Spells: Hallucinatory Terrain, Phantasmal Forces & Polymorph

[hamurai]

I'll try to teach CM to some friends soon and I'm going over the rules in detail. We'll be playing a Fantasy game and when I was reading through the spell list I was wondering, how some of these spells would be implemented in the game: Hallucinatory Terrain, Phantasmal Forces & Polymorph. We're trying to stick close to CM "as is", not looking up stuff from later sources. So, how were these spells used?


1.) Hallucinatory Terrain

A spell which makes some form of terrain appear to exist/not exist until it is contacted by a living thing. At this the hallucination dissipates. Woods, rocks, marsh, etc. can be affected by this spell.

First of all: What's the scope of this spell? Does it refer to terrain pieces on the table only, or can I use it to "create" bigger terrain, too?
And: Since this is a Fantasy Supplement, would Undead and Constructs not dispel the illusion? RAW, I could create a bridge for undead units, cross the magma stream and know that a living enemy couldn't follow.


There are two uses for this spell:
         A) Make terrain appear to exist:

If there apparently is a rock formation in a unit's way, it will try to move around it. You can thus delay a unit's advance or make a charge impossible.

If I create a big rock, does it block Line of Sight? 

The other player will of course know that the terrain is an illusion, so the first thing to do would be to run a unit into it. In a narrative game, how could you explain a unit doing that? Especially things like Horsemen riding into a rock....?


     B) Make terrain appear to not exist:

 I can cover up a swamp or river, but the other player would still know it's there. What's the use? How is that kind of use tracked? Is it the ref's job to keep track of all that terrain?


2.) Phantasmal Forces

The creation of the apparition of a unit or creature for four turns, maxi-duration.

So, what does "apparition" mean here? Is it an illusion? An actual summoning would be too powerful for a Complexity 2-spell. 
But if they're illusions, there's no point in creating them, as the other player would know.

The one big use I can think of which would work with the game is, creating units which impose a Morale check on the enemy ("fear aura" we call it), like dragons, (super) heroes, and the like. Again, for a C2-spell I think that's rather powerful?
Another idea I had: Units could be included in the army list "for free" as illusions and behave like normal units for the duration until they engage the enemy and they find out it's just an illusion, then the spell ends.

3.) Polymorph

This allows the user to change himself into the semblance of anything of from his own size to something as large as even a giant. It lasts until the user changes himself back or it is countered.

Again, if I cast that spell during the battle, the other player will know and since the effect is purely cosmetical, what's the point? Is it (again) used to morph into a unit with "fear aura" to cause Morale checks? But with C4, it's easier and handier to cast Phantasmal Forces.

If used before the battle, the Wizard could be deployed using a Proxy miniature and move over the battlefield either overrated or underrated by the enemy, but when would the other player get the idea to counter that spell?



Bottom Line:
At the moment, I see Hallucinatory Terrain as a "Block LoS" spell, Phantasmal Forces and Polymorph as "Break Morale" spells. 



Any insight, maybe from those who played early on?

[Mordorandor]

Oct 28, 2022 5:44:52 GMT -6 hamurai said:

....

So, how were these spells used?

I avoided responded here, because I awaited the responses of "those who played early on" to shed light on "how the spells were used."

I'll now dispense my worthless wisdom in generous proportions, using Chainmail 2e.

1.) Hallucinatory Terrain

A spell which makes some form of terrain appear to exist/not exist until it is contacted by a living thing. At this the hallucination dissipates. Woods, rocks, marsh, etc. can be affected by this spell.

First of all: What's the scope of this spell? Does it refer to terrain pieces on the table only, or can I use it to "create" bigger terrain, too?

This spell exists not in 2e, so your players should not be able to use it.

Ok, let's say it did exist in 2e ...
Terrain is described in the guidelines as being 3" x 5 " postcard size.
Assuming the size of one postcard, make one of these postcards disappear or appear (place one on the playing area).
If you want to make existing terrain bigger, place another 3 x 5 postcard next to one of similar, already existing, terrain. 

