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Post by geoffrey on Sept 13, 2010 15:08:54 GMT -6
My single favorite movie is the 1977 Star Wars film. I wish we had eleven more just like it, only better.
The old Flash Gordon serials were typically 12 episodes long, so back in late 1977/early 1978 Lucas planned on there being 11 more Star Wars films. Each would be relatively self-contained, rather than a part of an over-arching saga. (Think of the old James Bond films, and you'll know what I mean.) George planned on hiring 10 other directors, one each to direct Star Wars 2 through Star Wars 11. Then George himself would return and direct Star Wars 12, the last of the bunch. As he said:
"It's a competition. I'm hoping if I get friends of mine they will want to do a much better film, like, 'I'll show George that I can do a film twice that good,' and I think they can, but then I want to do the last one, so I can do one twice as good as everybody else." (from an interview by Paul Scanlon, published in Rolling Stone, August 25, 1977)
I'd like to see Luke, Leia, Han, Chewbacca, C-3PO, and R2-D2 cruise the galaxy in the Millennium Falcon, having tons of mostly unrelated adventures on a variety of alien worlds.
I like to think of the Empire being destroyed along with the Death Star. Only the fear of the Death Star kept the systems in line, and once that was gone, plus with the outrage over Alderaan's destruction, plus the outrage over the disbanding of the Senate, the Empire would have collapsed, to be replaced by the Old Republic. After all, the Old Republic had been around for millennia, while the Empire for only decades. The Empire would be a tiny, anomalous blip in a vast, Republican history.
Thus Star Wars 2 and following films wouldn't just be the same "Rebels vs. Imperials" over and over and over. Instead, Luke and his friends would have a multitudinous variety of adventures in an adventurous galaxy. The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.)
I'd keep the whole thing pre-adolescent. We don't need any romance between Leia and Han, or between Luke and Leia. They can all just be adventuring friends. I for one would not miss the smooches.
To cap it all off, I'd like for Star Wars 12 to not have a bittersweet ending AT ALL. It's fun and rollicking the whole way through. The film could end with our heroes all on the Falcon as she jumped to light speed, in search of their next adventure. Instead of THE END, on the last screen, it could say THE ADVENTURES NEVER END...IN YOUR OWN IMAGINATION (or something less corny).
Of course, this is all impossible. But I can get into transports of joy thinking how cool it would be to own a set of 12 dvds, each with a Star Wars film on it as described above, and each one better than the one before. A solid 24-hours of space-fantasy cinema.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 13, 2010 20:44:37 GMT -6
You should watch the Clone Wars cartoon. It's every bit the pulp serial you describe.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Sept 13, 2010 22:19:45 GMT -6
You should watch the Clone Wars cartoon. It's every bit the pulp serial you describe. I largely agree. I have some issues with the series, but, by and large, it's a pretty well done space opera that clearly takes a lot of inspiration from Saturday matinee serials from the 50s, right down to the melodramatic voice-overs that start each episode, setting the scene for this week's adventure. It's silly, over the top fun, especially if you can divorce it from the rest of the Star Wars media franchise and just enjoy it on its own merits. |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 14, 2010 12:31:21 GMT -6
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.) I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale. I'd keep the whole thing pre-adolescent. We don't need any romance between Leia and Han, or between Luke and Leia. They can all just be adventuring friends. I for one would not miss the smooches. The other day when I found Splinter and the other books I mentioned in my post, I was looking at the cover blurb on an EU novel. I stopped reading at "burning passion". Really  |
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 14, 2010 16:39:59 GMT -6
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.) I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale. I see where you are coming from, and I'd be cool with that. I love the way Darth Vader is portrayed in the original film: 1. He yells at people. Contrast that with the cool customer of ESB. 2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films. 3. Vader isn't afraid to do a mincy little stance when talking to Princess Leia in their first meeting. Contrast that with the more staid Vader of later movies. 4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man. 5. Vader isn't anybody's father. Another note: When Lucas changed Vader from a bounty hunter into the Empire's number 2 man, Lucas found that he needed a bounty hunter. Thus entered Boba Fett to partially take the original Vader's place. I can't remember where I was going with all this, but there it is. ;D |
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Post by coffee on Sept 15, 2010 2:44:38 GMT -6
I can't remember where I was going with all this, but there it is. ;D Doesn't matter where you were going; where you ended up was just fine. |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 15, 2010 8:37:17 GMT -6
