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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 23, 2022 19:12:36 GMT -6
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Post by hamurai on Dec 23, 2022 23:54:10 GMT -6
It's used to "conceal... as", that makes it clear for me it's an illusion.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 24, 2022 4:03:42 GMT -6
I agree it's intended to be an illusion. The naming might be misleading - I always assumed this was derived from the Chainmail spell Concealment which is more obvious about its nature. But then Polymorph is a bit ambiguous in it's original Chainmail incarnation, too - it transforms the caster into a 'semblance' of something, does that mean they only look like, e.g., a giant or do they actually turn into a giant as per the later D&D versions of the spell? Oops, going OT but I can't help myself! It just clicked why the spell is called Phantasmal Forces, plural - in Chainmail it literally meant illusionary forces as in troops (a unit or a creature). I love these RPG archaeology rabbitholes...  |
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 24, 2022 10:39:53 GMT -6
It's used to "conceal... as", that makes it clear for me it's an illusion. In M&M, the explanations of only two spells include the word "illusion:" phantasmal forces and hallucinatory terrain. The only other spell in M&M that's illusion(-like) but is not called out explicitly as "illusion" is projected image. Invisibility ( invisibility, 10' radius) is called out as an illusion in AD&D. My mind still can't fully appreciate that designation. I don't see invisibility as an illusion, but if pressed to use the AD&D framework of types of magic (AD&D2 schools of magic), I'd lean into alteration perhaps. The wizard eye spell describes a visual sensor that is invisible, and in AD&D the spell is noted as alteration. I really like the thought that massmorph is a limited transformation of sorts; a specific kind of polymorph for a large group. Massmorph is also the same level (4th) as the other two -morph spells. Yet, the "conceal ... as" phrase lures me to the concept of illusion. Also, massmorph notes the spell remains intact when creatures come in contact with or moving through it, which is language similar to the other two illusions spells, which note that they do end when creatures come into contact with them. Though I like the framework of three illusions -- phantasmal forces, hallucinatory terrain, and projected image -- and three transmogrification spells -- polymorph self, polymorph other, and massmorph. |
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Post by Mordorandor on Dec 26, 2022 9:15:33 GMT -6
Another question about massmorph.
First, the spell explanation.
Massmorph: This spell is used to conceal up to 100 men (or creatures of near man size) as a woods or orchards. The concealed figures may be moved through without being detected as anything other than trees, and it will not effect the spell. It will be negated by a command for the caster or by means of a Dispell Magic spell. Range: 24".
The range outside is up to 240 yards around the Wizard. That's an area of ~407,000 square feet. Quite a bit of space. The piece about "can be moved through" may not be necessary many times.
If massmorph is an illusion, and its duration is "until negated by a command [of] the caster or by means of a Dispell Magic spell," what are the recipients able to do while concealed by the illusion? It's not invisibility, so, can they attack and remain concealed? Speak and remain concealed? Sit down, have some tea and crumpets, chat, and remain concealed? Change formation in preparation for some situation, then move again to change formation in preparation for some other situation, indefinitely, and remain concealed?
I assume any movement would take place within the ~407,000 square feet.
And I assume concealed here means visually. I take it if a referee allows them to move and talk, sound would not be concealed. But then again, if the spell really is that indefinite in duration, and recipients are never detected by those that wander through, what of the occasional sneeze, cough, and so on? I imagine the spell is saying all these minor, non-plot-important details, if you will, are concealed too while these concealed figures are undetected by living things moving among them.
If they remain concealed, and can move about, does the illusion maintain a consistent, unchanging image, or do the trees move about as the people move about?
I'm thinking of a revised massmorph:
This spell causes up to 100 men (or creatures of near man size) to take the shape of woods or orchards. The transformed figures may be moved through without being detected as anything other than trees, and it will not effect the spell. While the figures are transformed, they can see, hear, smell, and feel the world around them. They cannot eat or drink. The spell is negated by a command for the caster or by means of a dispel magic spell. Range: 24".
