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Post by mabon5127 on Dec 8, 2012 19:11:33 GMT -6
Does anyone use the practice of slavery in their ASSH / Sword and Sorcery campaigns. I have insomuch as it adds to the already dark and gritty atmosphere of Hyperborea.
In my High Fantasy campaigns it really never came up beyond the orcs enslaving a few demi-humans to work in the mines. This vile practice was relegated to the "evil" races. The wide spread legality or acceptance of slavery never came up as an option.
I have yet to work out the details but I am assuming two types of servitude.
The "voluntary" or judicial slavery to give up one's freedom with a contract for a specified amount of time to work off a debt or pay for a crime. This type would have very specific rules for treatment of the indentured servant with law based protections against cruel and unusual punishments.
The second type would represent non-judicial slavery. The capture of a person for the purpose of enslavement. This often happens between warring tribes or antipathetic races. The culture may accept this as normal with little or no protection for the enslaved.
For a person raised in a world where both types of slavery are fairly commonplace how does alignment play into the ownership and treatment of slaves? Does it make sense to relegate the use of slavery to only evil people?
I was wondering how others handled this.
Morgan
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Post by famouswolf on Dec 8, 2012 20:03:31 GMT -6
I figure some of the cultures on the island will be such that slavery is an integral part of their society, the Hyperboreans and the Ixians? in particular. For some there will be serfdom and war captives, like the Kimmerians? and Vikings. But yes, I would have slavery as a major part of the game. It just wouldn't feel right otherwise, like in the Young Kingdoms it wouldn't. Or a game set in ancient Rome, say.
As for alignment, I don't think a people like the Melniboneans, for instance, or the Ixians? would think of the institution of slavery as evil per se. If in cultural context it is part of everyday life then it could be warped to be lawful good. Whatever feels right, but not in the context of modern times (for most of us).
If I get to run this, I guess I'll just let everyone be themselves. So to speak.
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Post by Ghul on Dec 9, 2012 6:40:33 GMT -6
Morgan,
In the context that you site, it is for this reason that I tend to place a greater emphasis on Law, Chaos, and Neutrality, with the "moral" compasses of Good and Evil being less defined, more subjective, largely predicated on the culture.
IMC, indentured servitude is commonplace, with full on "slavery" seen mostly in New Pictland, Skarag Coast, and Scythium. In Khromarium, it is frowned upon, but it is not illegal, and in Port Zangerios, it is practiced in the practical sense and also as a fetish.
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 14, 2012 1:13:01 GMT -6
@ Lord Ghul Well, if you sent me a game I could read and hop into the discussion...  Culture certainly informs moral compasses in my own world as well. It must be refreshing being rid of the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D, heh Ghul? I killed it back in 1974 when creating WoK and never looked back. Oh, well, until it arrives I will bide my time. May the mundane never inform your pen strokes! IA! IA! I... ach! wheeze! hack!.... uh, later... |
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Post by Ghul on Dec 14, 2012 9:52:56 GMT -6
@ Lord Ghul Well, if you sent me a game I could read and hop into the discussion... Culture certainly informs moral compasses in my own world as well. It must be refreshing being rid of the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D, heh Ghul? I killed it back in 1974 when creating WoK and never looked back. Oh, well, until it arrives I will bide my time. May the mundane never inform your pen strokes! IA! IA! I... ach! wheeze! hack!.... uh, later... Head's up, geese-on-high! Err . . . I mean, Gesundheit! Yes, you are high up on my list to receive a copy. In fact our very own Fin (Marv) is next on my list as well. And right before you, Rob, is Roy Thomas, whom I've had the pleasure of exchanging private emails with in recent months. We spoke of REH and CAS. Of course he's a huge fan, and was instrumental in my creative development as a young man -- I was reading Savage Sword of Conan before I'd read actually read REH and before I discovered D&D. Also, for fiction I had read the Hobbit, Tarzan, Doc Savage, and I'd watched cartoons such as Thundarr the Barbarian, and The Herculoids, so by the time D&D entered my life (5th grade), my wee brain was primed for the material. |
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rjkuntz
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
Pioneer of OD&D
Posts: 345
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Post by rjkuntz on Dec 14, 2012 15:36:30 GMT -6
It's nice to know that Roy is still kicking about. Is he still engaged in the craft? By the looks of your avatar here, that "wee brain" seems to have grown! Later Lord Ghul |
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Post by Ghul on Dec 17, 2012 10:22:36 GMT -6
It's nice to know that Roy is still kicking about. Is he still engaged in the craft? By the looks of your avatar here, that "wee brain" seems to have grown! Later Lord Ghul Roy is a very kind fellow, very approachable, modest, and in fact self-deprecating. I engaged him to simply chat about some of his work over the years, and when I mentioned my work on the AS&SH project, I was flattered that he'd shown a genuine interest in reading the material. He's not a gamer, but he is very much an enthusiast of the S&S genre and is interested in reading any creative material associated with it. |
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mythos
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 96
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Post by mythos on Dec 23, 2012 15:07:11 GMT -6
I've never had a problem using slavery in any of my S&S games.