2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films. In the book at least there are several references to their fear and nervousness, especially after he chokes Tagge. Tarkin is not afraid of him, which I find interesting (and I mentioned in Fin's thread about his old ODD/SW game). Tarkin's not part of the military hierarchy, but Vader acknowledges Tarkin's authority. Presumably because Tarkin is the Emperor's direct appointment, but there are a couple of other spots in the book where Vader talks sarcastically/dismissively about the Emperor in front of Tarkin. It's a puzzlement never repeated in the other films- Moff Jerjerrod is totally afraid of him in RotJ, but between script drafts and novels it's hard to tell whether he's really a Moff in the film or just an elevated military commander. 4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man. Where is this from? In the book there are several references to the Emperor "inflicting" Vader on "us" (the military brain trust). FWIW, ESB is my favorite of the films, and I actually prefer the "apology accepted, Captain Needa" as the bodies are dragged off  to the yelling and ranting. These days I rationalize the kow-towing to the Emperor in the second two films as part of "Vader's plan" described in SW, which isn't ever expressly detailed but seems to involve replacing the Emperor and training his own dark side apprentices. I think it would have been interesting if Vader's last/dying line had been "Now we can rule the Empire as father and son! Go take command of the Rebel fleet, and we can have peace in the galaxy" rather than "go tell your sister I'm nice".  |
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 15, 2010 14:54:56 GMT -6
2. Imperial officers regularly tell Vader off. Contrast that to the feared Vader of later films. In the book at least there are several references to their fear and nervousness, especially after he chokes Tagge. Tarkin is not afraid of him, which I find interesting (and I mentioned in Fin's thread about his old ODD/SW game). Tarkin's not part of the military hierarchy, but Vader acknowledges Tarkin's authority. Presumably because Tarkin is the Emperor's direct appointment, but there are a couple of other spots in the book where Vader talks sarcastically/dismissively about the Emperor in front of Tarkin. It's a puzzlement never repeated in the other films- Moff Jerjerrod is totally afraid of him in RotJ, but between script drafts and novels it's hard to tell whether he's really a Moff in the film or just an elevated military commander. 4. Vader isn't really part of the Empire in SW. He is a sort of bounty hunter employed by Tarkin to find the Death Star data tapes. Contrast that with Vader as the Emperor's right-hand man. Where is this from? In the book there are several references to the Emperor "inflicting" Vader on "us" (the military brain trust). Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Star Wars definitely has stuff in it that isn't in the film. The only reference in the film to the Emperor is Tarkin's remark about the Emperor dissolving the Senate. Of course, at this time the Emperor was conceived as an ineffective politician rather than as a Sith mastermind. (His tongue-in-cheek name was Cos Danuts [cause of the nuts], and he was thought of as similar to Richard Nixon.) Taking the 1977 Star Wars film in isolation from any other book or movie, I think a good understanding of it is that Vader is not a part of the chain of command. Obviously Tarkin could boss him around. Various Imperial officers were snippy with him. The one time Vader struck back at one was with the Force, not by pulling rank. Vader's job in the 1977 film was to find the stolen data tapes. That, coupled with Tarkin holding his leash, leads me to consider Vader a bounty hunter of sorts employed by Tarkin. I know that Lucas was surprised by Vader's popularity. He didn't intend for Vader to be the huge figure he later became. He was merely the number two villian of the show. In fact, until relatively late in the revision process, Vader's ship got blown-up over the Death Star at the end, rather than spin into space. |
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Post by 18 Spears on Sept 15, 2010 15:14:00 GMT -6
Brian Daley's novelization of Star Wars ... (snip) Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization of SW, not Daley. |
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 15, 2010 17:43:24 GMT -6
Brian Daley's novelization of Star Wars ... (snip) Alan Dean Foster wrote the novelization of SW, not Daley. Oops! You're right. Fixed. |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 16, 2010 8:22:31 GMT -6
The only reference in the film to the Emperor is Tarkin's remark about the Emperor dissolving the Senate. Of course, at this time the Emperor was conceived as an ineffective politician rather than as a Sith mastermind. (His tongue-in-cheek name was Cos Danuts [cause of the nuts], and he was thought of as similar to Richard Nixon.) I figured you were working from scripts or some other behind-the-scenes source. Those pesky ret-cons started right from the beginnning I'm curious to see what Foster did in "Splinter", although I'm guessing there's not much exposition of Imperial structure. I think the emperor was depicted as a ruthless, manipulating politician, at least in the book, but agree no mention was made of his sith-ness. As I noted in the other thread there is also mention of "emperor S" which is another interesting aspect. Tarkin holding his leash, leads me to consider Vader a bounty hunter of sorts employed by Tarkin. I read and heard that as an insult by Leia both implying Vader is a pet and rubbing his mechanical face in his status as subordinate/thrall/liegeman to the Emperor and Moffs. For whatever actual reason that was (social status? stigma as a former Jedi?) |