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Post by Desparil on Dec 26, 2022 9:52:51 GMT -6
Another question about massmorph. First, the spell explanation. Massmorph: This spell is used to conceal up to 100 men (or creatures of near man size) as a woods or orchards. The concealed figures may be moved through without being detected as anything other than trees, and it will not effect the spell. It will be negated by a command for the caster or by means of a Dispell Magic spell. Range: 24". The range outside is up to 240 yards around the Wizard. That's an area of ~407,000 square feet. Quite a bit of space. The piece about "can be moved through" may not be necessary many times. If massmorph is an illusion, and its duration is "until negated by a command [of] the caster or by means of a Dispell Magic spell," what are the recipients able to do while concealed by the illusion? It's not invisibility, so, can they attack and remain concealed? Speak and remain concealed? Sit down, have some tea and crumpets, chat, and remain concealed? Change formation in preparation for some situation, then move again to change formation in preparation for some other situation, indefinitely, and remain concealed? I assume any movement would take place within the ~407,000 square feet. And I assume concealed here means visually. I take it if a referee allows them to move and talk, sound would not be concealed. But then again, if the spell really is that indefinite in duration, and recipients are never detected by those that wander through, what of the occasional sneeze, cough, and so on? I imagine the spell is saying all these minor, non-plot-important details, if you will, are concealed too while these concealed figures are undetected by living things moving among them. If they remain concealed, and can move about, does the illusion maintain a consistent, unchanging image, or do the trees move about as the people move about? I'm thinking of a revised massmorph: This spell causes up to 100 men (or creatures of near man size) to take the shape of woods or orchards. The transformed figures may be moved through without being detected as anything other than trees, and it will not effect the spell. While the figures are transformed, they can see, hear, smell, and feel the world around them. They cannot eat or drink. The spell is negated by a command for the caster or by means of a dispel magic spell. Range: 24". My assumption is that the illusion also silences the recipients, as otherwise errant coughs, sneezes, or just heavy breathing in close proximity could spoil the effect. Also that the visual portion of the illusion covers for incidental movement like fidgeting or shifting or grabbing something from a belt. Otherwise it's basically useless, as unless you have an extremely professional, hand-picked group of elites then any group of 100 dudes is going to have at least one person who inevitably blows it. If the "trees" start moving around, then I think that would be very good grounds for disbelieving the illusion, and of course if they choose to attack then they get the benefit of their ambush and then combat proceeds as normal. |
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Post by hamurai on Dec 27, 2022 1:11:47 GMT -6
This might also be a spell for NPCs, as Geas/Quest seem to be assumed mainly as an excuse why stuff works some way or other. PCs might move through a wood only to discover later that it was a group of monsters. "Haha, twist!" Not sure how often that spell would be useful in a normal campaign.
I mean, the spell is always useless when the enemy knows the area. For example, if you want to stealthily attack a castle, the guards will probably be quite alert if there's a sudden wood popping up outside the castle walls.
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Post by doublejig2 on Dec 27, 2022 2:10:56 GMT -6
A similar question was asked of Sparrowhawk at Roke before the uh unfortunate incident with the shadow! |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 27, 2022 3:18:23 GMT -6
Not sure how often that spell would be useful in a normal campaign. The first time reading Chainmail was an "Aha!" moment for me where some of these spells were concerned. I can see how this would be very useful in battle, but I suspect many spells were just ported over to D&D before anyone realised they were more suited to wargaming than RPGs. |
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Post by hamurai on Dec 28, 2022 0:30:03 GMT -6
The first time reading Chainmail was an "Aha!" moment for me where some of these spells were concerned. I can see how this would be very useful in battle, but I suspect many spells were just ported over to D&D before anyone realised they were more suited to wargaming than RPGs. In that case, allow me to point you and the rest to the Chainmail sub-forum and my yet unanswered thread: Spells: Hallucinatory Terrain, Phantasmal Forces & Polymorph  Also, I guess these imported spells might have their use once you reach the barony tier of the game, if the situation fits. |
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