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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 30, 2023 15:28:46 GMT -6
I’m not very familiar with Iron Falcon. My impression is that it’s meant to be closer to a literal retro-clone (of which edition I’m not sure). I believe it is intended to cover the LBBs+GH. I had some discussions with ChrisG during its development phase (circa 2015?). My recollection is that his approach was to be practical over exactly precise. So it has a few -isms (e.g., "d-notation") that weren't actually in GH, but nobody other than a OD&D rules buff would notice. Overall it's a great re-rendering. |
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2023 15:38:07 GMT -6
I’ll take a closer look at Iron Falcon. Between its several editions and its having gone commercial, S&W is presently not very attractive for my purposes. The commercial part could be nice if it gives the local shop products to put on the shelves, but it’s not such a convenient frame of reference for people with a more casual interest.
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Post by dwayanu on Jan 30, 2023 15:45:46 GMT -6
I don’t know of what quality these days are WotC’s official OD&D PDFs, but I’m inclined to like the clarity and other features that retro-clones bring (especially for newcomers to old-school D&D).
If I were in charge at WotC, I’d want to make the TSR-era catalog available POD. A lot folks still like physical books, and it’s an easy step once you’ve gone to the effort of making a decent PDF.
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Parzival
Level 6 Magician
Is a little Stir Crazy this year...
Posts: 399
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Post by Parzival on Jan 30, 2023 16:27:02 GMT -6
I have WotC’s PDFs of books I, II, & III. The scans are excellent, and the text is fully searchable and copyable. The only difference are the covers, which WotC had redone because of copyright issues with the original cover art.
In general, I’ve found the scans of the WotC TSR products to be well done.
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Post by tdenmark on Jan 31, 2023 12:22:55 GMT -6
What was that annotated version of OD&D that someone was working on? If Wizbro really cared about D&D they'd contact that author and work with him to create a special edition OD&D with cyclopedic annotation and history of everything in the game and publish it as a single-volume edition for the 50th anniversary next year. Hire some artists that do the old school thing really well, like those who work with Goodman Games or do art in the Old School D&D fanzines.
If they did that right it'd become my favorite edition.
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Post by hamurai on Jan 31, 2023 23:11:00 GMT -6
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Post by Piper on Feb 1, 2023 9:23:07 GMT -6
What was that annotated version of OD&D that someone was working on? There’s my OD&D Annotated at the link below. It’s a more casual, as opposed to scholarly, work. I basically go through the three volumes and throw out sukoshi bits from the perspective of a player who bought and played the game in the 1970’s (hardly a unique perspective around this forum) and who knew Gary (also not unusual around here). lh3.google.com/u/0/d/1LXnViRDV72xHE2OGJKtHgvtqmnTegGCB=w500-h374-p-k-nu-iv1ETA: My power is out and I’m doing this by ‘phone. The link above doesn’t seem to work, I’ll try again from my desktop after power is restored. |
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Post by captainjapan on Feb 1, 2023 10:42:56 GMT -6
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Post by rredmond on Feb 1, 2023 11:28:06 GMT -6
Looks great, and there's a name I haven't seen in a while, anyone know how Greg Backus is doing?
Thanks for sharing!
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ThrorII
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 117 
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Post by ThrorII on Feb 1, 2023 14:49:39 GMT -6
I’m not very familiar with Iron Falcon. My impression is that it’s meant to be closer to a literal retro-clone (of which edition I’m not sure). Iron Falcon is a close copy of OD&D +Supplement I. Some of the numbers are off by 1 or 2 (XP per level, to-hit progressions) for difference, but it is a pretty loyal rendition. |
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Post by atlantean on Feb 10, 2023 18:25:42 GMT -6
Iron Falcon is my game of choice now. The new Handbook of Monsters has a great selection taken from various old school sources. It also fixes some mistakes in the rulebook i.e. some monsters only hit by magic weapons weren't so indicated now corrected and the HD of skeletons and zombies changed from 1/2 and 1 to 1 and 2 respectively. I wish that the old level titles were used (veteran, warrior etc.) but it's a very close simulacra.
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 11, 2023 11:45:35 GMT -6
Iron Falcon is my game of choice now. The new Handbook of Monsters has a great selection taken from various old school sources. It also fixes some mistakes in the rulebook i.e. some monsters only hit by magic weapons weren't so indicated now corrected and the HD of skeletons and zombies changed from 1/2 and 1 to 1 and 2 respectively. I wish that the old level titles were used (veteran, warrior etc.) but it's a very close simulacra. I’m slightly curious as to the rationale for calling the original (OD&D) HD of skeletons and zombies a ‘mistake’. I’ve started reading IF, and it’s clear that Chris sometimes presents his own preferred variants rather than pursuing fidelity to the original. Along the way, I think his writing has yielded some mistakes in terms of conveying his own intent, but that remains to be seen when he makes choices for revision. |
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 11, 2023 12:01:49 GMT -6
My understanding is that 13th Age does not replicate 4E’s grid-based combat game, which for many was a large part of its appeal.