And: Since this is a Fantasy Supplement, would Undead and Constructs not dispel the illusion? RAW, I could create a bridge for undead units, cross the magma stream and know that a living enemy couldn't follow.

Until a living creature touches it: I'd say this is a fairly strict criterion, so touch by Undead and Constructs has no effect.
But ah, I see where you might be going with this, and no, the terrain isn't real.
First, if that bridge is a "bridge of rocks or earth," then fine (it can't be a suspension bridge, that's not terrain).
Second, that "natural bridge," if you will, is not real, it's an illusion.
So the Undead will move into the lava and be burnt to a crisp.

There are two uses for this spell:
         A) Make terrain appear to exist:

If there apparently is a rock formation in a unit's way, it will try to move around it. You can thus delay a unit's advance or make a charge impossible.

If I create a big rock, does it block Line of Sight? 

The other player will of course know that the terrain is an illusion, so the first thing to do would be to run a unit into it. In a narrative game, how could you explain a unit doing that? Especially things like Horsemen riding into a rock....?

Even though the opposing player may remember it's an illusion, it still affects his or her forces. (Line of sight, etc.).
So, yes, terrain would block line of sight. 
I would not enforce in Chainmail a position that the field commander and units must remain unaware of the fact that this is an illusion.
I'd force the player to at least remember that it is so, and so yes, it might be helpful for a referee to have it marked but require the player to at least remember it.
If the opposing player does remember it's an illusion, the units would know it's an illusion. (Their field commander has access to the same sort of guidelines for battle as you do.)
To explain it ... "Ah, man! Now we need to rush and touch it to dispel it and give folks line of sight!"

     B) Make terrain appear to not exist:

 I can cover up a swamp or river, but the other player would still know it's there. What's the use? How is that kind of use tracked? Is it the ref's job to keep track of all that terrain?

Terrain that appears not to exist still exists.
Even if the spell makes it seem like there's a clear path where there was once Woods, all the guidelines for Woods and movement apply when a force tries to ...
... move through it
... send a cloudkill through it
... fire a cannonball through it
... and so on. 

Yes, use the referee for these sorts of things and make the opposing player try to keep track of these things.

Success is not always who the better fighter is toe-to-toe.

2.) Phantasmal Forces

The creation of the apparition of a unit or creature for four turns, maxi-duration.

So, what does "apparition" mean here? Is it an illusion? An actual summoning would be too powerful for a Complexity 2-spell. 
But if they're illusions, there's no point in creating them, as the other player would know.

The one big use I can think of which would work with the game is, creating units which impose a Morale check on the enemy ("fear aura" we call it), like dragons, (super) heroes, and the like. Again, for a C2-spell I think that's rather powerful?
Another idea I had: Units could be included in the army list "for free" as illusions and behave like normal units for the duration until they engage the enemy and they find out it's just an illusion, then the spell ends.

The spell creates an apparitional force/creature that fights like the real thing.
Remember: "In order to cast and maintain any spell, a Wizard must be both stationary and undisturbed by attack upon his person."
So, Wizards get only one spell at a time.
Cast Phantasmal Forces and in the meantime no Fire Ball spells, no Lightning Bolt spells, no other spells, and no movement.
Besides, the spell ends after four turns no matter what.
And it can be countered/dispelled.
This spell is not over-powered.
(Even while 2e is without complexity guidelines.)

3.) Polymorph

This allows the user to change himself into the semblance of anything of from his own size to something as large as even a giant. It lasts until the user changes himself back or it is countered.

Again, if I cast that spell during the battle, the other player will know and since the effect is purely cosmetic, what's the point? Is it (again) used to morph into a unit with "fear aura" to cause Morale checks? But with C4, it's easier and handier to cast Phantasmal Forces.

If used before the battle, the Wizard could be deployed using a Proxy miniature and move over the battlefield either overrated or underrated by the enemy, but when would the other player get the idea to counter that spell?

Bottom Line:
At the moment, I see Hallucinatory Terrain as a "Block LoS" spell, Phantasmal Forces and Polymorph as "Break Morale" spells. 

This is not in 2e.
However, this is not that powerful.
I take semblance to mean, act like in every way.
So it's not cosmetic.

