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Post by machfront on May 4, 2023 6:52:12 GMT -6
Ya’ll are gonna have to help me or I’ll spend money I likely ought not.
It seems cool….but also superfluous to someone who uses a clone of the 3LBBs and loves and uses RISUS or iteration(s) of the Fighting Fantasy rpg nigh upon its simplest form.
Tell me why someone like me will love it or why I may never ever need/want it.
Help! Heheh
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Post by hamurai on May 4, 2023 8:17:47 GMT -6
I honestly never understood the hype. There are some nice ideas in there, but hardly anything that I haven't read someplace else. There are so many rules-light games like Knave out there, free, fitting on a sheet or two; it makes me wonder why I'd want that blown up to the size of a book.
I don't know Knave's second edition and I've never played the first, though. I have other favourites in the niche of rules-light OSR games.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 4, 2023 8:22:13 GMT -6
I saw an ad for this on Facebook, and as far as I can tell I have never heard of this game prior to the ad.  |
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Post by geoffrey on May 4, 2023 9:34:19 GMT -6
Yeah, I had never heard of this game before this thread.  I glanced at the kickstarter for it, and it didn't grab me. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 4, 2023 10:26:23 GMT -6
Knave 1E is a great tiny game for one-shot online or convention play. I doubt it has the legs for campaigns.
Knave 2E seems like the same basic game with a ton of random setting generation tables. Which is great if you need that sort of thing (like Shadowdark), but I already have all that - admittedly scattered through lots and lots of books and PDFs.
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Post by talysman on May 4, 2023 10:35:15 GMT -6
I've heard the name for at least a year, but don't know any hard details. I know I looked up some hard details at one point and decided I didn't need anything like that, just like I've looked up the hard details on a bunch of other so-called "OSR" games that are really just someone's lightweight dungeoncrawl game that emphasizes one or two things the author heard about old school games. Once I look at them and see no reason for me to get involved, I forget all the details.
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Post by jeffb on May 4, 2023 11:48:01 GMT -6
Knave 1E is a great tiny game for one-shot online or convention play. I doubt it has the legs for campaigns. Knave 2E seems like the same basic game with a ton of random setting generation tables. Which is great if you need that sort of thing (like Shadowdark), but I already have all that - admittedly scattered through lots and lots of books and PDFs. This. The 1st edition is like 4 or 8 pages long. I picked it up on drive thru when it was on sale or something because of the hype a few years back. It's probably good for a convention game or a rules light simple pickup game. That said, we all probably know d&d rules of one sort or another so well, we can run a quick and light one shot off the top of our heads for a newcomer or seasoned players. |
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Post by rredmond on May 4, 2023 15:25:28 GMT -6
That said, we all probably know d&d rules of one sort or another so well, we can run a quick and light one shot off the top of our heads for a newcomer or seasoned players. Truth! |
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Post by tdenmark on May 4, 2023 16:12:26 GMT -6
Nay.
This is one of those games whose rules can be summarized in a page. And anyone whose ran an RPG for any length of time could just do this off the top of their head anyways. Light most rules-light games it is hardly essential.
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jamiltron
Level 2 Seer
Always looking for games/player in West LA
Posts: 44
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Post by jamiltron on May 4, 2023 16:34:37 GMT -6
Much like Maze Rats, I think the tables are fantastic. I've played Knave 1e here and there, and as a ruleset, it's whatever, but as a collection of tables to be inspired from, it's one of my favorites.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 4, 2023 18:24:11 GMT -6
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jamiltron
Level 2 Seer
Always looking for games/player in West LA
Posts: 44
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Post by jamiltron on May 4, 2023 19:43:09 GMT -6
Its worth noting that Knave is licensed CC-BY, so you can check it out for free online. For example, here's a really bad-looking version of it formatted like a 5e book  www.gmbinder.com/share/-LZGcbbCQaqjIV0TmLx3 The preview for 2e on the Kickstarter should also be a good example of the kinds of tables Ben is putting into the new edition. I find them super useful, they are very Tome-of-Adventure-Design-ish, if that style works for you. |
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Post by tkdco2 on May 4, 2023 22:24:31 GMT -6
It's a good game. I've played it online with one of my Discord groups. I shared a video about the new edition kickstarter, and my group is pretty excited about it.
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Post by Finarvyn on May 5, 2023 3:49:05 GMT -6
(1) This thread was just SCREAMING for a poll, so now there is one. (2) I kind of like the 5E layout. My players might play it, thinking they were playing 5E.  |
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Post by rredmond on May 5, 2023 4:16:27 GMT -6
It's a good game. I've played it online with one of my Discord groups. I shared a video about the new edition kickstarter, and my group is pretty excited about it. You did a video? If so, link please. |
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Post by cadriel on May 5, 2023 6:03:39 GMT -6
I'm getting it, but mostly because I cannot resist old school books full of useful charts. I particularly like Maze Rats for its tables so I'm happy to pick it up. The Knave game itself is almost an afterthought.