From the 13th Age SRD: “Each creature has a general, relative position on the battlefield. Combat is dynamic and fluid, so miniatures can’t really represent where a character ‘really is.’”
The bits and bobs in its own combat system may well please 4E fans more than does 5E — and I’m pretty sure the classes and powers do — but I gather there’s a fan effort to produce something that’s more of a retro-clone.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 11, 2023 17:11:57 GMT -6
I’m slightly curious as to the rationale for calling the original (OD&D) HD of skeletons and zombies a ‘mistake’. I’ve started reading IF, and it’s clear that Chris sometimes presents his own preferred variants rather than pursuing fidelity to the original. Along the way, I think his writing has yielded some mistakes in terms of conveying his own intent, but that remains to be seen when he makes choices for revision. FWIW, I'd probably lean on "choices" over "mistakes" (two separate things there). Certainly, all clone authors are faced with choices because OD&D is not one fixed thing... but I agree with the gist. |
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 12, 2023 10:22:19 GMT -6
Thanks! I didn’t know of them having been higher in earlier printings.
I gather that Chris has a Gygaxian reference for how he’s treating Elf F/MU and other multi-class figures (which is per neither OD&D nor AD&D). Without illuminating commentary in the text, I don’t view it as serving a scholarly role, but simply as his game. If it brings enjoyment to others, so much the better; I can’t see it as a context of ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’ choices.
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Post by jeffb on Feb 12, 2023 11:58:52 GMT -6
My understanding is that 13th Age does not replicate 4E’s grid-based combat game, which for many was a large part of its appeal. From the 13th Age SRD: “Each creature has a general, relative position on the battlefield. Combat is dynamic and fluid, so miniatures can’t really represent where a character ‘really is.’” The bits and bobs in its own combat system may well please 4E fans more than does 5E — and I’m pretty sure the classes and powers do — but I gather there’s a fan effort to produce something that’s more of a retro-clone. 13th Age is my personal fave "version" of D&D amongst post TSR modern D&D versions and alts (Pathfinder, etc). I loved a great many things about 4E but I simplified the heck out of it, to avoid the grid, make combat run more smoothly/much faster, while still retaining what I feel are the best parts of 4E (unified system with math formulas that make anything quick and easy to build/re-skin, heroic/competent starting PCs, removal of Vancian magic, fresh takes on lore/cosmology, scaling monsters, and some others). I sort of "13th Aged" 4E, before 13th Age became a thing. I'm not much up on the 13th Age goings on these days but if there is some sort of 13A/RC work being done out there, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction! phantomtim may also be in the loop regarding this..? |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 12, 2023 20:08:52 GMT -6
My understanding is that 13th Age does not replicate 4E’s grid-based combat game, which for many was a large part of its appeal. From the 13th Age SRD: “Each creature has a general, relative position on the battlefield. Combat is dynamic and fluid, so miniatures can’t really represent where a character ‘really is.’” The bits and bobs in its own combat system may well please 4E fans more than does 5E — and I’m pretty sure the classes and powers do — but I gather there’s a fan effort to produce something that’s more of a retro-clone. 13th Age is my personal fave "version" of D&D amongst post TSR modern D&D versions and alts (Pathfinder, etc). I loved a great many things about 4E but I simplified the heck out of it, to avoid the grid, make combat run more smoothly/much faster, while still retaining what I feel are the best parts of 4E (unified system with math formulas that make anything quick and easy to build/re-skin, heroic/competent starting PCs, removal of Vancian magic, fresh takes on lore/cosmology, scaling monsters, and some others). I sort of "13th Aged" 4E, before 13th Age became a thing. I'm not much up on the 13th Age goings on these days but if there is some sort of 13A/RC work being done out there, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction! phantomtim may also be in the loop regarding this..? I haven't had a chance to play 13th Age yet, but I have recently started reading it because I'm hearing so many good things about it. |
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Feb 13, 2023 20:30:20 GMT -6
I haven't had a chance to play 13th Age yet, but I have recently started reading it because I'm hearing so many good things about it. I don't want to derail this thread, but if you ever want to start a thread about 13th Age, feel free to tag me—I'm always happy to chat about my favorite game! |
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Feb 13, 2023 20:35:50 GMT -6
My understanding is that 13th Age does not replicate 4E’s grid-based combat game, which for many was a large part of its appeal. From the 13th Age SRD: “Each creature has a general, relative position on the battlefield. Combat is dynamic and fluid, so miniatures can’t really represent where a character ‘really is.’” The bits and bobs in its own combat system may well please 4E fans more than does 5E — and I’m pretty sure the classes and powers do — but I gather there’s a fan effort to produce something that’s more of a retro-clone. I'm not much up on the 13th Age goings on these days but if there is some sort of 13A/RC work being done out there, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction! phantomtim may also be in the loop regarding this..? My suspicion is that dwayanu was referring to a 4e retroclone. If so, that's likely the Orcus 4e retroclone. You can download the preview version over at The Piazza. If you're looking for a game that's based on 13th Age's Archmage Engine, but has more of a dungeon-delving, old-school feel, King of Dungeons might be something you're interested in. |
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Post by countingwizard on Feb 14, 2023 9:08:23 GMT -6
I would really like to vote for both B/X and OD&D. I only run/play OD&D, but having prepped so many campaigns I've read through B/X rules several times and those rules are just straight up clean, simple, organized, and flexible in ways that none of the other rulesets are. It has guidance for everything. BECMI Cyclopedia might be up there too, but something about that product line just doesn't fit right with me.