The entire concept is used, either as a story point, or background dressing, in a number of older fantasy settings. Only in the last couple of decades has it been phased out and only mentioned if it is germain to the plot of a story.
In my games I tend to use it as a constant. Both as a form of legal punishment and as the result of being captured in raid or war.
Like so many of the more horrible aspects of human nature, slavery makes for an excellent story devise. Do the characters taske the bounty hunting job, bringing in the runaway slaves?
Even if they were innocent of the charges against them. How do the players handle discovering that the payment they were promised is, in part, made up of high value slaves?
Like so many thing from history that people today wish to avoid, a good GM needs to look at them and ask, How can I use this in my game?
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Post by mabon5127 on Dec 23, 2012 17:40:02 GMT -6
As always thanks for the feedback! I still believe its going to be jarring to the players as they are used to a high fantasy setting. Its going to be fun seeing how they struggle with this.
Morgan
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Post by tombowings on Dec 23, 2012 22:42:09 GMT -6
In my Vats of Mazarin G+ game, one of the most profitable ways of gaining gold (and thus XP) is turn out to be selling captured monsters/NPCs into slavery.
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Post by blackadder23 on Dec 27, 2012 18:32:23 GMT -6
I'm asking all my players to read at least a few of Smith's Hyperborean and Xothique tales, Howard's Kull and Conan stories, and/or Lovecraft's Dreamlands stories before we begin play. I think they'll get the picture. This is not Middle Earth.  |
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Post by Ghul on Dec 28, 2012 10:02:33 GMT -6
I'm asking all my players to read at least a few of Smith's Hyperborean and Xothique tales, Howard's Kull and Conan stories, and/or Lovecraft's Dreamlands stories before we begin play. I think they'll get the picture. This is not Middle Earth. This is actually a good idea, a bit of "suggested reading" if you are about to run a long campaign. It helps create campaign immersion, I think. |
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Post by Cthulhu Colin on Dec 28, 2012 10:23:34 GMT -6
If I was to have Players do some suggested reading to get into the correct spirit, I'd only assign a couple (literally no more than two) short tales or it would start to seem more like homework for them. In this case I'd have them read CAS' "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros" (for a look at two adventurers/thieves), and either "The Testament of Athammaus" (as it drives home the oddness even more and links with Satampra Zeiros) or "The Theft of the Thirty-Nine Girdles" (weird cults, odd magic, and more thievery/adventure with Satampra). If they enjoyed the two tales and wanted to read more, I'd then recommend others such as "The Weird of Avoosl Wuthoqquan".
Fortunately, these tales are all freely available online as well, so there's no need for purchases or lendings of books.
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mythos
Level 3 Conjurer
Posts: 96
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Post by mythos on Dec 28, 2012 19:37:34 GMT -6
Just as a resource for those who want to read the CAS stories online, CAS Short Stories |
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Post by blackadder23 on Dec 29, 2012 15:19:54 GMT -6
If I was to have Players do some suggested reading to get into the correct spirit, I'd only assign a couple (literally no more than two) short tales or it would start to seem more like homework for them. Well, it is "homework" in a sense, although I prefer to think of it as more of an audition. If this type of fantasy doesn't appeal to a player, I'd prefer we both knew it before the campaign begins, rather than after. In particular, I intend to include a fair dose of sick humor in the style of Clark Ashton Smith and that's not everyone's cup of tea. Also, a player who blanches at the idea of reading a couple of stories is probably going to be uncooperative and a troublemaker during the actual game. I just don't have the time or energy for that kind of thing these days, so I need a test to weed out those who will most likely cause me headaches. I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I'd gladly put up with obnoxious players if it meant I could be 21 again, but that's not in the cards... so I won't.  |
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Post by Ghul on Dec 29, 2012 15:58:28 GMT -6
Well, it's not always that the player is obnoxious, per se, but rather that they expect to have a certain type of play experience. For instance, one of my players, a guy I've been gaming with for about 20 years now, does not like comic books and does not like super heroes (movies being an exception). He doesn't like when we do an occasional supers campaign, and he'll complain about it a little, but he's basically a good sport about it. Different strokes and all . . .
