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Post by havard on Jul 17, 2023 1:31:50 GMT -6
The Blackmoor Trademark has been claimed by the David Arneson Estate and has been licensed to the company called Fellowship of the Thing Ltd. The company has previously created the documentary Secrets of Blackmoor. More details. -Havard |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 10, 2023 15:07:44 GMT -6
This happened after Justin Lanasa filed to trademark "Blackmoor". Griffith Morgan then established this LLC, which is headed up by his business partner, and they control this LLC; from what I've been told, Malia - while listed as the head of the corporation in the filing - is not involved with the LLC. Mr. Morgan then persuaded Mr. LaNasa to withdraw his application for the trademark, and refiled it in the name of the LLC.
It'll be interesting to see what happens with this. I was told by Malia that Mr. Morgan is in possession of the boxes of Dave's papers that Dave had left at his dad's house, and which Malia found when John went into hospice care.
Unfortunately, this has also figured into the rivalry of the 'Duelling Dave Cons' here in the Twin Cities, with mutterings of legal action and all sorts of feuding. I have no patience for this kind of thing, so I'm sitting the whole thing out. It's sad to watch Dave and his work getting lost in the melee.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 10, 2023 15:12:19 GMT -6
I have no idea about the "Dueling Dave Cons" and as such would sit it out as well. What I would love to see is publication of any of Dave's notes and/or papers. Sort of a "First Fantasy Campaign II" perhaps. I would hope that such a publication would be as close to an exact replica as possible, as opposed to a "let's clean it up" kind of thing. (Some of the Holmes papers seem to be a clean-up.)
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 10, 2023 15:36:19 GMT -6
Agreed. I'd love to see more of Dave's original work out where people can see it. Same with Gary and Phil, for that matter, as those years in the middle 1970s were an incredibly rich stew of creativity.
The convention situation here is that a local D&D fan started a convention called 'Dave Con', and caused quite a ruckus; he had Tim Kask and Ernie Gygax as his headliners, which didn't go over well as both of them were quite vehement critics of Dave; the fan was totally unaware of the past history between Dave and quite a few of the Twin Cities crowd and Gary, the Blues, and the Lake Geneva crowd. Mr. Morgan announced that he would be organizing his own 'Dave Con', and things got very acrimonious very quickly. I got caught in the firing line, because I'm supposedly a Big Name In Gaming (which I'd dispute) and can put on a good show with my big multi-player pseudo-Braunstein games, I've become very disenchanted with the whole situation, and as a result I stay away from the local convention scene. (I don't need the hassle and stress; I'm finally retired, and wanting some peace and quiet in my old age.) Dave has been getting lost in all the posturing and bombast, and I think that's the saddest thing that could be happening to somebody I liked and respected.
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Post by havard on Aug 24, 2023 14:10:41 GMT -6
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Post by havard on Aug 25, 2023 6:22:07 GMT -6
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 27, 2023 10:43:31 GMT -6
Thank you for keeping us updated!
The local situation has gotten past absurd and is now well into the bizarre. All of the 'endorsed by the Estate of' statements are a little disingenuous; Mr. Morgan and his business partner are the people who registered the corporation, and so are 'sanctioning' and 'endorsing' themselves. There has been very little transparency regarding the relationship with Malia, which a number of us 'old folks' would like to see clarified. They are loyal to her and to Blackmoor, and are not very happy with what they're being told and with what's going on.
Confusion is the order of the day on the local gaming forums and blogs; comments about this event have not been all that positive, as this event is the same weekend as Gamehole Con, Confabulous, and several other local fannish / gaming conventions.
I am not going. We had to deal with so much drama at last year's event, with one of the Very Big Names causing a ruckus because he wasn't getting any players and threatening to go home if nobody signed up for his game. While I understand his frustration - only six people showed up to the event - interrupting Bob Meyer's Blackmoor game *twice* about this was both embarrassing and downright rude. I don't like drama at the best of times - I have no patience for it - and last year's muddled try at an event was just way too much drama for way too little substance.
For me, it's just sad to watch all this happening.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 27, 2023 14:46:44 GMT -6
...so much drama at last year's event, with one of the Very Big Names causing a ruckus because he wasn't getting any players and threatening to go home if nobody signed up for his game. While I understand his frustration - only six people showed up to the event - interrupting Bob Meyer's Blackmoor game *twice* about this was both embarrassing and downright rude. Well, that is disturbing. I don't know which Very Big Name was involved, but that seems to be poor sportsmanship to disrupt another person's game just because yours wasn't well attended. Honestly, it could have been just that folks didn't know what options were available, or something similarly innocent. Sorry that folks aren't playing well with others, as this makes the entire industry look bad.  |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 27, 2023 16:40:41 GMT -6
I'm not naming names because I was quite shocked by the incident; I've known this person for a very long time, and I felt bad for everyone involved. It was one of those moments where one stands there wondering just what happened, and then wanting to sink down through the floor in shame and embarrassment.