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Post by countingwizard on Feb 14, 2023 9:14:23 GMT -6
Iron Falcon is my game of choice now. The new Handbook of Monsters has a great selection taken from various old school sources. It also fixes some mistakes in the rulebook i.e. some monsters only hit by magic weapons weren't so indicated now corrected and the HD of skeletons and zombies changed from 1/2 and 1 to 1 and 2 respectively. I wish that the old level titles were used (veteran, warrior etc.) but it's a very close simulacra. I’m slightly curious as to the rationale for calling the original (OD&D) HD of skeletons and zombies a ‘mistake’. I’ve started reading IF, and it’s clear that Chris sometimes presents his own preferred variants rather than pursuing fidelity to the original. Along the way, I think his writing has yielded some mistakes in terms of conveying his own intent, but that remains to be seen when he makes choices for revision. The first printing of the rules lists Skeletons and Zombies as 1HD & 2HD respectively. Every subsequent printing has the 1/2 and 1. Not sure what the intent was, but it makes zombies as hard to kill as you would expect them to be, but completely avoidable due to their speed. If it was nerfed, it might be that higher level magic-user players were building armies of zombies that would just flatten living armies due to their durability and never retreating. |
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tedopon
Newly-Registered User 
Posts: 86
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Post by tedopon on Feb 14, 2023 9:22:26 GMT -6
I also love 13A, but I still find the number inflation absurd. I quit running it a couple years ago because after the PCs hit 5 or 6 level, it becomes Barrel of Dice Simulator. We tinkered with using averages, but that isn't as fun considering the whole point of the game is to mostly remove/downplay the 4e "Tactical" feel and using the averages just feels like you're playing something like Gloomhaven (which I really enjoy, but it's just a boardgame).
We have incorporated a ton of ideas and mechanics from 13A into basically everything else we play, though.
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Post by jeffb on Feb 14, 2023 17:25:01 GMT -6
I'm not much up on the 13th Age goings on these days but if there is some sort of 13A/RC work being done out there, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction! phantomtim may also be in the loop regarding this..? My suspicion is that dwayanu was referring to a 4e retroclone. If so, that's likely the Orcus 4e retroclone. You can download the preview version over at The Piazza. If you're looking for a game that's based on 13th Age's Archmage Engine, but has more of a dungeon-delving, old-school feel, King of Dungeons might be something you're interested in. Thanks Tim. I am familiar with Orcus, but not King of Dungeons- that went on my wish list for my next round of purchases! I'm not necessarily all about dungeon delving (though I do enjoy it), but the rest of the game looks worth investigating. |
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Post by jeffb on Feb 14, 2023 17:36:03 GMT -6
13th Age is my personal fave "version" of D&D amongst post TSR modern D&D versions and alts (Pathfinder, etc). I loved a great many things about 4E but I simplified the heck out of it, to avoid the grid, make combat run more smoothly/much faster, while still retaining what I feel are the best parts of 4E (unified system with math formulas that make anything quick and easy to build/re-skin, heroic/competent starting PCs, removal of Vancian magic, fresh takes on lore/cosmology, scaling monsters, and some others). I sort of "13th Aged" 4E, before 13th Age became a thing. I'm not much up on the 13th Age goings on these days but if there is some sort of 13A/RC work being done out there, I'd love to be pointed in the right direction! phantomtim may also be in the loop regarding this..? I haven't had a chance to play 13th Age yet, but I have recently started reading it because I'm hearing so many good things about it. There are some good older threads elsewhere here in the forums. The game has tons of material worth stealing even if it's not something you would want to play by the book. However the most complicated aspect of the game are (some of) the classes and powers/abilities, and there is a great free fix for that which I used with the kids/teens and I prefer it myself. The game is very light compared to 3E , 4E, and even "lighter" than 5E. 13th Age Companions at 13th Age dot orgThe world of the Dragon Empire (the default setting) is also worth a serious look. It's high on speculation , rumor and lore, and low on absolutes, facts, and canon. It's meant to be completely different for not only every DM, but every campaign the DM runs. It has a healthy dose of Arduin, Blackmoor, and Glorantha along with many D&D tropes. It may be the best part of the game. And with that, I'll also not veer further off course. |