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Post by mabon5127 on Dec 29, 2012 16:31:24 GMT -6
If I was to have Players do some suggested reading to get into the correct spirit, I'd only assign a couple (literally no more than two) short tales or it would start to seem more like homework for them. Well, it is "homework" in a sense, although I prefer to think of it as more of an audition. If this type of fantasy doesn't appeal to a player, I'd prefer we both knew it before the campaign begins, rather than after. In particular, I intend to include a fair dose of sick humor in the style of Clark Ashton Smith and that's not everyone's cup of tea. Also, a player who blanches at the idea of reading a couple of stories is probably going to be uncooperative and a troublemaker during the actual game. I just don't have the time or energy for that kind of thing these days, so I need a test to weed out those who will most likely cause me headaches. I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I'd gladly put up with obnoxious players if it meant I could be 21 again, but that's not in the cards... so I won't. Ha Ha! I don't have enough friends to audition anybody!! There are lots of games / genres I have a low interest in but would play if someone else ran them. Westerns, pirates, and hard science space campaigns I would not run but would gladly play. I have fun running when my players have fun so I guess I bend to their will when it comes to content. I don't think you are a jerk at all we have had to un-invite some folks that didn't fit in in the past. Morgan |
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Post by Cthulhu Colin on Dec 29, 2012 19:06:26 GMT -6
Well, it is "homework" in a sense, although I prefer to think of it as more of an audition. If this type of fantasy doesn't appeal to a player, I'd prefer we both knew it before the campaign begins, rather than after. In particular, I intend to include a fair dose of sick humor in the style of Clark Ashton Smith and that's not everyone's cup of tea. Also, a player who blanches at the idea of reading a couple of stories is probably going to be uncooperative and a troublemaker during the actual game. I just don't have the time or energy for that kind of thing these days, so I need a test to weed out those who will most likely cause me headaches. I don't mean to sound like a jerk. I'd gladly put up with obnoxious players if it meant I could be 21 again, but that's not in the cards... so I won't. I can think of several reasons why someone may not be able to/may not want to read the tales that have nothing to do with them being obnoxious or dickish at the table. Similarly, I can think of Players who would read them and would still be dicks. As barometers of someone being a potential problem player go, I'd say it could be pretty unreliable and that if you really want to test potential players there are likely better ways to do so. Colin |
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benoist
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
OD&D, AD&D, AS&SH
Posts: 346
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Post by benoist on Jan 17, 2013 21:26:52 GMT -6
@ Lord Ghul Well, if you sent me a game I could read and hop into the discussion... Culture certainly informs moral compasses in my own world as well. It must be refreshing being rid of the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D, heh Ghul? I killed it back in 1974 when creating WoK and never looked back. I very much like the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D as you put it, and if anything, I would actually amp up the concept with Saints and the like (such as Saint Cuthbert) as deities in my own setting to make sense of it all. I really like this part of the game. BUT. In the context of Hyperborea, where you have a deity like Xathoqqua as ubiquitous as it is, it's hard to sell the same paradigm, unless you get into some specifics like some monks from the Dark Ages have been thrown through time and space into Hyperborea and the like. I like the way good and evil have been downplayed while still leaving room for the Paladin though. I can certainly understand how some would want to get rid of the good v. evil axis in an Hyperborean campaign, however. Maybe redefining the Paladin as a "Champion" instead? Ideas, always more ideas... |
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Post by Ghul on Jan 18, 2013 7:15:01 GMT -6
@ Lord Ghul Well, if you sent me a game I could read and hop into the discussion... Culture certainly informs moral compasses in my own world as well. It must be refreshing being rid of the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D, heh Ghul? I killed it back in 1974 when creating WoK and never looked back. I very much like the Christian-imbued ethos of D&D as you put it, and if anything, I would actually amp up the concept with Saints and the like (such as Saint Cuthbert) as deities in my own setting to make sense of it all. I really like this part of the game. BUT. In the context of Hyperborea, where you have a deity like Xathoqqua as ubiquitous as it is, it's hard to sell the same paradigm, unless you get into some specifics like some monks from the Dark Ages have been thrown through time and space into Hyperborea and the like. I like the way good and evil have been downplayed while still leaving room for the Paladin though. I can certainly understand how some would want to get rid of the good v. evil axis in an Hyperborean campaign, however. Maybe redefining the Paladin as a "Champion" instead? Ideas, always more ideas... Small pockets of any of the Abrahamic religions are certainly possible within the limits of the setting, as the Boreas allows ingress for whomever and whatever you might imagine. Regarding moral compass of Good vs. Evil, I place a stronger emphasis on Law vs. Chaos, with goodness and wickedness forming aspect of these two stronger forces. So, not so much a demarcated axis of alignments for me, personally. Great post, Benoist. |
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Post by blackadder23 on Jan 18, 2013 12:17:11 GMT -6
I see alignment in AS&SH as being without any real cosmic significance (unlike in standard D&D) because I see the AS&SH universe as being basically morally uncaring (in keeping with the attitudes of HPL, Howard, and CAS). Alignment in my campaign will be more of a philosophical point. I plan to use these simple distinctions:
Law - Aligned with civilization (or what's left of it in Hyperborea)
Chaos - Aligned with (literally lawless) barbarians
Good - Has a sense of honor
Evil - Lacks a sense of honor
Neutral - Not really concerned with civilization or honor
So the alignments will break down roughly as:
Lawful Good (least common alignment in Hyperborea) - Committed to preserving civilization and the rule of law, but not by unsavory or dishonorable means. Tempers severity with mercy.