The problem was that there was no organization for the event. Bob just waded in and started running his Blackmoor game because the six people who showed up were all looking around for something to do. Nobody took a moment to explain to Bob, his two co-GMs, the players, or the VIP what was happening. No schedules, no sign-up sheets, no nothing. We were all left on our own to try and get things going; the six people who showed up were the once setting up the tables and chairs for the rest of the non-event while I was setting up the tables for Bob and his co-GMs.
Unfortunately, the VIP has been getting a lot of ego-stroking from the dueling event organizers, as he's become one of the very few Big Names from Ye Olden Days who shows up to these events. A number of the older folks have had this happen to them, from various event organizers, and with the pronounced emphasis on getting celebrities at these small events to be added to the advertising it seems that the hype has gone to their heads. It's no longer about Dave Arneson and Blackmoor, it's all about the Big Names on the web page.
I'd support an event for Dave and his world; I'm doing it for Bob Meyer's trip to Gary Con, next year, because I think it's worth it. I have real reason to go to that convention or any other, these days, but I'm funding Bob's trip because I think that what he has to say is worth listening to.
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 27, 2023 16:47:05 GMT -6
Appreciated. While I'd like to know, it's not my business and I respect the fact that you are reporting general facts without specific names. Sad when those things happen and I hope it didn't cause too much backlash anywhere. |
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 27, 2023 18:51:11 GMT -6
So, I have a question: Do convention organizers have any interest in perpetuating the Arneson gaming style? I mean, if not, then it should be no bother to organize Blackmoor games for the players who are left (+onlookers) in a way that makes them comfortable i.e., nothing more ambitious than a night out for drinks. But, if they DO want to keep the Blackmoor ways alive into the next generation, then new referees (many) are needed. Organizers should be looking to promote a campaign starter as well as workshops and tutorials, virtually, inside a platform like Roll20. These events need to be live streamed! Finally, a successful YouTube host with a built in gaming audience and a soft spot for Arnesonia should be tapped to promote it. havard could run the whole thing from his bedroom and if Griff ever releases part 2 of Secrets of Blackmoor; attendees could watch an exclusive stream with Wesley, Maker, and Svenson live-chatting alongside. Because, one day the original players will be either unwilling and/or unable to turn out for in-person conventions; and wouldn't it have been nicer to plan for that, in advance? |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 28, 2023 3:55:55 GMT -6
So, I have a question: Do convention organizers have any interest in perpetuating the Arneson gaming style? Unclear if "the organizers" do this, but Bob Meyer runs something like "an homage to Blackmoor" with a distinctly Arnesonian vibe. (Bob is one of the original players, and he knows what it was like.) I suspect most of the convention will be pretty generic, but there is a definite Arneson connection in the Twin Cities that hasn't left yet. |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 28, 2023 12:36:58 GMT -6
Appreciated. While I'd like to know, it's not my business and I respect the fact that you are reporting general facts without specific names. Sad when those things happen and I hope it didn't cause too much backlash anywhere. I will send you a PM. |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 28, 2023 12:44:05 GMT -6
So, I have a question: Do convention organizers have any interest in perpetuating the Arneson gaming style? I mean, if not, then it should be no bother to organize Blackmoor games for the players who are left (+onlookers) in a way that makes them comfortable i.e., nothing more ambitious than a night out for drinks. But, if they DO want to keep the Blackmoor ways alive into the next generation, then new referees (many) are needed. Organizers should be looking to promote a campaign starter as well as workshops and tutorials, virtually, inside a platform like Roll20. These events need to be live streamed! Finally, a successful YouTube host with a built in gaming audience and a soft spot for Arnesonia should be tapped to promote it. havard could run the whole thing from his bedroom and if Griff ever releases part 2 of Secrets of Blackmoor; attendees could watch an exclusive stream with Wesley, Maker, and Svenson live-chatting alongside. Because, one day the original players will be either unwilling and/or unable to turn out for in-person conventions; and wouldn't it have been nicer to plan for that, in advance? Short answer: Yes. Bob Meyer has been invited down to Gary Con next year for the 50th anniversary of D&D. He'll be in the 'Legends of Role-Playing' Room, with his two 'apprentice' Blackmoor