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Post by simrion on Feb 14, 2023 18:04:58 GMT -6
‘best’ as meaning “what I turn to most often” brought me to B/X. From its debut, that impressed me as a convenient presentation of the essential core of OD&D (including key bits from Supplement I). B/X has aged well. It is also my go to. Everything about B/X from the clarity of the writing, to the simplification without being too simple, the aesthetics of the books, and the adventures made to go with it. In particular B2 and X1. And it has the best character sheet. And IMNSHO some of the best covers, love me some Erol Otus. Some of the unofficial Companion books out there int he wild are pretty darned good additions too! |
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 4, 2024 14:38:12 GMT -6
What was that annotated version of OD&D that someone was working on? There’s my OD&D Annotated at the link below. It’s a more casual, as opposed to scholarly, work. I basically go through the three volumes and throw out sukoshi bits from the perspective of a player who bought and played the game in the 1970’s (hardly a unique perspective around this forum) and who knew Gary (also not unusual around here). lh3.google.com/u/0/d/1LXnViRDV72xHE2OGJKtHgvtqmnTegGCB=w500-h374-p-k-nu-iv1ETA: My power is out and I’m doing this by ‘phone. The link above doesn’t seem to work, I’ll try again from my desktop after power is restored. Did you ever get your power restored? |
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Post by cavalier973 on May 17, 2024 12:28:47 GMT -6
I voted “BECMI”, but there are things in each edition that shine.
4e was the first tabletop game I purchased and played, and its “Nentir Vale” campaign setting is probably my favorite.
I am planning to use it for an 0D&D game.
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 87
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Post by phantomtim on Jun 1, 2024 2:06:50 GMT -6
4e was the first tabletop game I purchased and played, and its “Nentir Vale” campaign setting is probably my favorite. I am planning to use it for an 0D&D game. I love the Nentir Vale setting as well! I took a break from TTRPGs for nearly 20 years and came back with a Nentir Vale campaign—it was a blast! I'd be interested to hear more about how you're planning to run a Nentir Vale game using OD&D. Will you add any Nentir Vale races or classes, for example? I don't want to derail this topic, but if you happen to start a new topic for this, please link to hit here so I'll see it. Thanks in advance! |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 10, 2024 13:38:02 GMT -6
ETA: My power is out and I’m doing this by ‘phone. The link above doesn’t seem to work, I’ll try again from my desktop after power is restored. I'm just worried about Piper. His power has been out since Feb. 1 2023. That is a long time to go without power. |
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Post by rustic313 on Aug 3, 2024 22:17:55 GMT -6
I voted “BECMI”, but there are things in each edition that shine. Agreed. My ranking would be: TOP TIER:#1: Holmes. A clean presentation of the rules. If it didn't cap out at such low level it'd be nearly perfect. #2: B/X. Its a complete, playable game. I don't love BECMI past level 12 or so ("name" level). If viewed as an extension of B/X I'd put BECMI here. On its own, BECMI would be bottom of the mid-tier. MID TIER:#3: 5E. This is heresy, but 5E is well put together. If you want to game with people outside our OSR niche its safe to find a group, modules and materials. #4: OD&D LBB. Also great, and I love it, but requires an experienced DM to run it. Organization is a bit of a mess and lots of grey areas. But quite playable, easily house ruled, and a solid choice. Easily top tier with the right DM and group. BOTTOM TIER:#5: AD&D: I'll have a soft spot in my heart for AD&D as its the first RPG I played, but man is it a mess. These days it does nothing for me that B/X, 3LBB, or 5E can't do better. Although the high gygaxian prose in the DMG is delightful. Some great modules which are easily ported to B/X or 3LBB. #6: 3E/3.5: Lots of published materials and a few good ideas but overall not my cup of tea. The very latest splatbooks were moving in an interesting direction but that road leads to 5E which is just straight up better. Also, the SRD OGL/CCL was a huge gift to the industry and hobbyists which wouldn't exist without 3E. #7: 4E: Was this an RPG or a tactical XCOM style video game? While forgettable there are a few things which I actually liked: Healing surges (stolen for my homebrew game), at-will powers to spice up lower level characters, and more deliberate discussion of roles/niche protection. Actually upon reflecting, if you forced me to pick one, I'd probably prefer to play 4E than 3.5, but I have to give the ease of access to the rules via SRD a nod for 3.5. #8: 2E: All the complexity of AD&D with none of the charm. But it did give us Baldur's Gate so there is that. |
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