Lawful Evil (fairly common) - Committed to preserving civilization and the rule of law at any cost, with the end justifying the means and the strong dominating the weak as a matter of natural law.
Chaotic Good (common) - Committed to wild barbaric freedom and contemptuous of laws, but living by a code of personal honor and willing to respect the rights of others if deemed reasonable.
Chaotic Evil (fairly common) - Committed to wild barbaric freedom and contemptuous of all laws and the rights of all others. Has no code of honor and will act treacherously whenever convenient.
Neutral (most common alignment in Hyperborea) - Just wants to be left in peace and won't take sides in any of these affairs. Will keep faith and work to preserve society within reason, but not to the point of any serious self-sacrifice.
Stripping the alignments of cosmic significance should make it easier for characters of differing alignments to work together, but those with honor will be foolish to trust those without!
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Post by Ghul on Jan 18, 2013 12:25:07 GMT -6
Yes, that is a nice way of putting it, blackadder23. In my view, I see Neutrality as the most common alignment, but as the sun continues to bloat and the world moves closer to annihilation, Chaos is trending strongest, and Xathoqqua is laughing.
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Post by mabon5127 on Jan 20, 2013 9:48:50 GMT -6
I see alignment in AS&SH as being without any real cosmic significance (unlike in standard D&D) because I see the AS&SH universe as being basically morally uncaring (in keeping with the attitudes of HPL, Howard, and CAS). Alignment in my campaign will be more of a philosophical point. I plan to use these simple distinctions: Law - Aligned with civilization (or what's left of it in Hyperborea) Chaos - Aligned with (literally lawless) barbarians Good - Has a sense of honor Evil - Lacks a sense of honor Neutral - Not really concerned with civilization or honor So the alignments will break down roughly as: Lawful Good (least common alignment in Hyperborea) - Committed to preserving civilization and the rule of law, but not by unsavory or dishonorable means. Tempers severity with mercy. Lawful Evil (fairly common) - Committed to preserving civilization and the rule of law at any cost, with the end justifying the means and the strong dominating the weak as a matter of natural law. Chaotic Good (common) - Committed to wild barbaric freedom and contemptuous of laws, but living by a code of personal honor and willing to respect the rights of others if deemed reasonable. Chaotic Evil (fairly common) - Committed to wild barbaric freedom and contemptuous of all laws and the rights of all others. Has no code of honor and will act treacherously whenever convenient. Neutral (most common alignment in Hyperborea) - Just wants to be left in peace and won't take sides in any of these affairs. Will keep faith and work to preserve society within reason, but not to the point of any serious self-sacrifice. Stripping the alignments of cosmic significance should make it easier for characters of differing alignments to work together, but those with honor will be foolish to trust those without! Pretty much agree here with everything. When I look at the alignment of cosmic beings I look at chaos and law as a function of the being's predictability with regards to mortal interaction. Lawful means the being will have very specific expectations for the "religious" behavior of its adherents. The "religion" will have similar aspects regardless of location. Good and evil are largely the result of the hierarchy of the religion in a given area and the effects of race and culture. Chaotic gods have few organized practices, may have large temples or not, but otherwise differ from place to place. Worship is important but method is not. Again, good and evil is largely a function of the locals in charge. This allows me to have, for instance, Chuthulu cults in some areas that are largely good as they provide healing and curative services to there community as well as running a place of worship and helping the indigent. Other Chuthulu cults in other lands may demand human sacrifice and other blood rituals to tap the power cosmic providing only continued existence for their worship. The great uncaring Chuthulu is not concerned as long as he is being worshiped (if he even is awake to know!) Thaumagorga is somewhat different as he brought with him the mortal trappings of evil into his ascension. This is his focus. Have an exalt Blackadder! I will be stealing the alignment explanation for my players! Morgan |
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Post by blackadder23 on Jan 21, 2013 9:45:11 GMT -6
Have an exalt Blackadder! I will be stealing the alignment explanation for my players! Please do.  |
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blackknight
Level 1 Medium
Vorpal Bunnies FTW!!!