GMs. Long answer: Bob wants to tell the largest number of people that he can about Blackmoor and the way Dave played. Bob was one of the very first Blackmoor players, and inherited Dave's campaign when Dave passed away. Bob has found a couple of local people who game the way he and Dave did, and he's bringing them down to Gary Con to introduce them to the larger gaming world. Both Luke Gygax and Paul Stormberg are behind this, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is and funding the trip. Bob is feeling very time-pressured. He's not getting any younger, is in poor health, and wants to pass his experience and knowledge along to the new generation as quickly as he can. Since one of his 'successor GMs' used to be the social media manager for Gygax Magazine, all of what you say will be happening as we move forward. If I may be blunt, Bob wants to move quickly on this and so we are. |
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 28, 2023 17:07:21 GMT -6
This is good news. I have high hopes for Bob Meyers' co-dm's. If Gary-Con goes well for them, they may well be emboldened to ref Blackmoor tables (both virtual and in-person) independent of Bob, in the future. I'm not knocking nostalgia. It's a great place to visit. But, you can't live there. Blackmoor, the play style, has to thrive. Chirine, thank you for your service (and robertthebald, of course). It's proselytizing of the most noble kind. |
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Post by captainjapan on Aug 28, 2023 17:11:30 GMT -6
Just had a thought: Does Dave Arneson have grandchildren? I bet they might like to know what playing in Blackmoor is like, one day
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nagnar
Level 1 Medium
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Post by nagnar on Aug 29, 2023 0:53:52 GMT -6
So, I have a question: Do convention organizers have any interest in perpetuating the Arneson gaming style? I mean, if not, then it should be no bother to organize Blackmoor games for the players who are left (+onlookers) in a way that makes them comfortable i.e., nothing more ambitious than a night out for drinks. But, if they DO want to keep the Blackmoor ways alive into the next generation, then new referees (many) are needed. Organizers should be looking to promote a campaign starter as well as workshops and tutorials, virtually, inside a platform like Roll20. These events need to be live streamed! Finally, a successful YouTube host with a built in gaming audience and a soft spot for Arnesonia should be tapped to promote it. havard could run the whole thing from his bedroom and if Griff ever releases part 2 of Secrets of Blackmoor; attendees could watch an exclusive stream with Wesley, Maker, and Svenson live-chatting alongside. Because, one day the original players will be either unwilling and/or unable to turn out for in-person conventions; and wouldn't it have been nicer to plan for that, in advance? Short answer: Yes. Bob Meyer has been invited down to Gary Con next year for the 50th anniversary of D&D. He'll be in the 'Legends of Role-Playing' Room, with his two 'apprentice' Blackmoor GMs. Long answer: Bob wants to tell the largest number of people that he can about Blackmoor and the way Dave played. Bob was one of the very first Blackmoor players, and inherited Dave's campaign when Dave passed away. Bob has found a couple of local people who game the way he and Dave did, and he's bringing them down to Gary Con to introduce them to the larger gaming world. Both Luke Gygax and Paul Stormberg are behind this, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is and funding the trip. Bob is feeling very time-pressured. He's not getting any younger, is in poor health, and wants to pass his experience and knowledge along to the new generation as quickly as he can. Since one of his 'successor GMs' used to be the social media manager for Gygax Magazine, all of what you say will be happening as we move forward. If I may be blunt, Bob wants to move quickly on this and so we are. Have you considered getting these sessions recorded and any relevant introductory pieces written up or recorded? My thinking is that if they are available on the internet you could reach more people and have these recordings of actual play available for posterity
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 29, 2023 7:59:07 GMT -6
This is good news. I have high hopes for Bob Meyers' co-dm's. If Gary-Con goes well for them, they may well be emboldened to ref Blackmoor tables (both virtual and in-person) independent of Bob, in the future. I'm not knocking nostalgia. It's a great place to visit. But, you can't live there. Blackmoor, the play style, has to thrive. Chirine, thank you for your service (and robertthebald , of course). It's proselytizing of the most noble kind. Same here. I'm supporting Bob because I think it's worthwhile to show people how we and Dave played back in the day. You're welcome.  |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 29, 2023 8:00:58 GMT -6