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Post by machfront on May 5, 2023 7:19:10 GMT -6
I suppose one reason I’m reticent it because I prefer class-based games, and when I want ‘skills’ I want such super lite. I mean, insanely lite. Like…RISUS or Fighting Fantasy kinda lite.
But Knave seems to oddly focus so much more on equipment as per abilities. So, it weirds me out and throws me for a loop.
Maybe I’m missing something or not appreciating something fully. I’m uncertain.
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Post by cadriel on May 5, 2023 8:09:12 GMT -6
I suppose one reason I’m reticent it because I prefer class-based games, and when I want ‘skills’ I want such super lite. I mean, insanely lite. Like…RISUS or Fighting Fantasy kinda lite. But Knave seems to oddly focus so much more on equipment as per abilities. So, it weirds me out and throws me for a loop. Maybe I’m missing something or not appreciating something fully. I’m uncertain. I think the emphasis on equipment is something that came out of simplified, slot-based encumbrance systems that became popular in OSR hacks. Knave leaned into that and used these slots as a way to turn resource management into a central part of the game, building a lot of its advancement around it. I'm also not wild about it but it apparently works decently in practice. |
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Post by barbaribunny on May 5, 2023 8:15:25 GMT -6
I've run its 1st edition, and we had fun; but I don't think the system really contributed much.
For me, the Black Hack brings a lot more character to rules-light OSR. It has its own mood and feels like it's own thing in a way that Knave simply doesn't. If I want something even lighter than the Black Hack, Olde House Rules games are more freeform and open than Knave. If I want something light that isn't class-based, then games derived from Traveller (Swords of Cepheus and Barbaric!) will always do that better than something built on a D&D chassis. That doesn't really leave a lot of room for Knave. Nothing against it or Ben Milton, but I won't be getting it.
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Post by tkdco2 on May 5, 2023 15:44:47 GMT -6
It's a good game. I've played it online with one of my Discord groups. I shared a video about the new edition kickstarter, and my group is pretty excited about it. You did a video? If so, link please. Sorry, I misspoke. I didn't make the video; I just shared the one I watched with my Discord group. Here it is. The channel is worth subscribing to. Lots of great stuff. |
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Post by rredmond on May 5, 2023 16:12:32 GMT -6
Nah you didn’t misspeak. You said “shared” not created. More excited by stuff our members here do than others. But I’ll watch it. Thanks! |
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Post by tdenmark on May 5, 2023 21:28:43 GMT -6
Much like Maze Rats, I think the tables are fantastic. I've played Knave 1e here and there, and as a ruleset, it's whatever, but as a collection of tables to be inspired from, it's one of my favorites. As far as books of tables go nothing beats the classic Ready Ref Sheets. I've also found Toolbox by AEG to be indispensable. While the revised edition Complete Toolbox is theoretically better with more tables, I've always found the original first edition to be ideal. I have no interest in or need for Knave. |
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Post by machfront on May 6, 2023 5:25:19 GMT -6
I suppose one reason I’m reticent it because I prefer class-based games, and when I want ‘skills’ I want such super lite. I mean, insanely lite. Like…RISUS or Fighting Fantasy kinda lite. But Knave seems to oddly focus so much more on equipment as per abilities. So, it weirds me out and throws me for a loop. Maybe I’m missing something or not appreciating something fully. I’m uncertain. I think the emphasis on equipment is something that came out of simplified, slot-based encumbrance systems that became popular in OSR hacks. Knave leaned into that and used these slots as a way to turn resource management into a central part of the game, building a lot of its advancement around it. I'm also not wild about it but it apparently works decently in practice. Yeah. That’s what I figured…and ‘feared’. I’m in the extreme minority that I ‘use’ D&D as a fantasy gaming engine…rather than ‘playing D&D as it’s own game’, so I care little to nothing about resource management. It did seem the equipment stuff may be leaning towards that. So…yeah… I guess it’s not my bag after all. |
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Post by machfront on May 6, 2023 5:30:23 GMT -6
Much like Maze Rats, I think the tables are fantastic. I've played Knave 1e here and there, and as a ruleset, it's whatever, but as a collection of tables to be inspired from, it's one of my favorites. As far as books of tables go nothing beats the classic Ready Ref Sheets. I've also found Toolbox by AEG to be indispensable. While the revised edition Complete Toolbox is theoretically better with more tables, I've always found the original first edition to be ideal. I have no interest in or need for Knave. Yes!!! Ready Ref Sheets is the greatest! I was so so very lucky to buy a few new, old stock copies from Tadashi when he offered them at cut rate prices back in around about 2011. I wish there was a better pdf and wish there was a POD. It’s a wonderful, solid resource, and really and easily inspires imagination. |
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Post by jeffb on May 6, 2023 6:01:57 GMT -6