[hamurai]

Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Concerning Phantasmal Forces: I know, the wizard needs to be stationary, but I could have him hide behind a terrain piece, cast the spell and create a dragon, fly it to the enemy and attack them until destroyed/dispelled or until the 4 turns are up. Then I can create a new dragon. Since "Wizards can become invisible and remain so until they attack", I'd need someone or something able to detect hidden creatures to even be able to attack and disturb the wizard who keeps creating Phantasmal Forces. (Spell-casting doesn't seem to break this invisibility.)
And now for the really strange idea: Sure, while PF lasts the wizard can't cast other spells or shoots missiles. But what if I create a phantasmal wizard? Shouldn't they be able to do just that?

Polymorph: Complexity 4, even if it does actually turn the wizard into another creature, what's the point? Phantasmal Forces creates another creature which means the wizard doesn't have to move into battle himself, and PF is only C2. If polymorphed, I effectively trade the wizard for another unit, don't I? Unless I polymorph into a unit which can see hidden enemies, I don't know why I should.

[Vile Traveller]

I agree with Mordorandor's points. I have only read Chainmail and can only interpret from what is written.

As for Polymorph vs. Phantasmal Forces, I think the former is more powerful because it is real rather than phantasmal. Also, it can allow the wizard to do things other than attack, such as escape, become invulnerable to certain attacks, etc. It also lasts as long as the wizard wants, unless countered. Though I don't think there's much in it, so I could certainly see the case for downgrading it to a 3, maybe.

I'm actually not clear on whether apparitions disappear when touched, anyone more experienced with the system care to jump in?

[Mordorandor]

Dec 29, 2022 0:59:22 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Concerning Phantasmal Forces: I know, the wizard needs to be stationary, but I could have him hide behind a terrain piece, cast the spell and create a dragon, fly it to the enemy and attack them until destroyed/dispelled or until the 4 turns are up. Then I can create a new dragon. Since "Wizards can become invisible and remain so until they attack", I'd need someone or something able to detect hidden creatures to even be able to attack and disturb the wizard who keeps creating Phantasmal Forces. (Spell-casting doesn't seem to break this invisibility.)

I'm happy to expose others to the swirling mess of my mindscape!

While some may see it as a stretch to see all spell-use in a wargame as an "attack" by the Wizard (which I do), I especially see Phantasmal Forces as an attack. I'd say the Wizard is visible and cannot become invisible while using this spell.

Also, a single arrow fired in the direction of a Wizard is an attack and would cause the spell to end, no?

And now for the really strange idea: Sure, while PF lasts the wizard can't cast other spells or shoots missiles. But what if I create a phantasmal wizard? Shouldn't they be able to do just that?

The Wizard apparition plays like a Wizard, in the same way as a phantasmal unit of heavy foot Men still plays as a unit of heavy foot Men. If the phantasmal Wizard is made to use such a spell, it must concentrate as well.

One might ask, what about the infinite regress of apparitional Wizards running like a chain along the battlefield, each giving rise to the other through its own version of Phantasmal Forces? Wizards already have unlimited range, so, have at it, and surprise me as to why you'd want to do that!

However, this might be a useful tactic for "lower level" magic-users to extend their range ...?

Or one could leverage semantics and talk of Heroes, Super Heroes, and Wizards being "classes" of creature, and not creatures themselves. So perhaps Wizards are unable to replicate these kinds of figures with the spell.

Polymorph: Complexity 4, even if it does actually turn the wizard into another creature, what's the point? Phantasmal Forces creates another creature which means the wizard doesn't have to move into battle himself, and PF is only C2. If polymorphed, I effectively trade the wizard for another unit, don't I? Unless I polymorph into a unit which can see hidden enemies, I don't know why I should.

Are individual fantastic figures considered units? The way I see it, the Wizard would be traded in for another individual fantastic figure, which could then join a unit (if possible in the guidelines). I suppose I don't see any of this as a problem. A creative condition to "break the system" is a feature and not a bug in my eyes.

[delta]

This is a good thread. I've been wrestling with the same issues around hallucinatory terrain in my own game recently.