Just had a thought: Does Dave Arneson have grandchildren? I bet they might like to know what playing in Blackmoor is like, one day Yes. Malia and her family are very private people, and while they do occasionally show up to things in honor of Dave they stay well areal from the local gaming scene. If they want to see what it's all about, Bob is in touch with her and will run games for her and her family if she wants him to. |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 29, 2023 8:03:23 GMT -6
Have you considered getting these sessions recorded and any relevant introductory pieces written up or recorded? My thinking is that if they are available on the internet you could reach more people and have these recordings of actual play available for posterity
Yes. I have the capability to do both video and audio recording; Bob and I have discussed doing this. Bob has some very strong concerns over the current legal situation that's developed, and wants to avoid possible issues. We agree with you, and we'll see what can be done. |
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Post by Desparil on Aug 29, 2023 17:03:42 GMT -6
Have you considered getting these sessions recorded and any relevant introductory pieces written up or recorded? My thinking is that if they are available on the internet you could reach more people and have these recordings of actual play available for posterity
Yes. I have the capability to do both video and audio recording; Bob and I have discussed doing this. Bob has some very strong concerns over the current legal situation that's developed, and wants to avoid possible issues. We agree with you, and we'll see what can be done. I must be out of the loop, what legal situation are you referring to? This is the first I've ever heard of there being any problem with recording sessions, barring any odd situation where someone did it without the consent of one of the parties in a two-party consent state. |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 29, 2023 20:56:56 GMT -6
I must be out of the loop, what legal situation are you referring to? This is the first I've ever heard of there being any problem with recording sessions, barring any odd situation where someone did it without the consent of one of the parties in a two-party consent state. There have been some statements and legal claims made on-line about who has what rights to what IP, in regards to the Dave Con / ArneCon / Arne Con gyrations. I doubt that any of them would get any traction in any litigation, but I'm not a lawyer and would prefer that all of the parties involved would settle down and talk to each other instead of posturing on the Internet. Recording game sessions is easy; I used to work in the video business, and if everyone signs the release it's fine. The issues that have come up are regarding the eventual use of any recordings, and under what conditions. Bob and I don't what any drama, etc.; we're here to run games and have some fun. |
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Post by Desparil on Aug 29, 2023 21:30:59 GMT -6
I must be out of the loop, what legal situation are you referring to? This is the first I've ever heard of there being any problem with recording sessions, barring any odd situation where someone did it without the consent of one of the parties in a two-party consent state. There have been some statements and legal claims made on-line about who has what rights to what IP, in regards to the Dave Con / ArneCon / Arne Con gyrations. I doubt that any of them would get any traction in any litigation, but I'm not a lawyer and would prefer that all of the parties involved would settle down and talk to each other instead of posturing on the Internet. Recording game sessions is easy; I used to work in the video business, and if everyone signs the release it's fine. The issues that have come up are regarding the eventual use of any recordings, and under what conditions. Bob and I don't what any drama, etc.; we're here to run games and have some fun. Oh, were you looking to sell the recordings? I assumed the idea of recordings was just to have the videos available publicly for posterity. Plenty of people record sessions playing material copyrighted by WotC (or CCP/White Wolf or other companies) and put it up on YouTube and/or livestream it with no problem. I've heard of some video game companies making content claims on the ad revenue of people playing their games, but for a niche area of interest like this I imagine there'd be like a whole 7 dollars at stake. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 30, 2023 4:20:02 GMT -6
I don't think the plan would be to sell the recordings, but it seems like several folks are sort of laying claim to Arneson type things right now (chirinebakal just listed three groups doing Arneson-style conventions) and one of those has already made a film about the early days of Blackmoor, so what if someone decided to take those videos and put them into a film or something like that? How do the rights for this work? I suspect those are questions in Bob's mind at the moment. If folks are fighting over rights could he get caught in the crossfire somehow? This is all speculation on my part.