Posts: 17
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Post by blackknight on Feb 25, 2013 10:12:37 GMT -6
I would think that the Viking region of Hyperboria if truly drawn from the peoples in the Norse era and times of raiding would have had legal slavery. as an avid researcher in norse history, slavery was common all the way up to the Cristian religion being adopted. Most of the slaves were derived from raiding, but some were 'Strangers" or "Visitors" to the Norse lands. The Norse peoples more or less had the thought that any person that was not of Norse decent, thereby not having the Norse laws apply to them, could be essentially "bopped on the head" by a native, and sold into slavery as long as that "visitor" to the Norselands had no sponsor to be there. The laws that applied to native norsmen and women did not "apply" to strangers and visitors, again as long as there was not a sponsoring Norse party that was willing to stand for them.
If the "Bopping" accidently killed the visitor, and it was found that they DID have a sponsor, then the accident would be paid for by the way of a Weregild, or "Man Price", so as to compensate the sponsoring party.
Bob
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Post by Ghul on Feb 26, 2013 7:00:38 GMT -6
Great post, Bob. Indeed the vikings are drawn from that era, but what must be taken into account is the arrival to a foreign land where dwell gods, monsters, and other beings, conflicts with other races of men, the passage of millennia, the arrival of the Green Death, and the subsequent dark age and slow recovery. Circumstances change, and so too may some customs in such a fantasy milieu. Still, all or some of what you suggest can be part of Viking life. |
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Post by blackadder23 on Feb 26, 2013 8:11:56 GMT -6
I'm probably going to restrict large scale slavery to the Hyperboreans, Ixians, ape-men, and orcs. I want slavers to remain a source of horror and outrage, and that would be diluted by the widespread acceptance of slavery. Quasi-slavery (indentured servitude, corvee labor, impressed sailors, conscripted soldiers) will be much more widespread, but outright slavery will be the province of the worst elements of Hyperborea.
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blackknight
Level 1 Medium
Vorpal Bunnies FTW!!!
Posts: 17
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Post by blackknight on Feb 26, 2013 8:29:02 GMT -6
One other note of Slavery in Norse settings takes place at the time of Death of Chieftans and other nobles. During the death ceremonies, a slave girl commonly is "sacrificed" in numerous ways (Sexually, and finally violently by both Strangulation and stabbing), to travel with her lord. Without the slave girl option then you must cut out that part, or have a volenteer to join her lord...
Annother note/Opurtunity, is when the party "splits up" and your in a norse area. if one of the splits does not have a Norse native, you can have them waylaid, and taken as slaves.
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Post by blackadder23 on Feb 26, 2013 10:47:13 GMT -6
The other reason I don't intend to have widespread slavery in my campaign is because Hyperborea is a very Chaotic place, and I ironically consider slavery to be a Lawful phenomenon (albeit Lawful Evil). It relies on the acceptance by the population at large - and even most of the slaves themselves - that slavery is a part of the "order" of the universe and that being a slave is the proper "place" for those of that status. I regard most of the population of Hyperborea as being too individualistic and freedom-loving (i.e., Chaotic) to accept the idea of slavery (or even peasantry or serfdom) without a fight. So there certainly are slaves and unwilling servants in my version of Hyperborea, but they don't accept their status as "divinely ordained"; they are kept in line strictly by fear of punishment. Almost no one dares to gather large numbers of slaves in one place, because they would certainly revolt at the first opportunity. Only those with overwhelming power to cow and terrorize their slaves (i.e., the Ixians) are arrogant enough to do so, and they may yet pay the price for their hubris...
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Post by mabon5127 on Feb 26, 2013 14:32:34 GMT -6
The players will be returning to their base of operations this evening after a successful adventure and will do so via sea voyage on the Justicar captained by an Ixian named Phamea. They will find out when at sea that the cargo is 30+ pictish women and children to be sold in Khromarium. They are friends with the captain but how should they react? I suspect a mixture of apathy and righteous anger.
Its a grim world where the strong prey on the weak and there are few laws to protect them. Most Primitive cultures would have no problem stealing wives (or husbands for Amazons), taking slaves, or kidnapping victims for torture or other entertainment from differing peoples or tribes.
Morgan
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