Note that the 1st printing of Chainmail only had the first 6 spells (and 2nd had 8); later ones seem back-ported from D&D, with complexity identical to D&D levels. I can imagine those later spells not being playtested so well in context here. Anyway, here's my thoughts starting with the ones that seem easier to me:

Phantasmal Forces: The first spell in Chainmail, the progenitor of all illusions, and the only one of the trio in the 1st printing. I'm guessing this made a unit that was functionally real. Maybe it alluded to The Dead Men of Dunharrow at the end of Lord of the Rings? And it set the precedent for O/AD&D illusion spells to effectively do real damage due to shock or whatever. (Open question for me: how big a "unit" can you make?)

Polymorph: Also guessing this let the wizard get the real physical benefits of the creature. The "semblance" language may permit ad-hoc rulings to omit special magical powers, similar but not identical to the language in D&D which predates it.

Hallucinatory Terrain: This is the one I simply can't see how to make work from the written text alone. If it forced enemies to deal with it like it was real terrain (like my interpretation of the other illusions), that would be a different story, but it clearly doesn't.

I'm assuming that the size is just one piece of terrain, whatever you have available already on your tabletop. Given the rule instead that it has no effect on contact (from D&D earlier), it is in some way elegant that it dissipates instantly -- just remove the terrain piece on contact, and you don't have to track if one unit or side knows about the illusion or not. Following this mechanical elegance, I'd assume the intent that just any active unit that contacts it makes it go away. (That is, not read too much into the word "living"; wights, ghouls, zombies, phantasmal forces etc. make it disappear, but not a volley of arrows, catapult shot, fireball, etc.; finding the exact keyword language to express that is nontrivial; in AD&D the clause became an "intelligent" creature, still not perfect).

The only way I can think to make this work in practice is to have the controlling player in advance set up an extra piece of terrain, or take one away, and leave a written record, removing/replacing the piece in question when the time comes. But that's super clunky, b/c the wizard starts off immobile, and it's not clear how to fairly generate the disappeared terrain you're taking away w/o the other player knowing. Maybe this spell only makes sense with a 3rd party judge involved. (?)

I'll point out that the disappearing nature was consistent in OD&D, 1E AD&D, and B/X. It went away in 2E AD&D, which let individual creatures succeed at "disbelieving" it, and ignore it, while the illusion itself persisted; that rule was kept in later editions -- I'm actually very torn about which method is better there. The disappearing-act seems more elegant in tabletop play, but the persistent-illusion seems more in line with a lot of pulp fiction & fantasy that I've seen. I'm very torn about how to play that particular spell.

[delta]

Dec 28, 2022 21:30:26 GMT -6 Mordorandor said:

Ok, let's say it did exist in 2e ...
Terrain is described in the guidelines as being 3" x 5 " postcard size.
Assuming the size of one postcard, make one of these postcards disappear or appear (place one on the playing area).
If you want to make existing terrain bigger, place another 3 x 5 postcard next to one of similar, already existing, terrain. 

This is a minor detail, but I found it very helpful when someone else put forward the following interpretation:

- Tabletop terrain pieces are expected to be on the scale of 2' x 2' pieces of masonite (per Introduction, 4th paragraph).
- The index cards (in Terrain Selection) are just for that, a method for randomly selecting which of the aforementioned terrain pieces in your collection get used.
- Why custom cards here, instead of e.g. dice? So your cards and terrain piece counts match up perfectly, and you never run out of existing terrain based on repeating die-rolls (e.g., as I've had happen in my own games using a dice-method).

[rustic313]

If one is using a judge then any can be readily adjudicated... The terrain or phantom unit disappears when contacted.

Even without a judge, I think one could simply declare "I am using hallucinatory terrain, one of the terrain pieces I am putting out is fake." Then mark the terrain via secret note or a post it note on the back of the card and remove it when contacted.

Same technique for a fake unit.

Even if the opponent knows some terrain or a unit is fake, they won't know which one until it is contacted and thus have to respect the possibility.

Of course such depends on gentlemanly play. But there are simple card games which assume players will properly follow rules with hidden info (such as breaking trump suits).