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Post by 18 Spears on Sept 16, 2010 8:38:01 GMT -6
I'm curious to see what Foster did in "Splinter", although I'm guessing there's not much exposition of Imperial structure. Not much at all. Stormtroopers were there, but mostly as spear carriers. Vader revealed he knew who only vaguely who Luke was (a farmer from Tattooine) and that Luke was responsible for destroying the Death Star. Luke seemed to channel Obi-Wan during his battle with Vader, and we saw some uses of The Force we didn't see during the film. The creation of kinetite, for instance, a slow moving object that contained a great deal of kinetic energy. There were also further hints of a growing romance between Luke and Leia. Since Lucas gave Foster direction for this novel this is another indicator of a massive retcon of the whole twins and Vader/Anakin thing. |
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Post by Falconer on Sept 16, 2010 17:51:53 GMT -6
Hmm, Vader as a bounty hunter in the original movie is intriguing. I must rewatch it with that possibility in mind.
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Post by EdOWar on Sept 17, 2010 16:34:05 GMT -6
The only real loose end to tie-up would be Darth Vader (who is more of a bounty hunter than anything else in the first Star Wars film). I'd have Luke kill him in a light saber duel in Star Wars 2, and that would be the end of that. (No "father Vader" or anything of that sort.) I like a lot of what you outline but that would be a waste of one of the greatest villains of all time (at least before pod racing was invented). That would be like Batman catching the Joker in issue #2 and leaving him behind bars for the rest of the run. It's nice to think of a 12-hour timeframe in which to develop other cool villains, of course, but Vader should be the big finale. I'd have to second (or third) this. Saving Vader for the big finale in the 12th movie would be the best, imo. He can be in the background, too, in the other movies, maybe show up in a couple of them, just so we don't forget about him. But his downfall would come in the 12th movie. It could have been epic I tell you...EPIC! |
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 18, 2010 5:41:49 GMT -6
Another +1 to this from me!  I always wished that Lucas would have cranked out a zillion movies just like Star Wars. I mean, Empire Strikes Back was a classic movie, but it was very different in style from the original. I honestly had this same gripe with Pirates of the Caribbean, which I see as this generation's Star Wars. The first movie was action-packed, didn't dwell in angst, and was just a heck of a lot of fun. Then for movies 2-3 they had to fill in symbolizm, characters agonizing over things, complex plot twists... Just stick to the simple black/white "us versus them" of the original. I don't need "stormtroopers are people, too" or "Vader was just misunderstood" kinds of movies. |
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 18, 2010 13:16:17 GMT -6
I honestly had this same gripe with Pirates of the Caribbean, which I see as this generation's Star Wars. The first movie was action-packed, didn't dwell in angst, and was just a heck of a lot of fun. Then for movies 2-3 they had to fill in symbolizm, characters agonizing over things, complex plot twists... Yep, the first Pirates of the Caribbean is a lot of fun, with its own Luke (Will Turner), Leia (Elizabeth Swann), and Han (Capt. Jack Sparrow). I can watch it over and over. The second PotC has a few good parts (mostly on the isle of the cannibals), but I don't like most of the film. The third PotC was a complete loss as far as I'm concerned. Ugh. |
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Post by barrataria on Sept 18, 2010 15:37:52 GMT -6
+eleventy billion I didn't like Davy Jones much as a villain, his ship was too gimmicky, and the whole third movie didn't make much sense. Orlando Bloom and Keira Knightley were lucky to get their characters written out for v.4. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 19, 2010 9:25:24 GMT -6
But if they had cranked out a dozen movies just like the original PotC, I would have gladly gone to see them all. Just like the original SW. By the way, this is one thing I like about the original Star Trek from the '60's. (Falconer perks up at this point.  ) I like the fact that at the end of an episode we end up with the characters roughly the same as the episode began. No long-term angst or life-changing moments, but you could almost watch any of the TOS episodes in any order and not feel like you missed something. If McCoy falls in love in one episode, he's fine by the next. Done, let's move onto the next adventure. PotC and SW both fall into the "sweeping saga" trap where there are all of these tricky plot twists and cliffhangers and you need to really pay attention in order to keep up. The movies become more of a story arc and less of an adventure. |
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Post by murquhart72 on Sept 19, 2010 12:13:11 GMT -6
Kinda like the TV series Lost  |
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Post by 18 Spears on Sept 19, 2010 14:41:47 GMT -6
The first "Pirates" movie was a bunch of fun with just right mix of scary and funny-just like the Disney ride!