I think the emphasis on equipment is something that came out of simplified, slot-based encumbrance systems that became popular in OSR hacks. Knave leaned into that and used these slots as a way to turn resource management into a central part of the game, building a lot of its advancement around it. I'm also not wild about it but it apparently works decently in practice. Yeah. That’s what I figured…and ‘feared’. I’m in the extreme minority that I ‘use’ D&D as a fantasy gaming engine…rather than ‘playing D&D as it’s own game’, so I care little to nothing about resource management. It did seem the equipment stuff may be leaning towards that. So…yeah… I guess it’s not my bag after all. Yep, also am not into the resource management focus in any D&D/OSR game. Black Hack does it in a fun gamist way (resource dice) , but counting torches and rations is not my thing and never has been. Same for Vancian magic. |
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Post by geoffrey on May 6, 2023 7:57:40 GMT -6
If I were to try one of these new-fangled OSR games, I would plunk for the Black Hack simply because of its catchy name. |
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rayotus
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 123
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Post by rayotus on May 7, 2023 8:38:39 GMT -6
I'm a fan of these types of games. My favorites are Into the Odd, Black Sword Hack, and Troika. I'm buying Knave for four reasons. In order, they are:
It's a Classless system - I love those because they allow/encourage a greater variety of character concepts
The Tables - I especially like that he has bolted on the Maze Rats spell system to Knave.
I trust Ben. I think his review videos are boring, but he's a solid "thinker" and runs his games endlessly, often with 5th graders (tough audience!). I know the product will be playable and good.
It's a light system built for running classic modules.
So yeah, I'm buying. I get that elegant, streamlined/light rules systems aren't for everyone. YMMV is kind an obvious/always caveat. I do think, however, people who say they won't sustain a long campaign are incorrect. It does vary from group to group though so maybe they mean "I don't think I or my group would be interested in, or capable of making a good long-term campaign with this rules set." I know lots of groups (some of them I know personally) who have played super simple rulesets for years on end.
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skars
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 407
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Post by skars on May 7, 2023 9:16:11 GMT -6
I'm a fan of these types of games. My favorites are Into the Odd, Black Sword Hack, and Troika. I'm buying Knave for four reasons. In order, they are: It's a Classless system - I love those because they allow/encourage a greater variety of character concepts The Tables - I especially like that he has bolted on the Maze Rats spell system to Knave. I trust Ben. I think his review videos are boring, but he's a solid "thinker" and runs his games endlessly, often with 5th graders (tough audience!). I know the product will be playable and good. It's a light system built for running classic modules. So yeah, I'm buying. I get that elegant, streamlined/light rules systems aren't for everyone. YMMV is kind an obvious/always caveat. I do think, however, people who say they won't sustain a long campaign are incorrect. It does vary from group to group though so maybe they mean "I don't think I or my group would be interested in, or capable of making a good long-term campaign with this rules set." I know lots of groups (some of them I know personally) who have played super simple rulesets for years on end. Ray's Troika game at GaryCon was a blast and I think lightweight systems can have legs as well. It really comes down to what the players enjoy. Some folks really dig resource management, others want talent trees and pc advancement, and some just like rolling dice and using funny voices... |
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jamiltron
Level 2 Seer
Always looking for games/player in West LA
Posts: 44
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Post by jamiltron on May 8, 2023 9:38:44 GMT -6
Much like Maze Rats, I think the tables are fantastic. I've played Knave 1e here and there, and as a ruleset, it's whatever, but as a collection of tables to be inspired from, it's one of my favorites. As far as books of tables go nothing beats the classic Ready Ref Sheets. I've also found Toolbox by AEG to be indispensable. While the revised edition Complete Toolbox is theoretically better with more tables, I've always found the original first edition to be ideal. I have no interest in or need for Knave. Don't get me wrong, I love both of those products. I just love having lots of options for tables to rotate through my games. But I understand sticking to a concise collection as well, I'm just a "more is better" kind of person when it comes to potential sources of inspiration. |
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Post by cadriel on May 8, 2023 12:32:49 GMT -6
Agreed - I'm a great lover of Ready Ref Sheets (and I suspect that Ben Milton is as well, he's far from a stranger to old school products). I want as many of these toolkits as possible, I get a lot out of having fresh and different tables to pull from. They do great for finding new inspiration. Also, Maze Rats in particular is just such a good set of tables that I'm really excited about having it in print.
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