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 30, 2023 9:15:53 GMT -6
Oh, were you looking to sell the recordings? I assumed the idea of recordings was just to have the videos available publicly for posterity. Plenty of people record sessions playing material copyrighted by WotC (or CCP/White Wolf or other companies) and put it up on YouTube and/or livestream it with no problem. I've heard of some video game companies making content claims on the ad revenue of people playing their games, but for a niche area of interest like this I imagine there'd be like a whole 7 dollars at stake. No; we wanted to have recordings for archival purposes. Bob and I have no commercial or other money-making interests. This goes back to the spring of 1976, when I first started archiving gaming stuff; I'm fascinated by the creative process at work, and so I try to archive / save as much as I can as it goes by in the game sessions. What has happened over the past decade is that there are people who believe that there is a ton of money in our old games, and have convinced themselves that 'getting control' of an IP is the ticket to 'fame and fortune'. They tend to get cranky and dramatic, and we're not interested in the drama. We're considered 'weird' by these people, as we want to get information out to people and we're not concerned with our own 'fame and fortune'. My personal famous quote was "Don't you want to be famous?", and that particular person was utterly baffled by my reply of "No, I want to run games." |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 30, 2023 9:17:09 GMT -6
I don't think the plan would be to sell the recordings, but it seems like several folks are sort of laying claim to Arneson type things right now (chirinebakal just listed three groups doing Arneson-style conventions) and one of those has already made a film about the early days of Blackmoor, so what if someone decided to take those videos and put them into a film or something like that? How do the rights for this work? I suspect those are questions in Bob's mind at the moment. If folks are fighting over rights could he get caught in the crossfire somehow? This is all speculation on my part. Your speculation is right on the mark; this is exactly the situation for us. I've had some long and expensive talks with IP lawyers about this. |
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Post by robertsconley on Aug 30, 2023 13:15:40 GMT -6
Long answer: Bob wants to tell the largest number of people that he can about Blackmoor and the way Dave played. Bob was one of the very first Blackmoor players, and inherited Dave's campaign when Dave passed away. Bob has found a couple of local people who game the way he and Dave did, and he's bringing them down to Gary Con to introduce them to the larger gaming world. Both Luke Gygax and Paul Stormberg are behind this, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is and funding the trip. Any way you can provide a short summary of what the difference is? As if I sat down for a session? Just want to have enough of an understanding of some context. |
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Post by robertsconley on Aug 30, 2023 13:29:43 GMT -6
What has happened over the past decade is that there are people who believe that there is a ton of money in our old games, and have convinced themselves that 'getting control' of an IP is the ticket to 'fame and fortune'. They tend to get cranky and dramatic, and we're not interested in the drama. We're considered 'weird' by these people, as we want to get information out to people and we're not concerned with our own 'fame and fortune'. Speaking from my experience as an OSR publisher from the beginning. As well as somebody who writes a lot about sandbox campaigns and hexcrawl formatted settings like Judges Guild's Wilderlands. This is the best approach. There is no sure ticket to fame and fortune. However adopting an attitude of "Hey look at this interesting thing I am doing." combined with "OK, I understand it's not for you" for the naysayers works out well. |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 31, 2023 15:29:50 GMT -6
Long answer: Bob wants to tell the largest number of people that he can about Blackmoor and the way Dave played. Bob was one of the very first Blackmoor players, and inherited Dave's campaign when Dave passed away. Bob has found a couple of local people who game the way he and Dave did, and he's bringing them down to Gary Con to introduce them to the larger gaming world. Both Luke Gygax and Paul Stormberg are behind this, and I'm putting my money where my mouth is and funding the trip. Any way you can provide a short summary of what the difference is? As if I sat down for a session? Just want to have enough of an understanding of some context. Dave, in my own experience, was what I think is now called 'open sandbox play'. Dave would have several 'adventures' handy, and he'd let the players choose what direction they wanted to go. Dave was a master of whatever chaos that the players would cause, and would roll with whatever happened; he was very, very good at 'on the fly' invention. Gary was, again in my experience, more 'linear' and more organized as a GM. He could roll with whatever the players came up with, but was more organized and a lot more focused on the over-all campaign. Phil was, in may time with him, very very 'linear' and very much wanting the game to stay within his world-setting. while his campaign started out as a miniatures campaign and morphed into an RPG campaign because that's what his original players wanted, he stayed really tight in the over-all 'plot line' of how his world was running; we, as players, were mostly there to provide 'local color' for his novels - which were his first love, his gaming being more or less his 'poker night with the boys' and secondary to his world-setting. We didn't mind; our group was a lot more interested in exploring the world, unlike the other group which was much more into player vs, player intrigues and fights. Does this help, at all? |
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Post by chirinebakal on Aug 31, 2023 15:30:12 GMT -6
What has happened over the past decade is that there are people who believe that there is a ton of money in our old games, and have convinced themselves that 'getting control' of an IP is the ticket to 'fame and fortune'. They tend to get cranky and dramatic, and we're not interested in the drama. We're considered 'weird' by these people, as we want to get information out to people and we're not concerned with our own 'fame and fortune'. Speaking from my experience as an OSR publisher from the beginning. As well as somebody who writes a lot about sandbox campaigns and hexcrawl formatted settings like Judges Guild's Wilderlands. This is the best approach. There is no sure ticket to fame and fortune. However adopting an attitude of "Hey look at this interesting thing I am doing." combined with "OK, I understand it's not for you" for the naysayers works out well. Agreed. |
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