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Post by Falconer on Sept 19, 2010 15:45:12 GMT -6
It's true, I find Star Trek TOS to be the ultimate "comfort TV". That tried-and-true formula which dictates that the status quo be regained at the end of the episode is a-ok with me. (Not to mention the "TV home"--the ship--and the "TV family"--the cast, complete with always-right father-figure.
I have been thinking for a while that it would have been ideal to see Star Wars go into a TV Series following the first movie. (Like Battlestar Galactica TOS.) But I guess a series of 12 movies (ideally with the overarching series referred to as "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker", with "Star Wars" as "Episode 1") with the same idea in mind would have been great, too.
If you look at it from that point of view, in Star Wars we are presented with an initial problem--the Emperor has dissolved the Senate and therefore ended the Old Republic thanks to the Death Star. At the end of the movie, the Death Star is destroyed, ergo the status quo is obviously re-established: no Death Star means the Senate reconvenes.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 19, 2010 21:36:27 GMT -6
If you look at it from that point of view, in Star Wars we are presented with an initial problem--the Emperor has dissolved the Senate and therefore ended the Old Republic thanks to the Death Star. At the end of the movie, the Death Star is destroyed, ergo the status quo is obviously re-established: no Death Star means the Senate reconvenes. That's a good way to look at it. With each episode presenting and solving a problem in that one episode, the problem of the Empire is wrapped up in Star Wars I. Then we can move on to other things. A further thought occurs to me regarding Darth Vader. A number of people have disagreed with my preference to have Vader slain in Star Wars II. I can definitely see where they are coming from, though my preference remains the same. I prefer Darth Vader to be a relatively minor character rather than the central and ultra-powerful figure that he became. This is even evidenced in his appearance, as he got literally shinier with each episode. I'd like to have that go in the opposite direction in Star Wars II: Remember that Darth Vader's ship was damaged at the end of Star Wars I, and he limped off into space. Imagine Darth Vader's armor as battered (similar to Boba Fett) rather than as shiny in Star Wars II. Further imagine him as a bounty hunter who had been employed by Tarkin to get the Death Star tapes. He failed at the job, and his employer was killed. Now Vader's reputation has taken a blow. Now he wants revenge. Though the grapevine he'd hear that Han Solo owed money to an Irishman (not a giant slug) named Jabba the Hutt. Vader could get hired by Jabba to bring either Solo's money or Solo's head to Jabba. Vader would obviously intend the latter, so off he'd go to take-out our band of six heroes. No stormtroopers, Imperial ships, or etc. Just Vader and any other strange allies he might acquire in the course of the movie. And Vader's armor would be battered. He wouldn't be the nigh-invincible Sith Lord of ESB and ROTJ. He'd be a former Jedi-turned-traitor-turned-bounty hunter, and he'd look the part. Admittedly this doesn't have the grandeur of the old Star Wars trilogy. But I'm not looking for grandeur here. I'm looking for pulpy space-fantasy fun. Star Wars II would tie-up the one major loose end of Star Wars I (Vader, who obviously needs to get killed in a lightsabre battle with Luke), and the one minor loose end of Star Wars I (Han owing Jabba money). Speaking of lack of grandeur, I'd want the movies to be medium-budget films, not bank-busting high-budget films. Why? Because Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, and Carrie Fisher get one year older every year, and we can't afford to spend 2 years in post-production. With a Star Wars film released every year, then the 12th and last episode would be released in 1988. The actors would still be young enough to look the part. But if they were released every three years, then we're looking at a release date for episode 12 in...2010! Age catches even the best of us. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 20, 2010 4:40:16 GMT -6
Mark Hamill, Harrison Ford, and Carrie Fisher get one year older every year Random thought: Hollywood seems to have no new ideas and the "remake" seems to be the norm nowadays. I wonder if we'll ever get a Star Wars remake.... |
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Post by premmy on Sept 20, 2010 7:09:12 GMT -6
My "alternative Vader" would be not so much a bounty hunter as a robber baron (medieval, not industrial). He's still the Lord of the Sith, whatever that is, maybe something like a fallen Teutonic order or a crusader kingdom. He holds a certain, not insignificant power in a given region, and occasionally serves the highest bidder as a mercenary.
