% of people in the world with a more diverse background of gaming than myself.. I don't belong to a time frame, or a style of play. My gaming advanced as I aged. I play today's games and enjoy them as much as I play games from the past. About the only thing I've tried and not really enjoyed are Universalis type games where it isn't really so much a game anymore as it is an interactive storytelling device.

I hate to break it to you, but Grognard is a derogatory term from the Munchkin side of the world, maybe that's what you're missing, I'm not sure.

Calling a spade a spade is not intolerance. There ARE armors in WoW that are ridiculous looking from a practicality standpoint. And hiding form that fact and pretending it's intolerant to talk and joke about it is being a stuffed shirt and leads to silence and unspoken prejudice.

I prefer to bring things out in the open and speak about them, and yes poke fun at them in a light-hearted way, because that allows people to laugh and bring down walls and start talking about how they are similar instead of different.

I'd prefer it, if you'd refrain from trying to paint me into a corner of what you assume I am.

I'll ask you a question in return, when you said:

That said, I'm curious. . . what benefits are to be reaped by making fun of others? I may be missing something.

Were you actually serious? I don't believe you were. I believe you were being sardonic. I think it was entirely rhetorical. If I misconstrued your words, please say so, I'm not afraid to admit my misunderstanding.

This is why I claimed you were painting it in the worst light possible. You assumed the point of the comic was to make fun of others. You assumed it was only intended as a comic about lambasting 3e players. I don't know if that was his entire intention or not, but I was refusing to assume I knew his full intentions about the comic from the SINGLE example he gave. Judging a book by it's cover and all that.

I, personally, in my mind's eye, saw a line of comics that took turns looking at the sacred cows of modern and old gaming and having a go at both. I could absolutely see that as being a funny and worthwhile comic (again, allowing everyone to laugh and see that they are human can be a good thing).

Being so afraid of being prejudiced that to talk about prejudice is verboten is not much of a step better than actually being fully prejudiced. Conversation is the only road shared camaraderie.

[driver]

I was going to bring up several possible submissions for this or future issues, as I've been doing a lot of what I consider passable writing and design lately. But this thread leads me to believe I should just stick to scribbling in Moleskines.

I understand the desire not to issue polemics or rekindle the Edition Wars. But ... wow. Yeah. I believe intentions are good all around, but the reaction to the proposed comic is a bit silly and hypersensitive, given the subject matter.

I guess this sort of thing is endemic to group projects and discussions, and the fact that I find it ludicrous probably reflects more poorly on me than on the group.

In any case, good luck and have fun!

[badger2305]

May 9, 2008 12:22:05 GMT -6 trollman said:

I'm talking about a comic... about a game.

But apparently the world isn't ready for this much silliness.

Nevermind.

Dear Trollman - I'm sorry if my post contributed to the lack of focus on your idea.

I like the idea of a comic, but I'm also concerned about the "version comparison" issue (especially given the reaction to DF, etc.). If there's a light-hearted way to do this, great! I'm with Calithena on this - we shouldn't harsh your mellow - and I think you've gotten by now a VERY good idea of what people are concerned about, so I'm looking forward to your comic.

[Zulgyan]

People, c'mon, let's all calm down. Look! we are loosing cool guys such as driver! That's sad.

driver, don't leave! I'm sure you have cool stuff for Fight On!

A link for us to re-read: odd74.proboards76.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=11