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Post by barrataria on Sept 20, 2010 7:54:48 GMT -6
Random thought: Hollywood seems to have no new ideas and the "remake" seems to be the norm nowadays. I wonder if we'll ever get a Star Wars remake....  Shame on you Fin! Uwe Boll presents: Star Wars! starring Justin Bieber as Han Solo, Kim Kardashian as Princess Leia, and Pauly Shore as Obi-Wan Kenobi! |
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Post by coffee on Sept 20, 2010 9:26:12 GMT -6
But would that be more a parody of itself than the franchise has already become?
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Post by 18 Spears on Sept 20, 2010 18:58:07 GMT -6
I wonder if we'll ever get a Star Wars remake.... I'd go see it but I think after all the nerdrage over the updated versions that geeks everywhere would simply explode! |
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Post by 18 Spears on Sept 20, 2010 18:58:28 GMT -6
My "alternative Vader" would be not so much a bounty hunter as a robber baron (medieval, not industrial). He's still the Lord of the Sith, whatever that is, maybe something like a fallen Teutonic order or a crusader kingdom. He holds a certain, not insignificant power in a given region, and occasionally serves the highest bidder as a mercenary. This is very much how I imagined it, too. Edit -- I mean how Vader seemed to me in the original 1978 movie. |
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Post by apeloverage on Sept 21, 2010 2:43:57 GMT -6
If they had made the films this way, maybe they would have had a lot of the ideas that went into the Indiana Jones series.
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Post by blackbarn on Oct 20, 2010 9:18:27 GMT -6
On the Vader as a bounty hunter thing...
I was recently reading an article (at the Star Wars official site, oddly enough) about Boba Fett, and in it, there is a quote from Lucas where he actually says Boba was created by splitting off part of his original intentions for Vader. So that theory really does have some weight.
And I assume most of us here know all about how the Vader character developed through the various script drafts. He really was not the major villain, which is why Lucas was surprised by his popularity later. He had memories of all those drafts and knew what his ideas had been for the character.
After McQuarrie drew the breath mask on him, and Lucas then combined the character with his concept for a cyborg (which had been in some of the early drafts, as a different character), they created this monster of an iconic villain. It was almost luck, and most assuredly a combination of ideas from different people that made Vader so powerful a character onscreen.
I really like Vader, and would not personally want him to vanish from the series early on (nor would I want the Empire gone until the end of the serial.) I think he'd make a great recurring villain, even if he was still only working for various "main" bad guys of the Empire. Kind of like Boba Fett, only with the Force at his command as well.
Geoffrey, I am totally on your side with the ongoing serial idea though. While I love Empire Strikes Back and think it's a great, great movie, it does take Star Wars in a new direction, forcing it into a more character driven epic saga instead of a rollicking adventure series. For those of us who were huge fans before there even was an Empire Strikes Back, there is just a whole different feel to the original that was never recaptured.
I would recommend the Al Williamson comic strip stories to anyone who has not seen them, however. They do tie in with the movies, yet retain a strong sense of episodic adventure... just Luke, Han, Leia and friends going on Alliance missions and tangling with various original bad guys (and sometimes Vader, etc.) And of course, the Marvel comics, especially pre-ESB, were also more episodic and had some great ideas.
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to the yelling and ranting. These days I rationalize the kow-towing to the Emperor in the second two films as part of "Vader's plan" described in SW, which isn't ever expressly detailed but seems to involve replacing the Emperor and training his own dark side apprentices. 
) I like the fact that at the end of an episode we end up with the characters roughly the same as the episode began. No long-term angst or life-changing moments, but you could almost watch any of the TOS episodes in any order and not feel like you missed something. If McCoy falls in love in one episode, he's fine by the next. Done, let's move onto the next adventure.
